@jason_maranto said:

I know personally what this is like (do you?)

not really.. i make instructional videos all the time but i share them freely.. if i know how to do something that someone else wants to know how to do, i'll show them what i know..

i've had a design of mine patented by another company before.. to the point of it now being illegal for me to build the thing i designed and built in the first place.. probably not the smartest way for me to deal with it in moneymakingmanhattan culture as i probably missed out on a bunch of cash but i just moved on from it and continued to evolve my designs.. it was the more fulfilling choice for me personally.

@unknownuser said:

That is my reality -- to you this may be abstract, but I see this in person. So please don't act like you have some special insight into the high view here.

ok. my bad.

@jason_maranto said:

And you just sidestepped the point... what you are saying has absolutely no relevance to the point that it does not need to happen at all in the first place.

actually, no i haven't sidestepped it and it's what i've been saying all along.. i get it that my thoughts may be on the abstract side of things but really, i don't think you're looking at it from all angles.. it seems you're mostly focused on results you can see yet you're completely avoiding the causes or root nature which makes the results possible in the first place.. change the root actions and the results you're trying to prevent disappear automatically.. you're focusing on the wrong stuff.. trying to put bandaids all over the place instead of fixing the core causes.

@unknownuser said:

But to humor you, what if for instance Trimble decided to institute a region blocking scheme for countries where the culture was deemed "too different" to be a viable for a business venture (your examples of China and India). That is not discrimination, that is simply an practical evaluation of potential profitability and prudent protection of their assets. However, I would be willing to bet that some users within those regions are willing to pay -- why should they be penalized for the poor behaviour of others?

why are you trimble's piracy cop? how do you know software companies aren't a bit further evolved in their views of piracy than you? how do you know ms windows cracks aren't being made my microsoft themselves? why is osx free? why does their iWork suite cost only $9?
etcetc..

@unknownuser said:

Again I come back to the reality that theft does not need to happen in this age of open source software

and again, i come back to it's only theft in your eyes.. a pirate in thailand is only a criminal in your eyes.

go back a hundred or so years in your own country.. you have americans owning slaves and/or killing black people with no penalty.. are they criminals?

@jason_maranto said:

Your framing of theft as justified by socio-political and economic factors seems to

those are just a couple of factors.. the larger factor at play here is that we're talking about entirely different cultures but many are speaking in a way of "I think like this therefore everybody in the world should think like this".. it's shortsighted and basically leads to war.. (which, ironically enough, is the much larger crime or act of inhumanity)..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2012/07/22/in-china-why-piracy-is-here-to-stay/

@unknownuser said:

“China is the total flip-side of the U.S. Piracy goes back to the China world view that individual rights don’t matter. The courts have never evolved to protect innovative individuals. There is still very much the ethos that economic growth has to be managed, so individual and intellectual property, where the spoils go to one entity or one person, is not a cultural value,”

you're saying it's illegal and immoral etc and in our culture, it is.. but to someone in some other culture, it is very possible that it's not seen that way.. for one, it's not illegal or it's a very grey area as to legality.. further, someone in india doesn't go through the same thought process as someone in france.. the french pirate will likely be dealing internally with a moral choice "it is wrong to do this but should i do it anyway?".. where as that notion isn't even entering the equation for someone in a different culture..

if we're going to do things on a global scale, we have to consider every individual or culture existing on said globe.. if we don't then it leads to wars which are fought for the lamest of reasons (we don't think/look/act alike)..

now, i don't have much of a problem with injecting or influencing pure thoughts into other cultures.. however, i am far from believing the u.s possesses such purity.. our country is a bunch of b.s and crimes against humanity happen on a daily basis at very large scales.. we aren't good.. we aren't the good guys.. so it's stupid for us to invade other countries and try to instill our crap morals in place of their crap morals.

when i see in our own country that things like racism,sexism, classism etc are no longer existing -- then let's talk about spreading our values to other lands.. until that time, take a step back and see that our way isn't the right way.

add-
and yes, we ourselves should question what the causes of our wrong ways are.. it's possible money is poison.. it's possible the hoarding of knowledge/technology andor ownership of said things is poison.. these are ideas we must question ourselves in order to better society.. just because things are they way they are and the way they've been since you were born doesn't mean it's the right way.. it's just what you're used to-- that's all.. it's incredibly likely that there are much better ways.

