I was hoping that, if I put it in the bugs section, that the higher-ups might be more inclined to read it. We all know that posting in the wish list is like standing in the desert talking to yourself, haha

Thanks for everyone adding their experiences and thoughts! Let's build this to critical mass and maybe we will start to see some of these make it into the software.

JQL, your point about wanting LO to have functionality like SU is very well made. I have felt that way since the beginning of LO, years ago. I never quite understood why there was some wheel re-invention going on in LO, especially when things work so well with SU.

For me, improvements boil down to wanting less clicking, less dragging, and more keyboard shortcut control.

I hope the SU guys see this thread

Can I take a sec and mention how awesome it is that guys like Marc and Andrew, and Chris, and Thomas are so active on these forums? That people like me, who use your software every day to make a living, have an avenue to communicate with the developers is really wonderful.

I wrote this post in the leader text thread, but now I am thinking that I should make it it's own thread, for searches to find it, if for no other reason.

Overall, I think the core functionality of Layout is very good. The linking to SU works great and the documents come out looking fantastic. I ma one of the ones who has been very very pleased to see that LO has been continually updated and improved. It is far superior to the original. The only core functionality that I understand is less than perfect is the dxf export function, but luckily I don't need that. But all in all, I enjoy my time spent in the LO workspace. That being said, some workflow tweaks would really really improve my experience, primarily by reducing the number of mouse clicks it takes to create a complex document.

1. If you are editing text, or a line segment, or whatever, and you flip to another software (SU to take an area measurement, for example), and then you come back to LO, the edit are no longer active. So, then you have to place the cursor back on the entity, double-click the entity, click to place the curser, and then you can start editing. If you are changing something in a group, then the number of clicks can get to 6 or more, in an addition to moving the curser around). Go through that process a couple hundred times a day and you start to notice it being annoying. Seems like every other software out there maintains curser location and edit state, so why can't LO?

2. Custom placing of dimensions is cumbersome and takes endless mouse clicking. To have to double-click a dimension, then a well timed single-click on the dimension text, and then drag it to one or the other ends of the dimension line every time I need to adjust spacing, etc is a big time suck. Especially small dimensions because then I have to zoom in because often times the text box won't become active unless you get close. I probably customize 60% of the dimensions I place, and I miss SU's ability to right click and choose start, middle, end. Or, even better, a keyboard shortcut to move the text around would be awesome.

3. Can't set a keyboard shortcut for placing the dimension text inside, middle, or outside of the line. So, every time you want to change, it is a coin toss whether it is quicker to just edit it and manually place it, or is it quicker to move my cursor across the screen to click a button and then bring it back again?

4. Add a radio button for setting the active layer instead of making the active layer the one you happen to have highlighted. I have meticulous and well-practiced layer control in all of my softwares, but, in LO, I just never seem to have the item on the layer that I wanted it on. I know why, but it doesn't change the fact that the present condition makes it too easy to get it wrong. And getting everything back on the right layers can be very time consuming. The way SU does it, with the layer 0 and a hard set button would work great. (don't get me started on SU's other layer issues, haha)

5. I like that the esc key closes down an edit, that works very well for me. I actually wish the text in SU worked the same way as I am always hitting esc and losing my text in SU, but that's not that big of a deal. I like how it works in LO. What I don't like is that if you edit text with the font window, when you hit esc it makes the font window disappear and the text remains editable and you have to hit esc again to close it and then the keyboard shortcut to get the font window back. I get to play that game tens of times a day.

6. I wish I could right-click to lock an entity, just like in SU. I know you can lock layers, but that is not precise enough for what I do without a serious number of layers, and even then I would invariably have everything on the wrong one anyway... It would be very handing to right-click lock things, or groups of selected things

7. I wish you could dimension in perspective, like you can in SU. Really, SU's dimensioning with LO's editing would be perfect. I am always dimensioning things in perspective, and so I have to do that in SU, with the whole host of layer, scene, and style settings so I can then display it in the LO document. Also, with the dimensioning in SU, I can't control the model stroke in LO too much because the dimensions change, too. It would be nice to set the SU model the way I want and then dimension with LO. That would save a ton of time, and make the SU file less messy.

8. It would be great if the bounding box for SU viewports was the actual model and not just a square. Inadvertent clicking (or, even worse, the dreaded double-click, making it active in SU, which then takes esc and undo to fix) and moving of the model (unless there was a right-click lock option!) would become much less frequent.

