@tfdesign said:

I still can't figure out why all those who want SU to be like 3DSMax just use Blender! I mean Blender is also free!!

I love SketchUp how it is. Being able to use plugins is great, but it's also great that they are not cluttering up SU's interface. You'll be really hard pushed to find any other modeller as powerful as SU, that even a 6 year-old can use. (My 6 year-old!)

Tfdesign please re-read my post (or see the parts in bold below).
P.S.: and i love Sk or i wouldn't give myself this work wrinting what, why and how to make it better.

@unknownuser said:

Just for the record, i don't want a Sk like Max! Max it's a behemonth and there's stuff there that either i don't have use for or simply don't know what it does. But that doesn't mean i think Sk it's perfect right now. The core use, for me at least, for Sk is modeling, mapping and animation/image (more for previz), and each of this departments need tweaks/fixes/basic tools to be in a stage that I can call mature, because i really don't need much more for most work, but each time i have to use other software to do basic stuff like mapping, or tweaking more organic shapes, or modeling something that will be faster or less probable to give me problems, or animating an object from point A to point B, etc, it won't get back to Sk simply because, now, i can do everything in the other software.

Allan, for a minute you've put a smile in my face when you said you were mapping characters in SK, but then i've read the rest os your post on how you're doing it. You teaser .

I don't have acess to UU3D so my mapping it's done in Max, and for me that's the problem. Sk limitations made me reuse Max more and more, so as soon as a mesh goes into Max it stays there, specially with the problem with importers you seem to know too. And staying out of SK just for mapping simple stuff for me it makes no sense. Plain and simple, for anyone that used SK intensivly before, Max sucks for modeling, from start to finish, with real measures and the snaps and navigation aren't as good and fluid as in Sk. But once you get better with, you stop fighting it and it stops bothering you (if i could model organic stuff with SK before there were plugins, i certainly can model with real measures in Max).

Just for the record, i don't want a Sk like Max! Max it's a behemonth and there's stuff there that either i don't have use for or simply don't know what it does. But that doesn't mean i think Sk it's perfect right now. The core use, for me at least, for Sk is modeling, mapping and animation/image (more for previz), and each of this departments need tweaks/fixes/basic tools to be in a stage that I can call mature, because i really don't need much more for most work, but each time i have to use other software to do basic stuff like mapping, or tweaking more organic shapes, or modeling something that will be faster or less probable to give me problems, or animating an object from point A to point B, etc, it won't get back to Sk simply because, now, i can do everything in the other software.
With the development team now beeing more focused in Google Earth and Layout, that was what started to push me to other softwares, so as i said in the begining i'm not sure how much i'm still the typical user for Sk, or a user that Sk wants.

Best Regards

David

Hi John.

Love your list of features.

my two cents on this.

improved texturing tools: maybe we need to start small and slow so that new users don't get scared, but we have to start somewhere because we're talking about mostly pro users and somewhere along the line they will have to map something like a sphere or a bend cylinder. So start with the basics: box, cylinder and spherical mapping - that's pretty easy to learn and understand for anyone. Unwarping UVs is another beast but at is basics it's still selecting lines as seams and unfold the mesh into a plane based on the seams you've selected (i know there's much more to it but lets start simple). I think this concept is pretty easy to follow to anyone and a good base to start more advance texture tools in sketchup. (you're the guys that did "face me" components when everyone was using RPC characters, so i know you'll find a way to give your version of this "beast";) ).

improved Ruby Plugin management: This is not really related, but seeing this made me think, that in Google summer code a lot of new stff is developed for Blender, can't that be done for Sketchup too? And related to plugin managment, start at a small scale again, do a selection of free scripts every year that could be part of SK, ask permission to his creator and give credit to him in SK, and review, enhance, and update the code and use it in SK itself (for example, Freedo's surface tools you could use part of it like when drawing a circle if you press shift it will draw the circle directly in the organic surface, the same for JPP, this way it doesn't add more bottons to the UI and keeps things simple). joining more and better your developers with "our" developers, for the same goal.

improved performance: This will allways be a cat and mouse game for you. But If you think you've reach a limit in polys maybe you could try to give more stuff in ways to present models, Like better shadows, or shiny materials or lights (nothing fancy), and try to give a better performance there. And because we are talking about the pro version something that could use more professional hardware or better graphics cards.

