Chuck: Every time I move an element, it seems that it loses it's layer orientation. If I take an element that has been sent to back and move a copy, the copy is always place on the front and I have to again change it to send to back. This is another time waster that adds up over the course of dealing with multiple pages of changes.

Barry: Correct, a copy is the newest thing created, so it goes on top. I like your request and I'll file it. My only worry is that novice users who don't understand drawing order and layers might get confused: I just copied this thing and why is it hiding behind other things.

Chuck: I am really having problems with the arrangement feature. Why are the model instances always on top? I am constantly losing Layout elements behind a model instance. I can see them but I can't select them without either dragging right to left and then deselecting the model instance, or moving the model over a known number of arrow strokes, grabbing the element and moving it, and then moving the model back. Neither of these is very quick and require too many calisthenics, in my opinion. I end up using layers for almost everything, but it still extra key strokes to accomplish something that should be easy. I need to be able to send the model instance to the back and keep it there. I can see the concern about novices, but, frankly, anyone who is using Layout already is a pro SU user and is motivated to get out of the Auto CAD world, so they are not exactly novices.

Barry: If your models are always on top and you put them all on the same layer, it's because you have your models layer on top. The layer that's on the bottom of the list in the LayOut Layers panel will be drawn furthest back, while successive layers will be drawn on top / in front of layers further back.

It sounds like you want your models at the bottom (other things in front of it). If so, move it to the bottom of the list.

Chuck: Let's say I draw 4 elements that I want to group, place, copy repeatedly, and place the copies. It seems that the inference engine goes to pieces when you select multiple pieces to move as one, or group them and try to move the whole thing. I can't get things to snap consistently, and I lose the ability to reliably and repeatedly move things the same amount. So, then I have to move one part to where I want it, and then move everything else, one at a time, so I can get the snapping behavior I expect and need.

Barry: See Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

Chuck: Yes, the precise move is an excellent and appreciated addition to Layout, no doubt about it. It would be even better if I could place construction lines to snap to and then delete easily. This keeps me from having to snapping to a SU geometry and then moving the item away to where I want it, using the inference engine to keep it in line. Works, but could be faster. And, as far as precise move goes, why doesn't Layout remember where I placed the rotation point? So now, every time I want to move a model instance, I have to replace the rotation point back to where I needed it. This adds needless zooming out and in when you are working 24x36 pages.

Barry: Feature request for Precise Move filed: store the Center of Operation location persistently with it's entity.

Chuck: I want automatic page numbering.

Barry: Request the Ruby API in LayOut and it could easily be done.

Chuck: I respectfully request enabling the Ruby API.

Barry: Feature request filed.

Chuck: The grouping function in Layout leaves a lot to be desired. Let's say I have my entire title block as a group and I want to edit the date. I double click on an element to access the group and then double click the date to edit. I hit escape and it takes me out of the entire group, which means I have to double click the group again if I want to change the page number. Big time waster, especially if you are talking a bunch of pages.

Barry: This, I believe, was a 2.1 Windows only bug. It's gone on 3.0 on my system.

Chuck: I am on a mac, so maybe there is a slight difference there. It seems that if I click outside of an editable object in a group, then it does not close the whole group. But, if I hit escape instead, then it does close the whole group down. To be honest, I have basically scrapped groups as they seem to just add key strokes and clicking to the workflow, with no appreciable benefit since I can keep things separate, and locked with the layers.

Barry: No really, if Sketchucation allows me a Quicktime upload, you'll see: it works in 3.0 on Mac & PC.
Escape.mov

OTB Idea 4

Chuck: When working in Sketchup, I regularly save a new version of the model every day, or after I make major changes. THis allows me to have a backup of every stage of the evolution of the model. So, let's say that I am using the sept.9 version to set up everything in Layout, as I think this will be the final version. Then the client has me make sweeping changes to a part of the model. At this point , I am stuck in Layout with 10's of pages referencing an out of date model. So, now I have to continually update the Sept 9 model, as well as saving newer versions for my backups, so that everything works in Layout. It would be helpful if I could, for the entire document, choose to update the reference model to a newer version.

Barry: Clarify

Chuck: Maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe I am still not understanding. Let's say I have the entire Layout document referencing a file called 10, with 30 model instances in the document. As I am working in SU, updating my model over the course of weeks, I now, because I save a version quite often, let's say the final model is now 35. My workflow now, in Layout, requires me to keep file 10 consistent with the latest SU model, which is now file 35 so that everything is up to date. What I would like to do is tell Layout to take all of my file 10 model instances, and replace them with model 35 instances. Of course, both SU models would have the exact same scenes, styles, etc. Maybe other users don't continually save out SU models with new names to keep a timeline of progress, but I do, and it is a pain to get that to work with Layout.

