@tomot said:

Lets have a look at the financial side: ...

As far as I know, Google philosophy is about trying things out and seeing what possibilities arise from them. I don't believe they bought Sketchup so they could boast the best 3D software to bolster their quarterly returns. If this is true, suggestions for such possibilities should be far more productive than irritating "annoyances", and hopefully result in a far greater acceptance of 3d models as a key part of everyday life (like instructional animation for example). The result would be a greater demand for 3d modellers. If this is to be a new market, the type of models (raw and light, high-end rendered) will be determined by it.

Chris

@jap said:

Is there any script which fixes the square metres of a object? I think this could be very useful. For architects for example sometimes a client wants a certain square meter.

Not a script but an idea how to tackle this thorny question particularly related to floor areas. I say thorny because so much faith is put into square foot allowances that it can override better considered design criteria. More later.

Anyway the idea is based on creating SU elastic nets (something like bounding boxes). Components are used to "fill out" these nets, the extremes being joined by straight lines (as is the case with elastic). Moving a component beyond a boundary will expand the net. As all the boundaries are straight lines, I guess the enclosure can be simply triangulated and area recalculated and reported after every move +++ see post after next.

From my point of view this would help illustrate a proper balance between historically strong square foot allowances, physical and legal site limitations and practical or aesthetic proportions, amongst other considerations.

SQUARE FOOT ALLOWANCES

Here is one source of square foot allowances and here a calculation.

Circulation area allowances account for some 40% of the gross. Let's assume that is accurate. Supposing there is a change to the accommodation resulting in this:

About 35% has been knocked off the circulation allowance but there may well be the same legal and practical minimum requirements for toilets, elevators, primary and secondary means of escape and so on.

With Sketchup we can deal directly with models like the ones in the website linked above, and simply substitute calculation with modelling.

What do think?

Chris

@chrisglasier said:

I guess the enclosure can be simply triangulated and area recalculated and reported after every move.

Rethink - use the entity info as AcesHigh suggests above or extract the area to a web dialog so it can be incorporated into an analysis or somesuch.

I wonder why the entity info result is in square millimetres not square metres to two places of decimals as is common in sensible metricificated places.

Chris

@linea said:

@unknownuser said:

there has never yet been a comprehensive move for manufacturers to be brought in to the design process as early as possible,

Depends where you work, I know plenty of design practices (ourselves included) that get potential manufacturers in straight away.

There is a difference betweeen "comprehensive move" and "getting them in", and it's not the fault of architects. I have discussed this with many in various parts of the world, and it nearly always comes down to old-fashioned notions of accountability. Here is a couple of diagrams we made years ago to illustrate the difference between traditional competitive tendering and potential competitive collaboration.

@unknownuser said:

... aren't there more tangible, immediate things that google could do with SU?

Use it to promote models as the basis for data linking infrastructure perhaps ?

My regards

@kwistenbiebel said:

I tried to avoid having a 'classic' wishlist here, hence my first post.
Maybe I need to change the thread title.

Sorry I was responding to: "The question that pops up is how you guys see the future for Sketchup?" that I read in the first post, and it seemed necessary to add the wishlists bit for balance.

Chris

@linea said:

Maybe I'm shortsighted but is all this virtual product stuff really necessary?

Well maybe not short sighted but please consider this:

As far as I know designers have always made "virtual products", it is just that they call them drawings, sketches, models and so forth. All I'm suggesting is that instead of the designer making a model of a door, manufacturers' make their own versions and each offers it directly in the designer's interface, most importantly when requested (designer clicks Find). For this to work the versions have to be compatible. Sketchup provides a simple method for them to be so with very few rules.

@unknownuser said:

Advertising and media agencies will be all over this straight away, then SU is going to need very high end rendering capabilities to satisfy the marketing reps selling these products.

No I don't think this is true. More likely rather than use traditional agencies, manufacturers will look directly to expert modellers to provide models suitable for intended purpose. For general design and construction purposes they would likely be raw and light with emphasis on supporting data; for presentations, yes, probably high end rendering.

@unknownuser said:

For the architecture industry I think SU have already missed the boat, probably were never on the same boat as apps like Revit that let you integrate building products.

Absolutely not - there are very few manufacturers doing this; there has never yet been a comprehensive move for manufacturers to be brought in to the design process as early as possible, yet they contribute an ever increasing amount of design input. I think the aim is to persuade building owners to require their designers use accurate models of real products. Then the building industry will then have a chance to act like a proper industry.(Egon-esque!)

@unknownuser said:

But for consumer products I can't see SU being instrumental in this way.

I think, with respect, separating out consumer products is irrelevant, simply because we live, work and shop in buildings, and whatever we consume should be accommodated by their design. (e.g. how many Barbie dolls fit on a supermarket shelf?)

What I think is better than having wishlists for improving SU is to suggest other ways for SU to fit in with what seems to be Google philosophy. (i.e aiming higher than the SU team)

Chris

@jmmad said:

3.- Concentrate efforts to take the 3D to the web once and for all.

