I totally agree with Huckrorick.

@dave r said:

Put in another drive, too and back up your data files. I use Cobian back up and automatically create backup files every night. I keep the last two of those.

Good idea
Good thing I thought of it (kidding of course )

Interesting discussion folks. I'm learning a lot.

Still waiting for the recovery report on my hd. Haven't yet determined if I really have a mb problem as I need to continue on a project definition on paper that can't wait.

My bro-in-law has a 128gb ssd for me when he gets his new 256gb ssd setup. I'll use that for my systems drive and an hd strictly for data files.

I just suffered a catestrophic hard drive crash, maybe even a mother board drive controller fail as well. Of course I have no backup.
Anyway my hd data may be recoverable ($450 to do it) so I should be able to get my models back, but the OS files may have been scrambled. That may make it impossible to get SU8 up and running as before.
And if the mb is shot I face needing a new pc.
My pc is 9 years old, high end then, but still powerful enough for today. Just replacing the mb may be impossible as it cannot be had anymore. And it was running Win XP Pro.

So I face the potential tripple whammy of new pc, new OS and new SU.

I have choices, for OS, I can stay with XP, or go Win 7 or 8.1.
For SU I can try to find an SU8 install or bite the bullet with 2013.

XP & SU8 is well known to me, and worked very well, but what about the other combinations?
How well does SU8 / 2013 work with Win 7 / 8.1?

Frankly, I would prefer status quo XP & SU8, if at all possible.

Right now I am constrained to use my Blackberry Playbook and Q10 phone, and I am suffering from SU withdrawl symptoms. A pencil and quad-pad just won't cut it.

While what you ask is a good idea, if you try to delete a layer that has anything in it SU will ask what
you want to do with the contents. If the layer is empty it will simply delete.

@cotty said:

@jgb said:

But it does have some limitations and quirks.

After your explanations I'm not sure if it is really the plugin

I can show you many examples of its limitations and quirks. I'm sure you could too, if you use it a lot.

The problem I wrote of is not really an example, in that the perimeter geometry is a user problem, not a CL problem. But how CL handles some perimeter problems does exemplify its "limitations and quirks".

In that case, why would CL not skin a selected perimeter in-situ with other geometry, yet skin that EXACT same perimeter selection when copied away from any other geometry? Doesn't happen all the time, but not often enough to sense an underlying pattern.

I use Curviloft a lot, I LOVE it. Can't be without it.

But it does have some limitations and quirks.

One of the quirks I have learned to work around is CL's occasional failure to form some curves even when the perimeter seems fully intact and pristine. I can only attribute its fail to loft due to the connecting geometry in my model. Most likely due to very tiny undetectable fragments and/or gaps. Most times it works, but sometimes I need to do this.....

I select all the lines in my perimeter that failed to loft, and move/copy them some distance away in an axis direction, in free space. Fixing it in free space is far easier than in-situ.

CL will then loft in most cases. I simply move the group back in place.

However, sometimes it will still fail, so I look for changes in colors at endpoints. That usually signals a problem at the vertex and/or with the adjoining lines. I do a left/right select on only one side of the vertex and capture everything that touches the vertex, and delete. It also captures one line as well, leaving a gap. I do an endpoint to endpoint line draw and try CL again. Repeat until success.

However when you move the lofted group back into place, and explode it, you will need to redraw many connecting lines in the adjoining geometry, as those lines will have endpointed on the deleted entities. Your primary clue is failed faces touching the lofted curve.

Please note that the biggest cause of tiny line fragments and tiny gaps is Intersect. So if you are lofting any part of a previously intersected geometry, expect problems.

Another big cause of tiny endpoint gaps is drawing a line from point A to B where B is ever so slightly off axis to A and the dreaded "Constrained by" message was not heeded. You need to make sure you draw endpoint to endpoint.
If you do get the "Constrained by" message going from A to B, then Escape, and draw B to A. It will work then.

@tomot said:

I would have thought it updates I.E. as well, even though I might not use I.E. as a browser.

Is my assumption right?

Probably not.

IE was mandated as a standalone product long ago and receives its own updates somewhat independent from Win OS. Therefore, in theory, you don't need IE on your PC. Yeah, right!

That being said, IE functionality is INTEGRAL with the WIN OS in the way the OS handles IP processes, but not the actual browser application that we commonly refer to as IE.

So if an app, whether it be SU or a Ruby script or even Firefox, needs to get to the web or exploit some IP type functions, it must utilize IE type calls to the OS. And if the developer does not stick to exact protocol, by trying a shortcut or doing something really clever, problems will ensue.

Which is another way of saying what TT said.

Since IE and WIN OS share many DLL's that contain these calls, an update to an IE DLL will update an OS DLL, but not necessarily vice versa. The app developer WILL have the latest IE on his system, and may use an "updated" OS call, but if you have an older IE, that call may fail.