improved import/export: I'm 100% for COLLADA, (a universal format it would be a dream). but you will allways have trouble with this because the problem it's not the future but the present, the people that need other options now and not when it's standart (this doens0t bother me right now because i'm using max and it has support for skp, but i've been there and can understand others). So your best bet here is make to pressure, help in better ways to turn Collada bet known and respect, show to everyone the beneficts of using, anything that can turn this process faster for everyone.

i have some more simple ideas for litle tweaks in SK but would like to hear your opinion in each of these topics.

And for when a basecamp in other countries?

Regards

David

I agree with you Brodie. i think the question it's not only fix stuff VS add new stuff, but also whats the target and goal for SK.

I know that most probably john/google aren't allowed to discuss this, and it's totally understandable, but would be nice to now where's SK going.
Should we expect for the next releases stuff like much more refined Google earth integration, like five new things Google Earth related, lots of new stuff added or fixed for layout, and just one tool added to modeling and nothing more fixed or added in SK itself? (i don't mean any of these in a disrespectfull way, because i know that was a lot of work).

I have no problem with google earth stuff beeing priority, It's your software and your development plan, you guys know better than anyone your goals and to get there, but some people may use SK to make 3D models not google earth related and most of the time complex and heavy, poly and texture wise, others use SK more for previz and need more from the animation or presentation stuff. So for some of us that information can be very valuable, to know if the prioritie here it's still the same as in the begining: doing, in a easy and understanble way, better 3D models and previz; or doing, in a easy and understanble way, better GE 3D models?

So yes, i would love to know how you see SK in the future.

Best Regards

David

Hi John

I understand where jgb is coming.
I've been moving away from SK in the last months (more work related than SK related), and there's times i really miss SK way of modeling and doing stuff
but the truth is in the end other softwares give me much more garanties and don't suffer from SK shortcomings, from uv mapping to animation, to incredible basic stuff like loop selects, bevels, curves, organic modeling or just extruding more than one face at the same time. And then there's stuff that's completly unforgivable like importing/exporting options, or the way SK unsmoths things without warning after "copy pastes" or "saves" ruining renders or exports if we are not alert.

And if you read some reviews of SK8 pro like, in the PC Pro, you see that maybe we are not crazy or alone in thinking like this or beeing more critic:
"However, SketchUp 8 Pro and LayOut 3 add little to previous releases and raise questions about Google’s commitment to SketchUp’s original user-base and those new users who want to move beyond geo-modelling." (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/software/363466/google-sketchup-8/2)

I know that i'm a minority and what sk offers may be enough to almost all Sk users and some pro users, but for more serious model work it's simply not enough anymore. And it's a pity because SK it's (or was) a trully unique software.

So try to be a little more understanble with us and keep sending updates like the last one that solve the shadow bug (congrats on that ). I allways like a good reason to get back a play a litle more with this great software.

Best Regards

David

Hi Linea

Good to hear about your new Job. Congrats and hope you're liking it.

Your web site for Portfolio it's really good and with a very clean presentation. My only comemt/critic is for you to lose a bit more time in post production in photoshop for the images of the 3Ds because right now they lack a litle "depth", speccially in colours and shadows.

About the mac, don't worry much because normally it's easier to work with it, and if you're using the same software even the shortcuts are the same (except the apple keys). My only problems with it was related to connecting other devices with it, no one botton maximize windows in the 27 inch screen, and the conection to network of the company was allways turning itself off, and i couldn't figure out why (i'm not very mac expert). Other than that it's still a computer.

Good luck in your new adventure

Regards

David

The sketchup guys are on fire
First the shadow bug, now camera tools. I'm really liking this new updates and the speed their coming.
Keep them up guys

Can i have faith in uv maping tools in next update/plugin release by you guys ?

@solo said:

LOL@69.

Eric, I hope you don't mind but I had to see what Dunny was made of.

AHAHAH

Wan't expecting that solo
Great

It's never too late

But you can try to do other type of "architecture", that doesn't need a degree, like doing booths for brands or expositions, or films/tv sets. I'm and architect and I'm currently doing that. Here (Portugal) you normally don't need an architect's signature to do that (and most stuff like these is also done by designers anyway), architects do these because supposedly have more knowledge/experience in creating "spaces".

