[Banned]
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@hellnbak said:
Wow, I can't believe how this is escalating - from software piracy to murder and wars and everything in between.
when the argument towards me is 'stealing is stealing' , why stop there.. i mean 'crime is crime', right?
@unknownuser said:
This entire site is dedicated to Sketchup, and while many of us would really like to have a pro version, many simply cannot afford it
this, in a roundabout way, outlines a shortsighted viewpoint.. yes, the site it dedicated to sketchup etc.. but let's not forget, this is a global site.. it's on the worldwideweb and everybody in the whole wide world is welcome here.. it's not just about the u.s or europe or australia.
and right, many people in those places can't really afford sketchup pro.. but just imagine for a moment you live somewhere such as india.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
according to that, a person in luxemburg could buy sketchup pro 8 times with one month wage.. for someone in pakistan, you need to work nearly two months to buy sketchup 1 time.
and that list is only showing the top half of the countries.. most people --by far-- can not afford software at u.s prices.. not that they don't want to pay, they simply can not pay.
so this also outlines an irresponsibility on the part of software companies (not just software but...).. they market themselves as world wide solutions yet they sell based off incomes in the richest country in the world.. further, they're mining the poorer countries for talent.. if youre an awesome coder from india, there's a good chance you're working for a u.s based company instead of providing solutions for your neighbors..
and to be perfectly honest, i really don't think i'm pointing out anything the software companies aren't already aware of.. i highly doubt their business plan consists of "we need to sell at ____ price to everyone in the world in order to be profitable".. instead, it's probably more like "we need to sell at ___ price to people willing and/or able to buy our stuff".. that's how they're doing it, they're more aware of piracy than any of us, and they're not doing much in the way chasing after some kid in the philippines who's using a cracked version of their software.. why? because that kid can't afford the thing in the first place.. they'll never get any money out of him and they're only going to be spending money by chasing after him.
the idea that we should be policing for piracy is a bit ridiculous since the software companies themselves aren't doing much in the way of that.. why is it your responsibility and who are you helping by doing it? things aren't so black and white all the time. i'm pretty sure if you called up the fbi and say 'hey, this kid kaja said he has a pirate version of sketchup.. i got his address and everything' -- they'd laugh at you.
do the same thing with someone in california and they might take you a little more seriously.. there's money to be had from the californian but none to be had from most people in the world.@unknownuser said:
When they see somebody here on the forums openly flaunting the fact that they have Pro but did not pay for it, if there are no consequences for the theft (and that's what it is), then that very inaction on the part of the moderators sends a message that it's ok, and it will encourage others to maybe do the same.
i just don't believe it.. according to that train of thought, my views on all of this obviously mean i'm a software pirate yet i don't have one single piece of software on my computers that i haven't either paid for or otherwise am using legally under the laws of the united states or agreements with the software companies.
are you going to consider downloading a crack because kaja said he did? is anyone in this thread going to do that? who are these others that you speak of? people are either using pirated software or they aren't.
in my view, it's not our responsibility to punish lawbreakers.. protect the site? sure.. if your site is being used as a means to obtain stolen goods either in public or via pms then yeah, something needs to be done about it.. but being the issuer of consequences over theft --especially a theft that was neither committed towards us nor do we have any actual proof of?? come on.
i break laws.. i smoke weed pretty much every day.. are you going to ban me now? surely you must make an example of me before this place gets overrun by a bunch of loser potheads amiright?
@unknownuser said:
Really? You honestly believe that?
most as in more than 50%? yes.
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i smoke weed pretty much every dayI'm smoking while I type....ummmm, I mean I type so fast the keyboard is smoking...
and I didn't have to play for it. Ok I take all that back. 
Seriously, Some modeling jobs need that kind of medicine. I keep a humidor full of it near by.
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Jeff, I admire your passion and your conviction. I do not agree with much of what you say, but I'll have to leave it to others who are better able to express their thoughts to rebut your flawed logic.
Though I doubt that will happen. I think this thread has pretty much been argued to death and nobody is likely to suddenly change their point of view either way.
I just hope everyone is able to put all this behind them and get back to the real reason we are all here - to learn from each other and show the world the amazing things that can be done with Sketchup (whichever version we happen to use)
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@hellnbak said:
Jeff, I admire your passion and your conviction. I do not agree with much of what you say, but I'll have to leave it to others who are better able to express their thoughts to rebut your flawed logic.
i don't expect many people to agree.. especially when i don't really express in the best or most convincing manner.. basically i guess it boils down to me having a problem with people reaping the benefits of globalization while ignoring the type of damage it can cause when not done with pure intent.. globalization is not happening with the goal of bettering mankind.. it's happening with the goal of bettering the lives of very very few people.. and any of the negative effects, such as software piracy, well-- those people are just criminals.. they're the bad ones..
something mike posted a couple years back:
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=179%26amp;t=49764americans are angels and armenians are devils.
sorry-- there's more to it than that.'crime statistics'
..just doing some rough guessing based on that chart and where most members here seem to be from, we're probably looking at around 30%, or 100,000 people here using pirated software.. that's about what i imagined but somehow this thread is completely and totally off-balance with reality..
or is it more of a 'dont ask dont tell' type of policy that should be in play?
and maybe me speculating too much or maybe i shouldn't even say this but.. it's not incredibly tough to see that there are people in this thread shunning kaja for acts they themselves are doing.