@bob james said:

@monmonred said:

can you also make an evident distinction between a folder and a layer? perhaps bold the letters of the folder name or highlight the folder with a different color or something. it gets confusing when i have all folders un-collapsed.

thanks so much!

+1

Me2

@unknownuser said:

Draw a line
copy 4 times some distance
move 3 lines vertically up some to distance
select each line in sequence left to right
run curviloft

The tool activates then hangs sketchup. If I loft arcs or other shapes it seems to work fine.

Thanks,

Mike

I do not understand what you think CL will do with a set of unconnected lines. CL needs a closed perimeter of some sort to create the intervening mesh. With 5 parallel unconnected lines, CL can do nothing. I tried it and got the usual CL "I'm stumped" color codes. It did NOT hang my system.

@jiminy-billy-bob said:

Every time you change the visibility of a layer, the layers state is updated for the current scene.
So it's like clicking on "update" every time you hide or show a layer, but you still can have different layers visibilities for different scenes.

But yeah, I'm working on this

Now that explains why my scenes keep screwing up every time I make a layer change while editing. That "current" scene takes on the editing only visible layers, in addition to the layers it is supposed to show. In effect I get the editing layers superimposed on the scenes defined layers.

In the particular model this was happening, I did not and was not using JBB's layers at all, although it is loaded in SU.

To get around this I had to create a "working scene" just to edit and change layers to do so. Then I had to remember to ensure the scene that was edited had all the required layers open and updated (through Scene Mgr) before turning on the actual scene tab. A real pain.

@jiminy-billy-bob said:

IE 8.6 ? Are you sure ? The latest release is "8.0.7601.17514".
Can you screenshot http://whatsmyua.com/ when opened with IE ? Thanks

Oops (again)

My IE is V 8.0.6001.18702

Do you still need the screenshot?

I have dual hi-res widescreen monitors, so I need to edit the screenshot down in size and a bit in res to send it up the pipe.

@jiminy-billy-bob said:

Ok, I can reproduce the scrolling problem with IE6 and 7. If you do use one of these, please mind updating to IE8 (Or better : Windows 7 and IE10 !)

I am relieved you saw this too.

I know SU uses the IE interface. My IE is Ver 8.6.

I do very much dislike IE for several reasons, so I don't use it unless I have no choice. My Firefox is the latest (Ver 23.0.1) and I have IE Tab installed that sets up an IE session in an FF tab. Works well about 95% of the time. There are still some IE centric developers and many pages out there that use sneaky API calls that FF or other browsers cannot handle, especially around password handling and that dreadful CAPTCHA crap foisted on us.

I will not upgrade Windows to 7 or 8 or whatever, even under threat of no support soon. There never really was from MS, so no loss there. Too many issues with 7 on a few other apps on my system, aside from its own deficiencies.

My oops.

Win XP Pro
SU 8 Free
Firefox

As far s a video for the wild panning, A) I don't know how to do it, and B) not sure I could capture the problem as it is not always repeatable when I try on purpose.

@jiminy-billy-bob said:

Layer0

Do you want to be able to sort and nest the Layer0 like any other layer ? Currently, I made it to stay at the stop, but I can make an option for that if people want to, so you would be able to choose Layer0 behaviour.

NO Layer0 should remain status-quo.

"Best Practices" say that layer0 is ALWAYS the current layer, and ALL raw geometry is assigned to it.
Then you comp or group geometry to keep stuff separate, and assign layers to comps/groups only, to control visibility.

I learned that the hard way in the beginning of my SU experience.

@jiminy-billy-bob said:

Hi !

But what if you have 1 child layer assigned to 2 child groups nested in 2 different parent groups ? Like this :

• ParentGroup1 (ParentLayer1)

• ChildGroup1-1 (ChildLayer1-1)* ChildGroup1-2 (ChildLayer1-2)* ChildGroup1-3 (ChildLayer1-3)

• ParentGroup2 (ParentLayer2)

• ChildGroup2-1 (ChildLayer2-1)* ChildGroup2-2 (ChildLayer1-2)* ChildGroup2-3 (ChildLayer2-3)

Then if you hide ParentLayer1, all of its children are hidden too : ChildLayer1-1, ChildLayer1-2, ChildLayer1-3. Then you get this (Italic is hidden

• *ParentGroup1 (ParentLayer1)

• ChildGroup1-1 (ChildLayer1-1)* ChildGroup1-2 (ChildLayer1-2)* ChildGroup1-3 (ChildLayer1-3)*

• ParentGroup2 (ParentLayer2)

• ChildGroup2-1 (ChildLayer2-1)* ChildGroup2-2 (ChildLayer1-2)* ChildGroup2-3 (ChildLayer2-3)

Well, that's a problem, ain't it ?

The only way (that I know of) to assign a comp/group to 2 different layers, regardless of nesting, is to assign the comp/group to one layer and its internal raw geometry to another layer.

This is a "best practices" NO-NO.

ALL RAW geometry should reside on layer0. Only comps and groups should be assigned to other layers.