Barry: Yes, you can do this. File->Document Setup->References, select your "Model 10.skp" and then the Relink button, and navigate to "Model 35.skp". Should work.

Chuck: Every time I update the Sketchup model, Layout randomly changes which style I have set for each page. If I had a dollar for every time I had to go through and change all styles back to what I had originally, I would have a pretty good pile of money. Also, when it changes the style, it doesn't update the indicated active style, so I have to first choose the style that is displaying (though it is indicating that it is displaying the one I want), and then choose the one I want. THis is multiple key strokes and waiting for rendering, for each page. And it all stays the same only unitl I update the model again. Very annoying and a huge time waster.

Barry: Save your style. Then update your scene. Then save your model. Styles are associated with scenes, but you can have modified-but-not-saved styles, and modified but not saved scenes. If you want them to show up in LayOut, save them.

Chuck: Thanks for this! I had neglected to save the scene, in SU, with the proper style. You would think that that would have been an obvious thing for me to check, but sometimes things are only obvious once you know about them. Everything works just like you described.

Barry: Your questions though brought up a good point, though. There is an issue here with setting scale. If I have a model view, usually it has a scale of some default value based on the camera from SketchUp, e.g. on my test case it was 1:82.9117. I want 1/8" = 1' , or 1:96. When I change the scale, I now have "(Modified) My Scene Name". And what's strange, is that we snapshot this, so that if you change the style for that scene, you wont see your model view change unless you go back to the standard scene (and your scale to 1:82.9117! And it does this in Raster, Vector or Hybrid rendering. I think this is what's confusing a lot of people when they update their model (in addition to not saving styles, then scenes, then the model). We'll be working on how to address this / fix this to be less confusing.

Chuck: Drawing in paper space versus model space is very counter intuitive and frustrating. If I am generating a full set of 1/4"=1' drawings, it serves me no purpose that any lines I draw in Layout have a paper space length as opposed to model space. We can set the scale of the dimension tool and it would be quite helpful if we could do the same for general drawing. This makes a seemingly easy task such as generating a construction grid very time consuming and difficult. I have made grids in Sketchup and tried to use them to get the grid lines to snap to it, but it seems that the inference engine has difficulties with orthographic views and there is a constant inability to snap where I need to.

Barry: Are you trying to highlight a SketchUp model or actually draw 2D plans in LayOut? Yes, drawing in LayOut to do 2D plans could be frustrating, but you're supposed to do that in SketchUp, then set dimensions, take offs, highlighting, etc… in LayOut. We have a feature request to draw to a scale, e.g. - my view of my model on the page is 1/4" = 1', so when I draw a line, if I type 4 feet, it should draw a 1 inch line on my paper. Is that what you want?

Chuck: No, I am not drawing 2D plans in Layout and yes, I am using SU for all of my drawings. But, for the construction grid, I need dashed lines and control over line weights. I have a grid that I drew in Sketchup that I could just draw over with the new, Layout lines, and this is probably the best way to accomplish what I need. I had tried to draw a grid dashed line, with the number bubbles, as a group that I could move around and snap to the SU grid, but I was having the issues I discussed with grouping and snapping. If I could use Layout to draw a line (at the correct scale) from a SU snap point, then that would save me the time spent drawing a line, attaching a dimension string to it, and then manually scaling the line until the dimension is correct and then using that line end point to snap my grid line to. So long story long, what you described (type in 4' and get 1" line) is exactly what I would like.

Barry: I filed a feature request for this.

OTB: It would be highly helpful if I could have a Sketchup tape measure tool that would allow me to place construction lines that I could snap to.

Barry: I draw lines to snap to - can't you just draw them, put them on a layer that you can later hide?

OTB: Yeah, that works, and I do do that frequently, but the SU construction line, where I can hot key to delete all lines at once, and I have a live, snapping parallel line to a model line would be really helpful. Construction lines are such an integral part of my SU workflow that I definitely find myself missing them in SU. (sic - I think you mean LO here).

Barry: OK, I'll file a feature request.

Why can't a Layout element that has been filled with a solid color act as opaque when it is over a linked SU model? I regularly like to bring in a SU model (keeping it linked and unexploded), cover it with a plane that has some amount of transparency, and then place another model over it with a different view (like showing a loft framing plan with a mostly grayed out rest of the model behind it, or topo lines beneath a model). As of now, this is impossible without exploding the lower model, which defeats the purpose of Layout in the first place, which is to have updatable models.

Barry: This sounds interesting and should work (ala Mitchel). I'll check on this and get back to you.

Barry: I don't know why this wouldn't work - I just tried it. Make sure that both models have their background turned off in the sketchup model panel->Style tab-> uncheck "Background". Set the fill color and opacity of the model furthest forward. See attached. In futzing with this, perhaps the rectangle got in front of your front-most model? If so, simply right click on it and select Arrange->Bring to Front.