I absolutely agree; here is my take on that:

Rather than starting with a wishlist, I suggest we try to persuade Google that Sketchup should be a major element in linking human activities via the web; and that both the design and promotion of SU 8 should reflect this.

My summary conclusion is that producers should provide accurate Sketchup models of their products and present them, not in a warehouse, but directly in the user interface. Models are promoted in a file sharing type network, each with its own data formatted for comparative analyses. Users call up previews, download alternative products and assemble selections in their own models.

I believe this plays to three key elements of the web - searching, advertising and, not yet really exploited, data sharing - and, technically and commercially, works as well for water taps as for major developments.

Chris

Gaieus sent me the following messages:

@unknownuser said:

Yeah, there have been several occasions (demand) for a chat channel at SCF (we could actually implement it quite easily even in a way that all the users registerd and signed in at SCF are automaically signe in with the sme details in the chat).

The only concern was that a forum will always allow the "acumulation" of knowledge while a chat is ephemeral and is easily lost.

I'll have a closer look now, thanks.

later:

@unknownuser said:

I still don't see anything wrong with this, Chris (after reading the whole topic).In fact,it could be fun!

This is helpful don't you think?

Chris

@thomthom said:

There should be some existing webpage IRC packages out there, which should be pretty straigth forward to add to a webdialog.

I am trying mIRC.... downloading now.

If I can make it work, then I think the next thing is to see if the conversation can be recorded and posted on SCF.

Chris

Edit: Gaieus is this kind of thing acceptable to admin?

Edit: Struggling to understand ... maybe too old! Help needed if considered worthwhile.

@chris fullmer said:

I'd like you to start a sketchucation irc channel and then make a plugin that quickly logs the user into the chat channel so we can all sit on irc inside of SU. I tihnk that would be great

Chris

Cripes! I have no idea how to do that. Perhaps someone else would be so kind. There's also the problem that I'm at GMT + 8. But I like the idea very much.

Chris

@chris fullmer said:

I think he wants the broswser to be a 3d object, not a normal browser window. So you could rotate it, walk behind it, etc. Almost like a meterial that actually is a browser.

Would be cool,

Chris

Maybe, but if that is the case it seems to me like technology for technology's sake. On the otherhand while working in SU having ready access to and from the "world" via a browser or some other portal like a data sharing interface seems to me a step towards my mantra below!

Chris (another)

If you simply want any browser, or any window to remain always on top while you work in the Sketchup display, you could use this AlwaysOnTopMaker. It's freeware. Toggling takes a bit of getting used to.

If you want to link what you are working on in SU to open some url then you need to have a webdialog as previously described + some ruby and javascript code.

Chris

@fbartels said:

@alexschreyer said:

Where can I get it?

Google SketchUp 8 ... in our dreams.

The video is just a simulation.

Well I am not exactly sure I get what you mean because you show the browser in perspective. But you can get this:

via Google Search with this web dialog:

#Select all; c+p to text editor; save as Machine.rb; place in plugins folder; restart SU

def machineRb
      
@dlg = UI;;WebDialog.new("Machine", true, "Machine",739, 641, 150, 150, true)
      
@dlg.set_url "http://www.google.com"

@dlg.show()
      
end 

if (not file_loaded?("Machine.rb"))
    
UI.menu("Plugins").add_item("Machine") { machineRb }
	
end
	
file_loaded("Machine.rb")   

I don't see how to get the browser toolbars, menus and so forth**, but I'm sure there must be a way.

Hope this is helpful

Chris

**edit: maybe you don't need these, just use links in dialog or via components.

And there is always the context menu:

Here's some very preliminary coding for a single cycle just to see if this kind of animation would suit your purpose. Here is a video clip in case anyone else is interested in this type of thing ...[flash=400,300:1x2no254]http://www.youtube.com/v/5Y4RFyNm5Vo[/flash:1x2no254]

and screenshots of web dialog at different stages.

Please note:

The coding is for PCs only.

Unzip the .rb file and folder to Sketchup plugins subdirectory and open sheetCuts from plugin menu.

This is not a traditional rectangle optimisation tool (although it could have one) but a device to produce:

... instructions for automated or attended machines
... animation for checking handling, sequence, timing and so on
... various preferences, details, analyses and other options (nothing compiled yet)

Click on underlined words to select offset percentage or dimension, trim or cut, and to set rotate and settings. The number of cuts is calculated automatically. The final offcut is shown. Inputting a new number of cuts overwrites the automated calculation. I think this satisfies your PM request?

Prev and Next will later be available to review and edit.

I think this will be useful as a device for designing plywood or MDF furniture and sheet metal panels and so on. If you can find a use for it for your paper cutting problem, all well and good, but it will take a little time before it is really functional.

