jhauswirth

i don't use layout 2 and had bad experiences with layout1, opened layout 2 just to check and still seems to
have problems with big Paper sizes with Big 3d models.

But your logic in the workflow is correct except in one litle detail: fluid workflow.

Let me explain, the workflow you describe without layout can take as much as 1 minute to do, change your mind about the view 10 times, and you lose 10 minutes. But open a 20Mg skp file in layout in a A1 paper size, and every single action you can do in layout (even drawing a line) doubles the response time (or even more), that can turn a 1h work into a 2h pain, and worst than that, completly breaks the work ritm.

So what do you think it's worst?

P.S.: i'm talking by memory, because as i said i don't use it, so if i missed something in this version2 forget what i said.

notareal i could kiss you right now!!
i was thinking that i was gooing crazy because i tought i read something about this somewhere and couldn't remember the book or article, and you gave me something even better: a tutorial!!!

thanks!

David

Thanks for the help olishea
No one awswer this for so long that i tough no one knew. Anyway thanks again. That's normally what i try to do but it's a pain and sometimes i don't een have time, so i was hoping there would be some trick we could do in the render like using procedural textures to "randomise" the paterns.
Well i think this means no shortcuts here...lol (i shoudn't be so lazy:P)

Thanks

David

i promisse to use this the next time i model for Google Earth...

YESS!!!

What great news this is!! i would love to see ebay floded with lots of people selling their used autodesk stuff now.
I allways though that this law was wrong and made me feel like (some) software developers think they are better or more important than anyone else, better than architects (imagine not beeing able to resell your house because that "helps" architects getting more jobs, and keeping the prices for projects low), car manufacters/designers/engineers (not beeing able to resell your used car to "help" the market beeing competitive), eletronic engineers (imagine not beeing able to resell your used pc parts, phones, gadgets to "help" funding inovation research), etc etc.

And they have to keep in mind that this prices will help people that other way woudn't have much chance to buy their software (frelancers like me could buy a used copy of 3DS for personal use/work for example). This can even helpe them raising the future user and updates buyers client base.

David

damn you stinkie...lol

the images are too blurred for me
What's the render times stinkie? don't think for this type of render it compensate to use indigo

David

Hi guys

Does anyone know a good tutorial ou tips about solving the problem with textures with big aerial views? At close range i can solve tiling but at very far away views (like an aerial view seeing a big full buidling) the tiling (from the floor for example) gets notice too much.
So if anyone now how to solve this, in the materials/render setup or in post process i'll really apreciate the help.

Thanks

David

Thanks Gaeius

In Photoshop the Blur focal distance will help you focus the object that you based on the distance that PS is reading from the depth pass. So as long as you push further the far he will focus. The as i said before is where you control the amount of blur but sometimes you'll want to pussh it up just a litle bit on the blur so that doesn't get so undefined and can't do it in the lens blur menu. then after doing the blur, duplicate that blur layer, and youl'll see that the blur got a litle stronger, now start reducing the opacitty of the top one, seeing real time the blur getting stronger or weaker.

Anyone want to share more tips?:)

P.S: there 2 more images below showing the blur focal distance afecting the image using the depth pass (first focusing near objects- car and tree; 2nd focusing, midle objects - house; and 3rd focusing far away objects - back trees).

@gaieus said:

...a "community tutorial" copied here from this topic.
Thanks DacaD!

Hi guys.

So it is 2 diferent tutorials for 2 ways to work with dofs, the first one is done in photoshop and follows the basic rules; the second one is done in NET.Paint because it's free and open source and it's much easier than GIMP to understand and pick up (think of it as a photoshop with just the basic tools you need). So let´s start:

Photoshop:
1- Open the base image and select all and copy/paste the all image again (ctrl+J) (never work on the base layer)
2- Open the depth map, select all, copy, close the image
3- Now in your top image layer add a layer mask (on the bottom of the layer bialog box you have a square button, or go to the menu Layer-LAyer Mask - Reveal all
4- In that image layer you now have 2 squares, one for the base image other empty, so select the first square (image) then go to the channels menu (top in the same layer dialog box) turn on the new empty square, and paste your depth map
5- when you go back ro the layers menu you'll see the image more red, it's normal, now seletc in the image laeyr the first square of the base image, and got o filter - blur - lens blur
6- In the new menu that shows choose has source the Layer Mask (so to blur things out in the image, the app will use the layer mask of this layer that has the detph map)
7- Now you just have to use 2 slides: The blur focal distance (does what the name says...lol) and the radius (controls the amount of blur). Keep in mind that you shouldn't use too much of this because the good DOF will be subtle most of the times.
8- After that press ok and delete just your layer mask of the image layer (it won't affect your image). Now redo the blur and save as much times as you need with diferents results, and then see in that order outside of PS the diferent images you've made and choose the bes for you (this will be the best way for you to see when overuse or don't use much blur, and will also gain experience controling the amount of blur needed)