I've left "raw" architecture, because here it's incredibly under payed, with sometimes crazy work hours and pressure, and most important, for me, there's not much room to experiment and it takes a lot of time for the real thing to be built (you can spent several months just in the technical drawings), specially compared to doing booths and sets.

In the meantime, I'm also trying to get into illustration (of every kind) doing some freelance work outside and this is where I have the most fun and surprisingly with some luck can pay very well. The irony here is that when I was little I wanted to do illustrations, but my mother told me there's no money in that and that if I like drawing I should go to architecture that it's better...oh the irony

@thomthom said:

...

I don't think you're seeing the big picture thomthom. big pictures, movie exports they can use multicore/64bis, but if that something that it's in the platorm and developers can use maybe instead of big pictures there could be a plugin that would handle big pictures for textures, with real time editiing and painting with baking them in the texture map in the 3D model at the end, and instead of movies maybe a plugin for better animation that could then export the movie with more options at the codecs, or maybe a basic sculpt tools suite without the lag in the brushs that the current plugins suffer from...And the list could go on.

And it seems everything around SK goes by workarounds...yes there maybe be a work around for exporting larger images (like exporting partial images and put them together after) but you will allways reach a point where that workaround brakes, a pixel is info and info takes memory and like it or not you'll need memory in the end. Workaround for texturing, workaround for shadows (thank god no more of that), work around for modeling, hell we even have workarounds for toolbars! Isn't it about time we got something a litle more professional?

And Btw why does render engines plugins don't count? because the blame is from developers that should all build everything a studio apart? does that count for physics engines, fur and texture editing or baking softwares? we brag that sk is great because we can add plugins as we like but then we put others apart...

Oh and i'm no programer but by following logic, if we use multicore to calculate intersections in lines (rays) from point A (light) to a point B (objects) to get a shape in the end (shadow) i think that logic can be aplied in intersecting lines in 3D models...(keep in mind i'm no programer so this could be completly wrong, but i think i remember something about luxology using multicore in intersect...)

@thomthom said:

Have you ever had SU run out of memory? (just pure SketchUp, no render engine plugin.)

Like exporting giant images, or heavy calculations operations (intersect) on giant models, or maybe for a better platform for developers to program for?

@thomthom said:

Why not just ask for better performance? That's what you want, right? Instead of asking for a particular technical implementation that can't be applied to most tasks. (most 3d apps that boost this feature refer to the render engine they bundle.)

Like multipe frame export in movie sequences, or any calculation that can be paralelized (like multiples modeling operations - multiples faces push pull, and doing better modeling tools in the process...and i've just make this up...can't imagine what a paid professional could do) or maybe (again) for a better platform for developers to program for? (since right now users seem more dependent on plugins developers like you than google)

But right now i would trade any of that for real UV/Maping tools...

Gaieus, i don't think the problem here is prices, the problem seems to be lack of information that leads to a lack of choice.
Imagine that there's no discounts policie, and you want to buy a new software that costs 3000$ but you know that in an month and update version will come out and the update fee is 1000$. Would you buy now at 3000$ and then pay extra 1000$ for a total of 4000$ or would you wait a month, and keep working with your current tools in the meantime, and pay 3000$ for an update version that does everything the other does plus more?

Companies do this discounts prior to new releases to don't hurt sales in that months and keep a costumer base happy and sales fair.
I've used more expensive values to help making a point, because i still don't think it's worth all this hassle for the values we are talking, and i serious doubt Adam wanted or didn't care if something lke this happen. I'm just saying this as an advice in sales politics to Adam, it's not meant to hurt is image.