@krisidious said:

I'm simply commenting on your point that money is unnatural, so we should not begrudge those that don't have enough and feel they must steal. Is that not the point you were making?

no.. wasn't trying to say that at all!
sorry for the confusion.

(like- i quit talking about the software piracy stuff when i said smthng like 'and that's all i have to say about that' (forrest gump voice)

that's fine and all.. and I don't have any particular disagreements with that.

but based on what you just posted, how does that relate to the original statement I questioned.

you said it's unnatural to not buy something. but now you're saying anything that's ever happened is natural.. so what did you mean by unnatural?
do you see my confusion. i don't think you're making much sense. or-- not maintaining a consistent viewpoint.

@krisidious said:

You base your assumption on the idea that we are not natural...

uh. what?

@unknownuser said:

Money is natural

this feels silly for me to even argue about.. if we're going to back-n-forth on whether or not money is natural, i highly doubt any of the worthwhile points will have a speck of a chance to be communicated.

natural |ˈnaCHərəl|
adjective
1 existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind

i've pretty much said what i have to say on most of the topic but this part is a bit different:

@krisidious said:

I'm not into the whole free everything kick that a lot of the world seems to be into, I don't buy into it, it's unnatural.

money is not natural.. show me one instance of money occurring naturally in the known universe and i'll ..(well, i'll do nothing i just want to see what you mean buy "it's unnatural to not buy things")

@rich o brien said:

@jeff

Mike is actually very vocal about software pricing. He sees the need for some regulation internationally. But that's a whole other discussion.

oh.. i just mentioned mike so i could re-post that chart.. wasn't meaning to imply anything about his (or the site's) views if that's what it seemed like.

@unknownuser said:

Whether it copyright law, thievery, or any other subject the main aim of this community is to educate.

Inaction is not education

i get that.. but at the same time, the eduction so far is -- don't talk about pirating software or you'll be banned..
even though it's very likely that a significant amount of people here do pirate software.

so it's shunning people instead of helping/educating.. or maybe-- it's an attempt at 'helping' someone by making them feel embarrassed for their actions.

not entirely different than ,say, a heroin addict.. don't help & educate the addict or the general public-- instead, put them in jail and make them feel as if they're not welcome in society.. it's not addressing the cause nor preventative measures and instead only focuses on results occurring after it's too late.

@hellnbak said:

Jeff, I admire your passion and your conviction. I do not agree with much of what you say, but I'll have to leave it to others who are better able to express their thoughts to rebut your flawed logic.

i don't expect many people to agree.. especially when i don't really express in the best or most convincing manner.. basically i guess it boils down to me having a problem with people reaping the benefits of globalization while ignoring the type of damage it can cause when not done with pure intent.. globalization is not happening with the goal of bettering mankind.. it's happening with the goal of bettering the lives of very very few people.. and any of the negative effects, such as software piracy, well-- those people are just criminals.. they're the bad ones..

something mike posted a couple years back:
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=179%26amp;t=49764

americans are angels and armenians are devils.
sorry-- there's more to it than that.

'crime statistics'

..just doing some rough guessing based on that chart and where most members here seem to be from, we're probably looking at around 30%, or 100,000 people here using pirated software.. that's about what i imagined but somehow this thread is completely and totally off-balance with reality..

or is it more of a 'dont ask dont tell' type of policy that should be in play?

and maybe me speculating too much or maybe i shouldn't even say this but.. it's not incredibly tough to see that there are people in this thread shunning kaja for acts they themselves are doing.

@hellnbak said:

Wow, I can't believe how this is escalating - from software piracy to murder and wars and everything in between.

when the argument towards me is 'stealing is stealing' , why stop there.. i mean 'crime is crime', right?

@unknownuser said:

This entire site is dedicated to Sketchup, and while many of us would really like to have a pro version, many simply cannot afford it

this, in a roundabout way, outlines a shortsighted viewpoint.. yes, the site it dedicated to sketchup etc.. but let's not forget, this is a global site.. it's on the worldwideweb and everybody in the whole wide world is welcome here.. it's not just about the u.s or europe or australia.

and right, many people in those places can't really afford sketchup pro.. but just imagine for a moment you live somewhere such as india.