BONUS TIP: Not beeing DOF related, you also have to keep in mind that 90% of the time you should postprocess your render images. Why? because in renders normally the colours will be washed out, shadows and lights without too much contrast, etc. So don't use your RAW renders.

9- To quickly push the colours of your image, beside doing the usual "auto tone", "auto colour", and "auto contrast" (of course sometime you can't use it but i used in this example), open your choosed final blur version, and duplicate the layer again (ctrl+J)
10- Now in the top layer put the blending for the layer in soft ligh, and play a bit with his oppacity but not too much (know the image will be darker but don't worry with that now because the colours will already look more alive and strong)
11- Go to image - adjustments - shadows/highlights
12- Put the shadows around 15-30 and the highlights around 40-50 (you can try this directly on the top layer or merge the 2 layers down before this last step)
13- That's it. See the 1st picture above for comparison between the orignal image and the final (notice the colour tones and the blur, that here it's exagerated on purpuse, on normal use should be much softer)

The next Tutorial, doesn't follow these "normal" rules, and because i used NET.Paint for this i tryed to be more easy and also able to do in any other app.

1- Open the base image, and duplicate the base layer (again, because you shouldn't work on the base layer)
2- Create a new layer, open your depth map, select all, copy, close and paste in the new layer created (the net.paint doesn't do this automatacly...i think)
3- Now on your depth layer go to adjustments - Brightness/Contrast and raise both but more on contrast (this is to diferenciate better the diferent tones of grey)
4- In this tutorial i'll blur the house and focus on things near (but you can focus on anything), so with the help of the diferent grey tones select the dark grey from tree with the magic wand, and put the selection mode in "add (union)", and keep selection until most of the tree and the parts near to the camera are selected (this should include the dwarf too)
5- Go to Edit - Invert Selection
6- Hide the depth layer and select the image layer (you'll see that you'll keep the same selected parts in the image, so we're basic using the depth map as a alpha channel)
7- go to Effects - Blur - Unfocus and put a low value (between 1 and 5 should be enough)
8- And that's it, but for pushing the colours and a bit more contrast, merge all layers down and then duplicate this layer for the final blur image
9- with the top layer selected go to layer properties (f4) and put the blending mode to overlay) and play with the opacity (not much and don't worry about beeing to dark)
10- go to adjustments - levels , and push up a bit the output levels vertical slide.
11- save the final result and that's it

As you can see it's pretty simple doing this and there's not one only right way to do it. You don't really need a depth map but it helps a lot to select things or to use as source for the blur. Remember that doing the dof this way has two big advantges: more control, and much faster dof (render dof will allways raise your render time greatly and this will just take 5m to do).Ialso like more the final colours of PS tutorial image (more experience with PS) but the dof in the NET.Paint it's better (because i exagerated that on PS for exagerating greatly the diferences). The colour enhancement tip works better with images with trees or green parts. Feel free to correct any mistakes and share any more tips to enhance this tutorils. Hope it helps

David

No problem Gaieus

As you said, leave the note and link in this topic too so that people can follow, but try to put something on the title or something (like comunity Tutorial or something like that) to notice that this is a "open source" (lol) tutorial that anyone can change and share more tips.

David

Hi guys.