9. When you place a leader text, the arrow and the text come together, but not grouped. So, if you want to make copies of a leader text you have already placed (maybe because it has the text filled and you can't set the tool default to do that) it takes two clicks (or a drag, which can be difficult in densely packed drawings) to grab the arrow and the text. It wouldn't be good if they were just grouped, as then you couldn't move the test around without a double click, but what if a shift-click, for example, would select both the arrow and the text as a unit? Also, cut and pasting a leader text breaks the bond between the arrow and the text? Shouldn't that always stay slaved?

10. A dynamic cloud tool would be really really handy. Like really really. Mark-ups are kind of difficult without one. I know there is one in the scrapbook, but it isn't dynamic so it always looks very poor after scaling and placing. I envision a line tool option that is just a wavy, cloud-like line. Acts like a line, can stroke and fill like a line, looks like a cloud. I would definitely use it often.

11. I would like a preference setting so that all imported SU models always come in with the background off, as that is the choice I use 99.5% of the time.

12. We still can't draw lines in model space, with dimensions that read model space dimensions. I know we can set dimensions manually; but it is way too easy to forget to change it back to auto once you start dimensioning the model and then start placing wrong dimensions. That probability is so scary for me that I never use manual dimensions, ever. And so then, if I am tracing over a model, I have make sure I have the trace lines on a separate layer that I can turn off for dimensioning. Better than sending drawings out with the wrong dims on them, though.

Whew, quite the list when I put it to paper. Can you tell that I have spent lots of time with SU and LO? I eagerly await reactions and thoughts!

Hi Dave. So, you are able to save the leader text fill attribute and have it remain for new leader text as the tool default?

I would love to know how because nothing works here.

Everytime, no matter what I do, once I enter my text and hit escape, it reverts to no fill. Are you saying that this works for you?

Just the continuous crashing in SU mac is enough for me to be very frustrated with this release. And Layout, for all it's "improvements" is still very clunky and click intensive, imo I use it every day for hours, so inefficiencies in work flow are very noticeable and annoying and, any way you cut it, dimension placement in layout sucks

and we still can't draw lines in model space? That is ridiculous and a time waster. Nothing like having to set dimensions manually; pretty easy to forget to change it back to auto once you start dimensioning the model...And no way to dimension perspectives in layout? So you have to dimension in SU for that part? That is a serious liability and another time waster.

So, we have a software that is now crashing more than it used to; have had minimal functionality and workflow improvements; and minimal involvement with the developers to develop the things that power users have been asking for? Maybe not a step backward but sure isn't going forward.

I wrote up a ton of Layout suggestions and troubleshooting threads way back and posted them here. There was involvement from the developers and lots of lip service that these were being addressed back at HQ. And that resulted in what? Nothing, that's what. I really don't even know what I waste my time posting issues as they are obviously not being addressed at any level.

I use SU and LO every single day for hours and hours and, as a definite Pro user, I feel marginalized and disappointed in the lack of substantive improvements. And it adds insult to injury that some functionality has been eliminated, at least right now. But we have a shiny new Warehouse; whoopdy-do...

Hi Marc,

Can I take a sec and mention how awesome it is that guys like you and Andrew, and Chris, and Thomas are so active on these forums? That people like me, who use your software every day to make a living, have an avenue to communicate with the developers is really wonderful.

As for the leader text, I feel like the functionality in 13 was different, but maybe not? I know that it wasn't until I started using 14 that I noticed that I couldn't do something with the leader text that I really wish I could.

Overall, I think the core functionality of Layout is very good. The linking to SU works great and the documents come out looking fantastic. I ma one of the ones who has been very very pleased to see that LO has been continually updated and improved. It is far superior to the original. The only core functionality that I understand is less than perfect is the dxf export function, but luckily I don't need that. But all in all, I enjoy my time spent in the LO workspace. That being said, some workflow tweaks would really really improve my experience, primarily by reducing the number of mouse clicks it takes to create a complex document.

1. If you are editing text, or a line segment, or whatever, and you flip to another software (SU to take an area measurement, for example), and then you come back to LO, the edit are no longer active. So, then you have to place the cursor back on the entity, double-click the entity, click to place the curser, and then you can start editing. If you are changing something in a group, then the number of clicks can get to 6 or more, in an addition to moving the curser around). Go through that process a couple hundred times a day and you start to notice it being annoying. Seems like every other software out there maintains curser location and edit state, so why can't LO?