There are a few exceptions for specific purposes, such as descriptive labels, documentation or dimensions contained within the comp/group. In that case you can turn on/off descriptions, doc and dims by assigning all such labels to a single separate, but common layer.
Then they will be visible only if the comp/group layer is visible.

There are a few other reasons as well, but great care needs to be taken, or other stuff just disappears when hiding layers.

So, in answer to your question, it may only be a problem if you assign a layer to raw geometry.

So yes, I would like to be able to nest layers within other layers, not just layer groups.

JBB

Played some more.

I noticed 2 major things.

1) I was trying to "un-nest" a layer in a group by pulling it left. Didn't work. I had to move the lay up or down out of the group. That is not the issue. On a few occasions, and it is not always repeatable, if my cursor was dragged too far left and onto the model space, the model started panning right and could only be stopped hitting ESC. Then the model was way off in space to the left. Zoom Extents brought it back.

2) I often open a second SU session to clipboard copy reusable components from a different model. When I loaded the 2nd model, your layer panel stayed as the first model. It should have switched to the second model.

I had to close the layer panel in the first session, switch to the 2nd session, open the layer panel, which opened correctly, then switch back to the 1st session, and reopen its layer panel. After that when I switched sessions, the panels switched accordingly.

This can be an issue when I load 2 different versions of the same model and the layers are the same or very similar.

3) This one may be impossible to fix. After I rearranged all the layers under several groups in a more natural order without a lot of number prefixes, I needed to assign a layer to a new component. But the layer list in Entity Info is in the SU order (alphabetical), making it tough to find the correct layer to assign (because I got used to the new groupings in your layer list).

Your layers still beat SU's layers.

JBB; Very nice job........

The way SU does Layers have been a big bitch of mine since day 1. I use layers a lot as akin to a work breakdown structure. ALL of my layers are numbered with a name
(ie: 01.00 Main Assembly) then major parts are sub tiered (nested) with the name indented
(ie: 01.10______Sub Assy XX) and so on. (Note: Underscore here, spaces in SU)
Because SU layers cannot indent/nest, this drives me into some weird naming conventions. And some models are long on layers, usually in the 50+ range.

So when I saw you did indenting/nesting, I loaded the Ruby in a flash. I realize it is in an early developmental stage, so these are not critiques, but first use observations.

I have used this Ruby for a total of 3 minutes prior to this note, so I am NOT familiar with all its' nuances.

1) When I first loaded a model with 42 layers, SU's layers panel took about 3/4 screen height, and did not need a vertical scroll bar.
Your panel was longer due to your using a higher row height, and it had a vertical scroll bar. That is not a problem.
The problem was the vertical scroll bar does not work (greyed out), nor does mouse wheel scrolling, so I cannot see the last 7 layers in the list.

2) Since ALL my layers are numbered, in SU they sort properly, either ascending or descending when I click on the header.
They were in seemingly random order in your layer panel, neither numeric nor alphabetic. I had to move them into the numeric order I wanted.
The layer sort order should initially match the SU Layer sort order.

3) I simulate indenting/nesting by variable spacing the name of the layer after the number.
You delete multiple spaces in the name.

4) I noticed that to create a nest of layers, you have to define a new group, then move the layers to be nested under that new group, and rename the group layer.
In my case, this creates a redundant top level layer, and since I have a bunch of components inside that layer, it can't be eliminated.
You should consider the ability to elevate any existing layer to a group header status.

5) I also noticed that when you create a new group, it cannot be renamed until some other layer is nested under it. And, if some other group or layer is highlighted, the new group is placed under it, not at the end of all the layers. Disconcerting if that highlighted group is collapsed. The new group effectively disappears.

More later as I play with it more, but it is a very useful plug-in for me.

@ashscott said:

Simfonia has a small part of it that handles physics simulations called "Bullet" physics which I would say has about one tenth of the power for physical simulations that SP has. Simfonia has a lot of other things but SP is an entirely different beast - an awesome one at that.
PS - I have a paid Simfonia license and love it

Which is one of the reasons I was not enamored with SimFonia. That and the screen real estate the multiple dialog boxes took, aside from their amateurish layouts.

But as you said, it has some other worthy attributes.

Kickstarting SP has been "kicked" around for some time now, but never got anywhere.

To resurrect SP into a V4 is NOT a trivial task, and perhaps that is part of the reason Chris has dropped out of sight.

I'm all for having a V3.x or V4 up and running, but I can't see this happening with a collaborative mode. If the work is distributed amongst several Ruby magicians, and for whatever reason one drops out or falls well behind plan, the game is lost. There is no real incentive to keep going.

Besides, there is a real and fully functional plug-in available called SimFonia. I played with it when it first came out, but got side tracked with other stuff so never mastered it.... but some day that will happen.

However, should a collaborative SP revision gets going, I am quite willing to provide my skills in planning and coordination to keep the project on track.

It would also be "nice" if Chris were on the team, even if only in an advisory/consultative capacity.