So it is 2 diferent tutorials for 2 ways to work with dofs, the first one is done in photoshop and follows the basic rules; the second one is done in NET.Paint because it's free and open source and it's much easier than GIMP to understand and pick up (think of it as a photoshop with just the basic tools you need). So let´s start:

Photoshop:
1- Open the base image and select all and copy/paste the all image again (ctrl+J) (never work on the base layer)
2- Open the depth map, select all, copy, close the image
3- Now in your top image layer add a layer mask (on the bottom of the layer bialog box you have a square button, or go to the menu Layer-LAyer Mask - Reveal all
4- In that image layer you now have 2 squares, one for the base image other empty, so select the first square (image) then go to the channels menu (top in the same layer dialog box) turn on the new empty square, and paste your depth map
5- when you go back ro the layers menu you'll see the image more red, it's normal, now seletc in the image laeyr the first square of the base image, and got o filter - blur - lens blur
6- In the new menu that shows choose has source the Layer Mask (so to blur things out in the image, the app will use the layer mask of this layer that has the detph map)
7- Now you just have to use 2 slides: The blur focal distance (does what the name says...lol) and the radius (controls the amount of blur). Keep in mind that you shouldn't use too much of this because the good DOF will be subtle most of the times.
8- After that press ok and delete just your layer mask of the image layer (it won't affect your image). Now redo the blur and save as much times as you need with diferents results, and then see in that order outside of PS the diferent images you've made and choose the bes for you (this will be the best way for you to see when overuse or don't use much blur, and will also gain experience controling the amount of blur needed)

BONUS TIP: Not beeing DOF related, you also have to keep in mind that 90% of the time you should postprocess your render images. Why? because in renders normally the colours will be washed out, shadows and lights without too much contrast, etc. So don't use your RAW renders.

9- To quickly push the colours of your image, beside doing the usual "auto tone", "auto colour", and "auto contrast" (of course sometime you can't use it but i used in this example), open your choosed final blur version, and duplicate the layer again (ctrl+J)
10- Now in the top layer put the blending for the layer in soft ligh, and play a bit with his oppacity but not too much (know the image will be darker but don't worry with that now because the colours will already look more alive and strong)
11- Go to image - adjustments - shadows/highlights
12- Put the shadows around 15-30 and the highlights around 40-50 (you can try this directly on the top layer or merge the 2 layers down before this last step)
13- That's it. See the 1st picture above for comparison between the orignal image and the final (notice the colour tones and the blur, that here it's exagerated on purpuse, on normal use should be much softer)

The next Tutorial, doesn't follow these "normal" rules, and because i used NET.Paint for this i tryed to be more easy and also able to do in any other app.

1- Open the base image, and duplicate the base layer (again, because you shouldn't work on the base layer)
2- Create a new layer, open your depth map, select all, copy, close and paste in the new layer created (the net.paint doesn't do this automatacly...i think)
3- Now on your depth layer go to adjustments - Brightness/Contrast and raise both but more on contrast (this is to diferenciate better the diferent tones of grey)
4- In this tutorial i'll blur the house and focus on things near (but you can focus on anything), so with the help of the diferent grey tones select the dark grey from tree with the magic wand, and put the selection mode in "add (union)", and keep selection until most of the tree and the parts near to the camera are selected (this should include the dwarf too)
5- Go to Edit - Invert Selection
6- Hide the depth layer and select the image layer (you'll see that you'll keep the same selected parts in the image, so we're basic using the depth map as a alpha channel)
7- go to Effects - Blur - Unfocus and put a low value (between 1 and 5 should be enough)
8- And that's it, but for pushing the colours and a bit more contrast, merge all layers down and then duplicate this layer for the final blur image
9- with the top layer selected go to layer properties (f4) and put the blending mode to overlay) and play with the opacity (not much and don't worry about beeing to dark)
10- go to adjustments - levels , and push up a bit the output levels vertical slide.
11- save the final result and that's it

As you can see it's pretty simple doing this and there's not one only right way to do it. You don't really need a depth map but it helps a lot to select things or to use as source for the blur. Remember that doing the dof this way has two big advantges: more control, and much faster dof (render dof will allways raise your render time greatly and this will just take 5m to do).Ialso like more the final colours of PS tutorial image (more experience with PS) but the dof in the NET.Paint it's better (because i exagerated that on PS for exagerating greatly the diferences). The colour enhancement tip works better with images with trees or green parts. Feel free to correct any mistakes and share any more tips to enhance this tutorils. Hope it helps

David

Solo:

Can you do a fast 3D nature scene with a house or something in the midle with, render that and the depth pass with VUE and post it here? So that way i'll try to do a generic tutorial that could be used with most 2D apps. I'll post it here with the final result and we all can try make it better with tips and advices. Like a comunity tutorial. What do you think? If you like the ideia try to make a image with detail close and far from the camera.