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Mike is actually very vocal about software pricing. He sees the need for some regulation internationally. But that's a whole other discussion.
Whether it copyright law, thievery, or any other subject the main aim of this community is to educate.
Inaction is not education
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@rich o brien said:
Mike is actually very vocal about software pricing. He sees the need for some regulation internationally. But that's a whole other discussion.
oh.. i just mentioned mike so i could re-post that chart.. wasn't meaning to imply anything about his (or the site's) views if that's what it seemed like.
@unknownuser said:
Whether it copyright law, thievery, or any other subject the main aim of this community is to educate.
Inaction is not education
i get that.. but at the same time, the eduction so far is -- don't talk about pirating software or you'll be banned..
even though it's very likely that a significant amount of people here do pirate software.so it's shunning people instead of helping/educating.. or maybe-- it's an attempt at 'helping' someone by making them feel embarrassed for their actions.
not entirely different than ,say, a heroin addict.. don't help & educate the addict or the general public-- instead, put them in jail and make them feel as if they're not welcome in society.. it's not addressing the cause nor preventative measures and instead only focuses on results occurring after it's too late.
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Based on the presumptions made so far it is painting a different picture to what actually happened.
If Kaja had replied to our private exchange then we would be have a whole other convo here.
He/She didn't. A 2nd post was reported. A warning issued. A post was made. Another flag was raised. And so on....
What I see happening here is that a presumption to a comment was made and someone got kicked to the kurb for that comment. Which wasn't/isn't the case.
So, given the choice, I'm sure Kaja would likely handle things diffo. Maybe learn a few things about members here. I dunno? But at least by exchanging views you can then reason with people.
But what I take outta this is that your damned if you do and your damned if you don't.
Regards the third reported post in this thread. That too has been dealt with and discussions occuring privately.
BTW, I agree with your opinion. But there are times when you have to admin/moderate a forum to the communities wishes. If you didn't and sheriffed the placed to your own opinions it would likely become 'forumtown' with 'virtual sticks' being used to police members.
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I support that SCF moderators do a good job treading the line and also have a right to do as they see fit here.
Personally I felt it was a little troll-like. Whether that had anything to do with the ban or not. OP kept pushing on the same opinion, without much of a discussion of fact, to get more people to disagree, then began insulting them. It reminded me of a thread years ago, which got out of hand as more people gathered to heap ridicule on an obnoxious kid.
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Jeff, I understand the sympathy you feel for the 3rd worlders who don't have the capital to purchase certain software. I share it. But the real world doesn't work that way. Humans do what you give them incentive to do, not what's right or wrong. If you make sketchup pro cheap for certain nations then you will find other nation's citizens using proxies to purchase through that nation's ip ranges. Whatsmore, most of these 3rd worlds are not competing with each other only in their nation. They compete on the open international market. One job should be able to pay for their software. 90% of them are using the system to make renderings, I've pointed out time and time again how motivated they are to learn and better themselves while we sit on our collective fat asses doing less and less. And I commend them for it. I might even understand if they are willing to steal to do it. But they damn well shouldn't brag about it.
However, that does not negate that theft is indeed theft, while it might not be murder or a large theft, I think there is a least common denominator that must be dealt with and as you said, companies don't have the time or resources to find and litigate these breaches. So we should just let it go? Ignore that we play by the rules and they don't and then we should use our time to help them, explain things to them and assist them in their theft?
I'm not into the whole free everything kick that a lot of the world seems to be into, I don't buy into it, it's unnatural. Just because you want something doesn't mean you deserve to have it for free. I also don't buy into because a company makes a profit it's ok for me to steal from them. I feel that the only way to protect all of our intellectual property is to protect each other's intellectual property. And that includes Sketchup a company that has brought me into the 3D world, given me a great avenue to sell my designs and done so on a very affordable level.
Now on to another thing... Someone here reported one of my posts in this thread, not sure which one, as slanderous to them or someone else perhaps. I think if you re-read my posts you'll see I make no statements about anyone, I only ask questions about clarification of statements. If you feel I slandered you or someone else I apologize, that was not my intent. But, if slander is saying that someone who steals software is a thief. Well, I'm unapologetically guilty of that.