2. Custom placing of dimensions is cumbersome and takes endless mouse clicking. To have to double-click a dimension, then a well timed single-click on the dimension text, and then drag it to one or the other ends of the dimension line every time I need to adjust spacing, etc is a big time suck. Especially small dimensions because then I have to zoom in because often times the text box won't become active unless you get close. I probably customize 60% of the dimensions I place, and I miss SU's ability to right click and choose start, middle, end. Or, even better, a keyboard shortcut to move the text around would be awesome.

3. Can't set a keyboard shortcut for placing the dimension text inside, middle, or outside of the line. So, every time you want to change, it is a coin toss whether it is quicker to just edit it and manually place it, or is it quicker to move my cursor across the screen to click a button and then bring it back again?

4. Add a radio button for setting the active layer instead of making the active layer the one you happen to have highlighted. I have meticulous and well-practiced layer control in all of my softwares, but, in LO, I just never seem to have the item on the layer that I wanted it on. I know why, but it doesn't change the fact that the present condition makes it too easy to get it wrong. And getting everything back on the right layers can be very time consuming. The way SU does it, with the layer 0 and a hard set button would work great. (don't get me started on SU's other layer issues, haha)

5. I like that the esc key closes down an edit, that works very well for me. I actually wish the text in SU worked the same way as I am always hitting esc and losing my text in SU, but that's not that big of a deal. I like how it works in LO. What I don't like is that if you edit text with the font window, when you hit esc it makes the font window disappear and the text remains editable and you have to hit esc again to close it and then the keyboard shortcut to get the font window back. I get to play that game tens of times a day.

6. I wish I could right-click to lock an entity, just like in SU. I know you can lock layers, but that is not precise enough for what I do without a serious number of layers, and even then I would invariably have everything on the wrong one anyway... It would be very handing to right-click lock things, or groups of selected things

7. I wish you could dimension in perspective, like you can in SU. Really, SU's dimensioning with LO's editing would be perfect. I am always dimensioning things in perspective, and so I have to do that in SU, with the whole host of layer, scene, and style settings so I can then display it in the LO document. Also, with the dimensioning in SU, I can't control the model stroke in LO too much because the dimensions change, too. It would be nice to set the SU model the way I want and then dimension with LO. That would save a ton of time, and make the SU file less messy.

8. It would be great if the bounding box for SU viewports was the actual model and not just a square. Inadvertent clicking (or, even worse, the dreaded double-click, making it active in SU, which then takes esc and undo to fix) and moving of the model (unless there was a right-click lock option!) would become much less frequent.

9. When you place a leader text, the arrow and the text come together, but not grouped. So, if you want to make copies of a leader text you have already placed (maybe because it has the text filled and you can't set the tool default to do that) it takes two clicks (or a drag, which can be difficult in densely packed drawings) to grab the arrow and the text. It wouldn't be good if they were just grouped, as then you couldn't move the test around without a double click, but what if a shift-click, for example, would select both the arrow and the text as a unit? Also, cut and pasting a leader text breaks the bond between the arrow and the text? Shouldn't that always stay slaved?

10. A dynamic cloud tool would be really really handy. Like really really. Mark-ups are kind of difficult without one. I know there is one in the scrapbook, but it isn't dynamic so it always looks very poor after scaling and placing. I envision a line tool option that is just a wavy, cloud-like line. Acts like a line, can stroke and fill like a line, looks like a cloud. I would definitely use it often.

11. I would like a preference setting so that all imported SU models always come in with the background off, as that is the choice I use 99.5% of the time.

12. We still can't draw lines in model space, with dimensions that read model space dimensions. I know we can set dimensions manually; but it is way too easy to forget to change it back to auto once you start dimensioning the model and then start placing wrong dimensions. That probability is so scary for me that I never use manual dimensions, ever. And so then, if I am tracing over a model, I have make sure I have the trace lines on a separate layer that I can turn off for dimensioning. Better than sending drawings out with the wrong dims on them, though.

Whew, quite the list when I put it to paper. Thanks for listening. Can you tell that I have spent lots of time with SU and LO? This VBE warrior would be much pleased if some of these changes where incorporated into future versions!

Just as an update; TIG now ha a beta v4.5 that is working fine on my computer; it just has the observer/auto update feature disabled, so that was definitely where the issue lies.

Thanks TIG, you are the man!

I really appreciate everyone's help; you guys are awesome.

Thanks Andrew!

I always wondered if those bugs plat reports actually went somewhere, haha.

I just sent a new one with a v4.5 beta that crashed immediately.

TIG,

See attached screenshot. SCF is only plugin installed and SU crashed when trying to open the first file.

This occurs when ?
On startup ? ~20% of the time

On opening a new file ? haven't tried that, though doesn't SU open a new file on startup?