List of countries by average wage - Wikipedia

(en.wikipedia.org)

according to that, a person in luxemburg could buy sketchup pro 8 times with one month wage.. for someone in pakistan, you need to work nearly two months to buy sketchup 1 time.

and that list is only showing the top half of the countries.. most people --by far-- can not afford software at u.s prices.. not that they don't want to pay, they simply can not pay.

so this also outlines an irresponsibility on the part of software companies (not just software but...).. they market themselves as world wide solutions yet they sell based off incomes in the richest country in the world.. further, they're mining the poorer countries for talent.. if youre an awesome coder from india, there's a good chance you're working for a u.s based company instead of providing solutions for your neighbors..

and to be perfectly honest, i really don't think i'm pointing out anything the software companies aren't already aware of.. i highly doubt their business plan consists of "we need to sell at ____ price to everyone in the world in order to be profitable".. instead, it's probably more like "we need to sell at ___ price to people willing and/or able to buy our stuff".. that's how they're doing it, they're more aware of piracy than any of us, and they're not doing much in the way chasing after some kid in the philippines who's using a cracked version of their software.. why? because that kid can't afford the thing in the first place.. they'll never get any money out of him and they're only going to be spending money by chasing after him.

the idea that we should be policing for piracy is a bit ridiculous since the software companies themselves aren't doing much in the way of that.. why is it your responsibility and who are you helping by doing it? things aren't so black and white all the time. i'm pretty sure if you called up the fbi and say 'hey, this kid kaja said he has a pirate version of sketchup.. i got his address and everything' -- they'd laugh at you.
do the same thing with someone in california and they might take you a little more seriously.. there's money to be had from the californian but none to be had from most people in the world.

@unknownuser said:

When they see somebody here on the forums openly flaunting the fact that they have Pro but did not pay for it, if there are no consequences for the theft (and that's what it is), then that very inaction on the part of the moderators sends a message that it's ok, and it will encourage others to maybe do the same.

i just don't believe it.. according to that train of thought, my views on all of this obviously mean i'm a software pirate yet i don't have one single piece of software on my computers that i haven't either paid for or otherwise am using legally under the laws of the united states or agreements with the software companies.

are you going to consider downloading a crack because kaja said he did? is anyone in this thread going to do that? who are these others that you speak of? people are either using pirated software or they aren't.

in my view, it's not our responsibility to punish lawbreakers.. protect the site? sure.. if your site is being used as a means to obtain stolen goods either in public or via pms then yeah, something needs to be done about it.. but being the issuer of consequences over theft --especially a theft that was neither committed towards us nor do we have any actual proof of?? come on.

i break laws.. i smoke weed pretty much every day.. are you going to ban me now? surely you must make an example of me before this place gets overrun by a bunch of loser potheads amiright?

@unknownuser said:

Really? You honestly believe that?

most as in more than 50%? yes.

@krisidious said:

And what pray tell is the root of the problem?

oh idk, money?

aside from that, the people committing the largest crimes which are affecting the most people.. the people committing the most murders etc on our planet are the rule makers and money makers.. (and the line obviously blurs.. they're often the same people doing both)..

if you're living in some country which is in debt to the u.s for a few trillion over some crappy power/resource grabbing deal.. how likely are you to abide by their law when it comes to a software eula? or maybe the u.s invades your country and murders hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.. who is the real criminal here?

the u.s says the war they decide to fight is legal so that somehow means it's legal and it's ok to commit mass murder?
then they bring in their contractors to rebuild the country they just blew up but leave the habitants of said country to foot the bill?

these are incredibly worse than someone downloading a piece of software that they couldn't afford anyway even though they probably work harder than someone in the u.s. who can readily afford the software at the asking price..

if you want to sit around playing world moral enforcer, at least focus efforts on the true criminals.. you see what i'm saying?
(though i don't really expect so.. most people in the u.s are ok with the crimes committed by 'our' government and are ok with the hypocrisy in the laws they create.. but hey, if some brown dude in some far off land uses a software crack, let's burn him at the stake)

@unknownuser said:

The user agreement is built into the software and make no doubt you are agreeing to a contract as soon as you pass the user agreement with the click of yes I agree and start using it. especially being here in the US.

yeah, i don't know.. i never read that stuff anyway.. like never once.