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i've pretty much said what i have to say on most of the topic but this part is a bit different:
@krisidious said:
I'm not into the whole free everything kick that a lot of the world seems to be into, I don't buy into it, it's unnatural.
money is not natural.. show me one instance of money occurring naturally in the known universe and i'll ..(well, i'll do nothing
i just want to see what you mean buy "it's unnatural to not buy things") -
In my village the barter system returned after the economic crash.
It was actually quite refreshing to see people trading favours, goods and skills in return for similar.
Money isn't power. Money is just powerful. Goodwill is the most natural currency we have.
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@jeff hammond said:
i've pretty much said what i have to say on most of the topic but this part is a bit different:
@krisidious said:
I'm not into the whole free everything kick that a lot of the world seems to be into, I don't buy into it, it's unnatural.
money is not natural.. show me one instance of money occurring naturally in the known universe and i'll ..(well, i'll do nothing
i just want to see what you mean buy "it's unnatural to not buy things")Conservation of energy is natural. Human nature is a force to deal with as well. We are to varying extents lazy, cheating, liars. So is it somewhere in between? I think a trade system of some sort helps all communities. I would hope we can have a system that allows commerce to develop in poorer areas on a fair basis. Access to capital and affordability--not dependence on handouts or subterfuge. Let's Kris and Jeff duke it out.
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You base your assumption on the idea that we are not natural... Money is natural... It has existed since the dawn of civilization. Naturally, people do not give without receiving, be it money, goods, services or even good feelings. Money is a extension of the barter system of trade itself. Society will never exist with out money. Capitalism is the economic version of natural order ie survival of the fittest. Money is the physical manifestation of labor. It represents value because it must be earned, it has value because a group of people agree to the value of it. Burn all the money in the world and you'll be trading furs, labor, food or services. they are all forms of money. Money is just a convenient form in which to trade.
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@krisidious said:
You base your assumption on the idea that we are not natural...
uh. what?
@unknownuser said:
Money is natural
this feels silly for me to even argue about.. if we're going to back-n-forth on whether or not money is natural, i highly doubt any of the worthwhile points will have a speck of a chance to be communicated.
natural |ΛnaCHΙrΙl|
adjective
1 existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind -
I think you answered your first question with the second... You base your assumption on the idea that humankind is not natural. Like the makers of the dictionary you quote. Mankind likes to set itself aside from nature, to coin terms like "man-made", "natural" etc. When in reality everything that is, was, it may be reorganized for a short time, but everything is made of the same elements... Everything that exists in the universe is natural. We are natural... Do you think that someone made up 2+2=4 or did they just figure out a natrual truth of the universe? Do you think the spoon was invented or was it just discovered? Do you think the wheel was invented by one man's brilliance or was it a natural progression of evolution? Would the spoon and the wheel not also be discovered on any planet where intelligent life came to be? Would 2+2=4 there as well? Would money not also exist?
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that's fine and all.. and I don't have any particular disagreements with that.
but based on what you just posted, how does that relate to the original statement I questioned.
you said it's unnatural to not buy something. but now you're saying anything that's ever happened is natural.. so what did you mean by unnatural?
do you see my confusion. i don't think you're making much sense. or-- not maintaining a consistent viewpoint. -
I'm simply commenting on your point that money is unnatural, so we should not begrudge those that don't have enough and feel they must steal. Is that not the point you were making?
I'm stating that the natural order of things is to trade in kind, be it money, goods or services.
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@krisidious said:
I'm simply commenting on your point that money is unnatural, so we should not begrudge those that don't have enough and feel they must steal. Is that not the point you were making?
no.. wasn't trying to say that at all!
sorry for the confusion.(like- i quit talking about the software piracy stuff when i said smthng like 'and that's all i have to say about that' (forrest gump voice)
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@jeff hammond said:
(like- i quit talking about the software piracy stuff when i said smthng like 'and that's all i have to say about that' (forrest gump voice)
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Jeff, I am not inclined to get into a lengthy debate over morality or world politics -- however I do feel compelled to point out that clearly there are viable (and even excellent) alternatives to piracy:
- SketchUp Free
- Other free modeling softwares (too many to list)
- Open source softwares (Blender comes to mind first)
Instead of arguing about the inherent unfairness of the software pricing system, I would simply point out that legal alternatives are abundant -- so clearly to use a pirated version is a willful act of theft.
Your framing of theft as justified by socio-political and economic factors seems to completely ignore that fact that it does not need to occur at all, and in fact is nothing more than being too lazy to look for a legal alternative among the huge list of available options. The tragedy there is by supporting open source softwares the pirates could actually help level the economic playing field and thereby make the world a better place.
Best,
Jason.
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