By the way, has richard said, photoshop it's not that hard to pick up, and beeing a Standart has it is to the industry means that, besides beeing a really great software, anything yout don't know how to do it it's easier to find help and tutorials everywhere. So my advice give a try to photoshop (and if you can pass that "test" and like it in the process, the next step you'll do will probably be the same has i did: buy a tablet;))

David

Hi Solo

That's a hard thing to ask (at least i couldn't find much info about that for Corel Paint Shop, sorry)

I'm more a Photoshop guy but i presume the workflow should be the same just changing the name and the position of the tools in the software. Anyway heres a basic dof tutorial in Corel Paint Shop but without the depth pass:

301 Moved Permanently

(www.brighthub.com)

Honestly i advise to see this next tutorial that i'ts more turn to photoshop and uses 2 diferent methods for DOF (and i bet they can be adapt to paint shop). Again this one it's with photos and without using the depth pass:

http://www.minervity.com/news/2-ways-to-create-realistic-depth-of-field/

This last one is more complete and the final result it's just perfect. It's done in MAX but once you have the depth pass the workflow is the same. The final results and examples show a very good use of depth field in 3D:

Onno van Braam - Computer Graphics

Onno van Braam, www.onnovanbraam.com - Computer Graphics: Portfolio, Tutorials, 90000+ Blueprints

(www.onnovanbraam.com)

As i said this last one it's really really good and complete and aimed for 3D, but i advise to see the others too as they will give you a good understanding about the whole process (and possibly a better idea of how to adapt it to Paint Shop).

Hope it helps.

David

Thanks for the post thomthom. Nice reading.
I've read more things similiar and you are right about it we, as users, shouldn't make assumptions about this. We need it, how it's done shouldn't be our concern.

And I also should have been more focus about that, the term here it's not faster but bigger. At very basic terms more memory means more things in the screen at the same time, so more memory will probably mean able to work with bigger models at normal speed (and that's what it want).

I'm no coder or developer so i'm not the right person to say "do this way that it's better", i just tryed to compare 3d apps that can do it, as a way to say it's possible, and other developers, as you said, would also gain with this. 64 bits will probably be the future, and it's hard for me to imagine in a year buying PC with the standart 8Gg ram an sketchup not using even half...

Well i've just been busy with (too much ) work but finally i have time to post here my opinion.
I really liked this update and it seems that slowly we are going in the right direction now , but i also think everyone needs to stop acting like with these released sketchup it's perfect now. It's far from this, and if sketchup 7.0 had been launched like 7.1 it would still be a weak release. The speed increase is great but we still need 64bits and multicore etc etc etc, and please for everyone saying that 64 bits it's just good for big textures that it's a (and i'm sorry about beeing really direct here) a LIE. You have to keep in mind that everything takes up memory including a line, a face, a polygon, everything, the diference is that it's easier to use more memory with textures than meshes, and that's why in software like mudbox, 3DS, Maya etc you can subdivide (or open) meshes to 12 million polygons and keep modeling in real time with 32 bits version, but the limit with the 64 bits it's just limited by your ram (there's people subdividing meshes to 32 milion!!)

But as i said i really liked this update but sketchup for me needs more polished tools and more professional features too. so here are things that for me i think it should be in the next version:

• Line tool: update to the same has layout;
• Pushpull tool: update to use with multiple faces ant to choose to work like in joint pushpull;
• Vertex tools: vertex should be used like lines or faces, or should be able to select them,pushpull them, move them etc;
• Select tool: More seletion options including loop select;
• Shadows: At least fix the shadow bug, and for a real update gives us soft shadows or ways to simulate other lights;
• Sandbox tools: more stable for bigger models, and improved for organic modeling (for example the "add detail" should subdivide when meshes are selected or triangulate when faces are selected);
• Maping tools: UVunwarp tools, Cilindrical and spherical maping options, Layer textures;
• Animation tools: save position of components, faces, lines, and points (this way allowing even some deformation in animation);
• Import/export options: Obj import for meshs and textures with correct mapping and every other exporter importer working as it should, and give better tools for developers doing better integration with other apps;
• Hardware support: Use of full capabilities of current OS, Graphics Cards, and CPUs;
• Sales strategy: separate the sales of sketchup from layout (right now looks like everyone that bough SK was paying to evolve Layout and not Sketchup and that's just wrong, besides there's people that don't want layout; do a bundle for who want both);

Sorry for the long list but as you can see some are just more polished tools. But no matter what new feature they implemet, it should always be easy to use and understand, as that has always been the base of SK.