This is such a big thread that I almost dread tackling only parts of it. If it's OK, I'm going to break out some of the ideas to make it a bit more manageable. I'll preface them with

"OTB Idea #1 - Drawing in paper space isn't intuitive", etc...

Sound OK?

b

Good point. And if you want to come up with a couple of dimension styles you use, I'd put them on a scrapbook, then start to draw your dimension, hit "s", and sample the scrapbook style you want and complete drawing your dimension.

b

They (and any line) will only remain attached if they're some sort of arrow head style. I'd suggest using the last two arrows (the undershoot and overshoot) and adjusting the point size of the arrowhead to be very very small (0.00001 pts, for example).

b

Thanks for some great comments. FYI, we're still taking ideas for the next version of SketchUp & LayOut at https://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=24a7a

1. Are you trying to highlight a SketchUp model or actually draw 2D plans in LayOut? Yes, drawing in LayOut to do 2D plans could be frustrating, but you're supposed to do that in SketchUp, then set dimensions, take offs, highlighting, etc… in LayOut. We have a feature request to draw to a scale, e.g. - my view of my model on the page is 1/4" = 1', so when I draw a line, if I type 4 feet, it should draw a 1 inch line on my paper. Is that what you want?

2. I draw lines to snap to - can't you just draw them, put them on a layer that you can later hide?

3. Save your style. Then update your scene. Then save your model. Styles are associated with scenes, but you can have modified-but-not-saved styles, and modified but not saved scenes. If you want them to show up in LayOut, save them.

4. Not clear on this, but can't you go File->Document Setup->References and Update. You would have to open up old files to make sure it worked. Are you asking that you don't have to open up the back-up files? You can always relink the models (to older versions), so it shouldn't be an issue.

5. This, I believe, was a 2.1 Windows only bug. It's gone on 3.0 on my system.

6. Yup. Frequent request. Sucks. Ask for a feature request to enable the Ruby API and it could happen.

7. See Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

8. We can't move less than a pixel. Inferencing sometimes requires moving away, then moving back to move a small distance. And see Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

9. This sounds interesting and should work (ala Mitchel). I'll check on this and get back to you.

10. See Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

11. Correct, a copy is the newest thing created, so it goes on top. I like your request and I'll file it. My only worry is that novice users who don't understand drawing order and layers might get confused: I just copied this thing and why is it hiding behind other things.

12. See Precise Move in LayOut 3.0.

13. Are you vector rendering? Vector rendering re-renders the entire model. We suggest working in low resolution raster until you're ready for final output. If not, respond back, and we'll look at what else it could be.

Thanks for the feedback. If I missed something, please respond back or clarify my misunderstandings.

Confirm that by exporting a 2D png from SketchUp and see if it matches LayOut. I just tried it and it worked for me... can you give me more details of what's not matching up for you?

b

That was a bug in 2.1 - we fixed it in 3.0. In 3.0 there are occasions where you may get one duplicate, but only one.

b

Aerilius - unsuccessful for you does not mean unsuccessful for everyone, and whom did I offend?

b

I'm coming to this thread a bit late, since I'm usually in LayOut Land. We love ruby just as a lot of you do, but it's not for everyone. Just as Apple can easily see that their top crashes are Flash-based, we in QA see ruby crashes, and to quote Bono: "uno dos tres catorce". And there are probably a few on the top crash list sprinkled between tres and catorce. That's OK for some of you, in exchange for the power you get, but just like trying to get your older relatives to adopt Linux, you may find that it's not for everyone. Just be considerate of others opinions, and we'll keep trying to listen to yours.

b

The PPC decision was driven by Apple - they're done with PPC, so we are, too. It greatly decreased the size of our installer.

On nothing in /Library/Application Support for LayOut, we had previously moved LayOut to have it's templates & scrapbooks a part of the app bundle (more inline with the typical drag install of Mac apps). We'd like to do the same with SketchUp and Style Builder, but that didn't make it on the radar for SketchUp 8.

b

LayOut can't turn on / off SketchUp layers - you have to set up scenes. LayOut is set up to only export LayOut layers, not SketchUp layers. So to export your layers separately from SketchUp, you'd have to first set up scenes in SketchUp, then set up views in LayOut to match those scenes to export to DWG.

b

OK, now that LayOut 3 is out, you'll find DWG/DXF export. It's a first version and not free of bugs, but please try and give us feedback.

Some of the things like (9) - auto page numbering: you could encourage us to do ruby API in LayOut, and that's probably how that and man other features will get implemented.

I'd encourage anyone who'd like to contribute: NOW IS THE TIME! We just shipped LayOut 3.0, and we've opened up a Moderator page to take your LayOut Next Version ideas at https://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=24a7a or find it off of our blog page http://sketchupdate.blogspot.com/

b