David

Hi Adam

I think i understand what's Christophe Hebert point in this matter (not that i thnk he's doing in the right place or in a polite way).
From what I understand Lightup v1 costs 150 and v2 is 185 and the update fee is 70 (please correct me if this is wrong). Now the problem seems to me that there was a lack of knowledge about the release of v2 so if people bought a day before release and the v2 cames out after, they have to pay 150+70= 220 and that's more than the full v2 (so i think this part could be a litle better tought adam). Now because people didn't know when there was going to be a released and how the updates would work, they couldnt choose either to wait for the new release or just buying the current. If you put yourself in their shoes, and knew the v2 was coming out you would probably wait for the realease (specially because v2 i supose, it does everything v1 does plus more), but if you don't know this and have to pay an update within a ver short time frame it makes no sense paying more than a full version release. If it would happen to me i would probably be upset too.

Please don't take this as an attack to you adam, I'm just saying that the updates price politic cold be a litle more tough out (BTW i'm not a Lightup user so this doesn't affect me directly). And i don't think it's worth a reaction like this (speccialy with this prieces we are talking about).

If i fail to understand correctly what's going on here then just forget this post Adam .

David

Thomthom

In my dreams, you guys all together, form a company, and build your own software or maybe a patch for blender to turn it into a sketchup version. And sell it at sk price. Hell, sell it more expensive and I bet people would still buy it. Get this wonderful guys at sketchucation to support it and it would be a "marriage" made in heaven. Oh well its good to dream

It's a pity most of users at sketchucation are all scattered over the world, because I would love a sketchucation meeting with all users in the forum (and to thank personally to all ruby coders out here).

And BTW do you prefer beers or cookies? and how do I send them over mail?

thomthom, I could kiss you right now...

Hi Solo.

I really enjoy seeing your work, but with you talent and patient why don't you try (really really push yourself) for zbrush or mudbox for this kind of projects? I would love to see what you could come up with a specific tool for this.

I'm not very experienced in this software's but mudbox it's much easier to pick up than zbrush, but zbrush feels better and much more inovative, but in all honesty they both are really good in this field.

Solo

Hmmm, it seems to much time and work lost in cleaning to be a good approach, but I think it must depend in the model we're working on. In a model with fewer articulations it can work, but something as complex as a hand or an octopus tentacle in can be hard to justify, specially if the final mesh won't have good quality after the posing.

And yes, the ears are intersecting the model. I just wanted the ears, at that stage, to have a good connection to the head, and was going to clean everything up after all the details were done (and if you notice, the mesh topology in them, are really rough and heavy).

Thanks

Hi Solo

Nice Oddie models. I would like to ask you if you always make the arms (members) separate meshes from the body and place them in position after sculpting? wouldn't be better to sculpt them as on single meshs with nice loops around the junctions or is this better workflow for sketchup?

I've try that some time ago but the problems for me starts when we have to pose them, either in skethcup with plugins or at other software. So normally I try to model everything in the final position but also try to keep a clean mesh and loops around it, so that if i have to do any edition in other software it's easier. I just try to use sculping in sk for smaler details and thins (i found that sculpting trough ruby for me doesn't have the responsiveness in the mesh to fell right) The funny thing is that i found that modeling this in sketchup trough the regular box modeling approach can have advantages like keeping the unsmoth lines as guides (does this make sense?).

You can see below an example of what i mean (one of mine old never endind personal projects).

you should be proud

The level of detail and the scene setup it's pretty good.
My only complain goes to the textures. (great textures can really bring more life to your model)

Anyway, good work, now upload your model do C&C and lets play a bit

hahaha great post khai

But when we stop to think about it, a question pops "why would I need sk 64 bits?" Really why? it's not like SK has the tools to push it much further without help from others, and if it works with others it's because the OTHERS try to work with it, not the other way. And it's not flawless (vrayfur on a imported skp file anyone?)

If you ask me 6-7 years ago what I though sk would be capable of doing I would have answer something like Lumion does now (it's the perfect philosophy of WYSIWYG that sk had), and more clever and unique modelling/texturing/animation tools (64 bits and multicore wouldn't cross my mind back then). And now remind me what's the big differences in this departments with sk without 3rd party stuff, in 6 years? A little shocking when you think about it, isn't it...

So be it 32 or 64, I think sk has reach the "mature" point (unfortunately), it's has good as it ever is going to be (just some "optimizations" here and there with newer versions). Just accept it and use it as long as it works for you (it will give us all much less headaches and "beating-dead-horses"-debates).I have.

So, honestly I think the questions in sk development goes much deeper than plain and simple 64 bits...