David

Hi everyone.

Nice topic Guys. I normally think people overuse dof in most render nowdays, either by using just to show off when the image don't even need it or by exagerating the dof effect. The well used dof will allways bring a really sense of realism to the scene, even if very subtle. About doing the dof in render or after in the post process, i'm in favor of doing it in the post, for 2 simple reasons: it's normally faster to render a image without dof and his depth pass; and second because the depth pass will give you much more control over the dof and you can even play with it doing unrealistic results but more suitable for the image, or just redo the post with a more strong or weak dof without having to re-render the image. The key here is control.

And if you don't mind the critic Solo, i think that in that image the dof is to strong, making it look a miniature; the colors should have a bigger contrast/saturation, vivid (is this the term? sorry about my english); and the image looks to blurred even in the mroe crisp parts of the dof. (hope you don't mind the critic

For anyone interested in more about this (and other things) for realistc renders see this great texts compilations in this forum, there's everything you need to know about realistic render with tips and explantions for everything:
http://www.subdivisionmodeling.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13176
Check the link guys because believe me it's really worth it.

David

I really don't know about that, so sorry if i can't help you, but i had to say that your post title made laugh...

David

Well i get back fom vacantion, came to my favorite forum, and i find this news about sketchup, and what a news about sketchup in many diferent levels!! Well after reading the original post from google and every post in here this is my toughts on this matter:

There's a good side and a bad side in this. The good is that first Google is talking to us!! i still can't believe it but it seems true. And other good thing is a promissed better collada export, and many may see these not worthing much but, believe me, this will be great in the future. An open format that anyone can use, that right now just needs a good vehicle to spread fast, and sketchup it's perfect for that.

But there's a dark side to this news: Removing features it's never good, be it in a paid or free aplication and will always bring the argument of "it's free so don't complaint" and that's never a good argument if you want to keep a good user base. Other thing to take notice is that if this collada importer/exporter is coming as good as the others importers then i wouldn't brag about it...SK has not one single importer for 3d models that work as it should specially in large or complex models. They always lose uv coordinates specially with unwarped meshs, or parts of the model go missing or completly loses materials, so before i see it working i won't stand by it.

Conclusion: I'm very surprised in a good way by these move, is good to see they're trying to change and comunicate with us even if it's bad news (and keep in mind that i'm one of the biggest critis of SK7...). I also agree that the gap between the Free and Pro version should be clear and these change will help on that, and these proves what i have already said about the free beeing the biggest rival of the Pro (and i use SK free right now) but it will be a "cold day in hell" if they're hoping to see 500$ from me for importers (there's companys selling plugins with importers for sketchup at 25-50$). So i would like to see "real" features first, and in sketchup, NOT layout, NOT style builder, JUST sketchup. Because the worst thing they can do right now that they have a lot of users felling "betrayed" (i'm one...) is starting a hype about a new version that in the end will not deliver...again, and i seryously doubt that these time would survive without damage for them

The Odd thing about this: Just for curiosity how will people develope their models to google earth without some basic plans? i'm suspecting they start with some basic plan from a dwg import.(i really don't know because i always wonder why would people work for free for helping a multi milion dollar company making more money enhancing there products...).Strange that these decision may bite them back in the end if they're not carefull.

In the end i can say i really like and understand their decision, and BTW i'm an architect (but that also does some design, and 3d visualition).
Sorry the long text (if someone reads it )

David

HAHAHHAH!!

That's great olishea!! You gave me the first laught of the day.

Congrats on a great evolution, a nice image composition and a very cool ideia .

David

Thanks for the tip with the radial blend! That must be great ofr posing more organic models.
For robots and other types of machines i normally also so what you said, group everything, but i also atatch some help faces in the places that are supost to have be the joints of the robot (see the picture above). That help faces have to allow me to rotate correctly in any direction thats why i use a 3 faces joined at the center.

Oh and in photoshop remember that you don't have to make everything match the background photo, it's better if you find a mid point between the render and the background picture, so don0t be afraid to change and edit a lot the background