On opening an existing file ? ~50%

On opening a v13 file? ~80% of the time, if it hasn't crashed already

On quit ? Never make it that far

Anything special about the splatting SKPs ? Some big, some huge, some with high res textures, some no textures

Size - This file, that crashed for just now, has 47,000 faces, 512 groups, 4300 component instances (mostly bolts and washers), 252 component definitions, and 62 layers. It has 3 sections. It started as a v13 and then became a v14.

Number of Sections - 3

Number of AutoUpdating [Glued] sections ? none

I would consider this a "light" model in my workflow.

I completely emptied the plugin folder and literally added one plugin at a time (downloaded through sketchucation or the extensions warehouse,e most recent versions) and ran through the protocol of opening all four files in the order that I used in the screenshots.

In the middle of this process, I first installed SCF. crash crash crash.

Took out SCF and counted to install and test the rest of the updated plugins. Put SCF back in and crash.

I then installed, one at a time and testing, the few un-updated plugins I use regularly. SU still continued to run perfectly through these installs.

Put SCF back in and crash crash.

Also, I tried a few using open instead of open recent and still crashed with SCF

Not sure what else to say?

I can easily provoke a crash. All I have to do is put the SCF items in the plugins folder and start opening files.

half the time, it will crash without even opening one, almost always with the second, and will 100% crash with a v13 added to the mix.

Pull the plugin items out and everything works perfect.

I have run that cycle probably 10 times now with the same results

Hi Thomas,

I just sent over two bugs splats,

look for otb designworks or cgailey1 at bresnan dot net

I referenced SCF in the description.

I uploaded a bunch of screenshots of testing with and without the SCF plugin installed. You can find them here

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u6hrf9qiwcwjbbx/cCLTGJ7GbI

No, I didn't enter anything, sorry.

I will get it to crash and send a couple with description.

I am happy to share the plugin folder; I'll PM you asap

thanks

Hi TIG,

Do you have some large SU files? Saved as v13?

What happens when you try to open 2 of those one after another?

I'll whip up a short screencast...

Any chance you have the nSectionCutFace v4.4 plugin installed?

I am experiencing troubles with that one, mavericks, and SU14, with crashing and stalling as you describe.

Awesome! Any way to change the layer behavior after it has been created?

For instance, if I make a layer and choose for it to be hidden for new scenes, but then I change my mind and want it visible for new scenes, is that possible to change?

thanks!

I have sent a bugsplat report every time so there are probably 30 or 40 of them from me in the last week.

I am happy to run code or test if anyone needs it.

The crashes seem to happen after the new file window opens but before the layers and scenes palettes populate, fwiw

I can make a short screencast if that helps?

Thanks guys!!!

OK, here is with I came up with.

I have 4 files, 3 are version 2014 and 1 is version 13. Of the 3, one is a 100meg monster with lots of foliage, high res textures, etc.

I emptied the plugin folder, fired up SU, started with one of the 2014, then the other 2014, then the v13, and, if all is good, I hit it with the 100meg monster.

I added one plugin at a time back and continued testing.

As surprising as it may seem, without any doubt, the culprit is SectionCutFace v4.4. I know, no way a TIG plugin is throwing SU for a loop, but it definitely is.

I can have every plugin back in the folder and SU will happily open, open, and open more.

When I put the three sectioncutface items back into the folder, SU will maybe get the first 2 open 50% of the time. The v13 will kill it almost every time, even with only one other file open. Never got 3 files open without a crash.

I removed the SCF plugin and tried again and everything ran with no issues.

So, thinning I somehow got a corrupted install of SCF, I went back through the Sketchucation plugin store and installed a fresh version.

Crash crash crash.

remove the plugin files (~superseded, sectioncutface folder, and sectioncutface.rb) and everything seems to be fine in the few minutes I tried to crash SU without success.

plugin back in and crash again.

I'll send a TIG a PM pointing to this thread, but something is definitely not working correctly, either on the plugin side, or mac, or mavericks, or who knows.

Thanks John,

I emptied my folder and started adding them back one after another.

I have a highly surprising suspicious one that is definitely causing trouble. I will report back when I know for sure.

Thanks everyone!

Hi chris,

I will give that a shot. I just had a client over and SU was crashing at an unbelievable level.

I ended up having to close the file. Quit SU. Open SU. Open new file.

If I just closed a file and opened a new one, it would crash 80% of the time.

I will purge plugin and see how that works; thanks

Thanks Rich; thought I was going crazy there for a minute.