@krisidious said:

Stealing is Stealing.

no it's not.. even our laws make distinctions between different types of stealing.. petty theft, grand theft, strong-arm robbery, etc..

if stealing is stealing, the case of a kid that steals a pack of gum should be handled the same way as the dude robbing a bank..

but that's pretty much what the commercials(etc) imply when comparing a teenager torrenting a song next to a carjacker..

@unknownuser said:

Those who turn a blind eye are not much better than those who do it.

the problem isn't stealing.. not the root of the problem at least.. fix the root and stealing disappears automatically.

i don't turn a blind eye to stealing software (nor do i use pirated software).. it's just that focusing effort on software piracy won't solve the problem.. it's shortsighted.

in the same way our jails are full of drug addicts & dealers.. arresting them and making laws against them aren't going to solve any real problems.. this should be obvious by now.. the more we attempt to criminalize this type of stuff, the worse the 'problem' gets.

@unknownuser said:

When you download the software you make yourself a party to a contract. The Terms of Service, the User Agreement. Doesn't matter where you live, you're bringing yourself under the contract law of the region in which the software is licensed. Will that company or person have the legal reach to harm you? Perhaps not...

when you download it from where? some file hosting site? or when you get a torrent, you've made yourself party to some sort of legal contract? i highly doubt that- sorry

@krisidious said:

So you're the type of person that sees someone robbing a store and says... "Hey, there's cops for that. No my problem."?

it's different.. i know we get to see all those sweet commercials ala "you wouldn't steal a car so don't download music.. it's the same thing!!"

well, it's not the same thing no matter how the fbi (or whoever) tries to paint it as such.

someone robbing a store puts people in the community in immediate danger of self.. stealing a car is taking a hard good in which the owner will no longer have.. etc.

morally, the gap closes but trying to compare a bank robber to someone using a photoshop crack is stretching it too far (imo)

further-- it's actually illegal for me to use a cracked version of suPro.
but is it illegal for someone in thailand to use a cracked version of suPro?

ha.. i just watched that ^ again.. would it be poor form for me to my own post ?

@box said:

Laboriously! You were lucky it was too hot to go outside with a hangover today.

haha. nice

@krisidious said:

If they brag about it? Yes... Communities cannot support theft of intellectual property.

again, just my opinion.. but i didn't see that as bragging.. or definitely not said in any such way as to taint a community by promoting piracy.

dude's probably from india or something where it's basically normal to use pirated software.. different culture.

to me, the part i found most ridiculous was that he's possibly stealing software then complaining about the developers.. it'd be like me stealing a sandwich from the deli then complaining about how their recipe sucks

idk, i wouldn't of banned him but i don't think i've ever banned anybody

multiple personal attacks, sharing cracks, using the forum for personal profits.. that's what i'd ban for but mentioning the usage of pirated software? idk..i'm more lenient i guess.

more of a guess but i'm pretty sure a whole lot more members here than people may realize are using pirated software.. should they be banned too?

anyway- i'm definitely not trying to stir things up in the thread more than they already are nor am i trying to imply rich has done something wrong.. this is a very rare case and that post was flagged by multiple members.. i really don't think there's a problem at all with heavy handed moderation / ban happy overlords around here.. shit happens, you know.. and it doesn't happen very often around here or definitely not at a rate to get upset over
(again, my personal threshold.. i realize some people can get more angry for less and that's fine too.. i'm pretty sure this is squashable though.. that kid will probably be back and he'll probably be a little more considerate of what he decides to say/ who to attack/ etc.. it's sort of a non issue)

oh.. i see.
where's that at? near tahoe or something like that? (or- i was thinking california when i was watching it)

@pilou said:

No rain, No snow

@unknownuser said:

No snow or rain

are we watching the same video? .. it snowed a few times in the one i watched

cool video @sonder.. a lot of people's time lapse attempts never seem to make it to the end.. what did they do-- just mount it to a tree?