Chris

sheetCuts.zip

Scott Schiller, the author of the tutorial mentioned above, sent me this:

This is interesting stuff, I had no idea there was a Google Sketchup community etc. For animations and so on in JS, I might consider looking at some of the modern javascript libraries like Yahoo! User Interface, http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/ or JQuery, http://jquery.com/ which have useful animation components that allow you to easily create and run arbitrary tweened animations on various properties of HTML elements.

I'm looking into his suggestions; if useful I will post some example videos.

Chris

@unknownuser said:

Yep. I meant - the modifier of Namesets records. So if I would move a component Brick (Index number 10) it would cause an update in the record first and then as a result - refresh position on the screen for other users. Mine brick would be in correct position already. Does it sound reasonable?

Yes, but I would like to discuss the business of refreshing.

First namesets allows you to have the whole model displayed or only a part. The full set of records (a js array) is always updated but only the required components and groups will be called to display.

Say a designer was responsible for a "typical" floor in a hotel guestroom tower. She has assistants working on the guestrooms, bathrooms, circulation areas, walls and service ducts and so on. Generally each assistant has just the entities he is responsible for displayed, simply because it would be very distracting to see other entities moving around out of his control. On the other hand the walls and service duct guy needs to see the spaces, but he has the option either to filter them out alternately or to temporarily switch off updating completely. The team leader, of course, sits back and watches the design process like a film - her screen showing the whole floor being refreshed after any change. She also has the option to use SU tools to have a good look round.

@unknownuser said:

If an user would select a brick, plugin would block its record for editing by others and wouldn't let them move that particular brick.

Yes, hence the importance of updating the record first and updating the display from it. (One record entry identifies the team member.)

@unknownuser said:

The problem is that for a big model the amount of records would be enormous. Will Namesets handle 100,000 components relatively fast?

The records are plain text when stored (ave 91 bytes per 24 entry record) and a simple three level js array when in memory. Actually the main reason I animated the NS UI was it was so fast you did not see it change. The restraint is the display ...

@plot-paris said:

you should rather ask: "Does SketchUp itself handle 100.000 components relatively fast?"

this nameset thing sounds quite good. although that means, that if I edit a component that is lets say 10.000 polygons heavy, all this information will have to be uploaded and not only the changes, right?
it also means, that updates are only shown, once the person exits the component and therefore finishes the modeling process (no live modelling), right?

how do namesets behave with nested components?

I will try and discuss this altogether as the items raised are interrelated.

NS tries to get as close as possible to real objects and processes. Components are not grouped with SU tools but by the hierarchy of the Nameset. Each set, which normally includes other namesets, represents (and exposes) human ideas. Nesting is an intellectual device not a physical one. This allows crosslinking so that, for example, the same component can be put in a container, lifted in a hoist and positioned in a space, and, if it is a table, booked for dinner.

Up to now I haven't really looked very deeply at using namesets from a strictly Sketchup modeler's point of view. I have only considered components and groups, meaning your 10000 polygons would need to be in a file. NS would have to be told to reload a revised file. The main thing is the record; I would be very happy to see multi-lateral means to create and maintain it.

Changes can be made on the fly (only affected objects are moved) or completely regenerated.

On the question of live modeling I think I can say no more than what I wrote above.

@chris fullmer said:

I would guess that handling large amounts of components would be fine, unless someone was trying to move all of them at one time on the x, y, and z axes. Then the namesets would be trying to update 3 properties (x,y,z) on 100,000 entities. I don't know how many bytes of info that turns into, but I'd guess it would be pretty big? So the transfer of that info over the network would be slow, THEN you'd have to worry about how slow your SU would get once it recieves the updated coordinates and attempts to move those same components to match the updated nameset coordinates.

I am really not worried about updating the record and transmitting it. But I am concerned about the display. I have noted some options that can help and I am working on other filters and so forth so that only what is needed is generated.

@chris fullmer said:

We need someone who has developed multiplayer games so they can write the server and client programs and get them to send namesets data back and forth smoothly.

Yes!! Any multiplayer games developer please step up to the plate! Also I think it is good to think of namesets as a game combined with filesharing and a machine-like UI. I don't know if it is clear that namesets exist to cope with the diversity of human endeavours; this needs to be taken into account; the structure and nature of the data is as important as the coding that automates it.

Please visit the website; it may help clarify my meanderings.

Thanks

Chris

Let me try and analyse this bit by bit.

@unknownuser said:

Let's assume, for a sake of simplicity, that we have a Nameset containing transformations of a single component called 'Brick'
.

Better to omit transformations I think - "Let's assume, for a sake of simplicity, that we have a Nameset containing a single component called 'Brick'".

@unknownuser said:

SU would serve as a display for the Nameset

Precisely.

@unknownuser said:

... and as a modifier.

I think this is confusing. The brick would have a record which includes index no, name, fileName, x, y, z. It is the record that gets modified before the instruction to display.

@unknownuser said:

Would it be hard to make it work in a network?

The record is a comma separated value. As far as I can see, you can do anything with it, whether on a standalone machine, LAN or Internet.

Let me leave it there for now and see if you think I am progressing.

Chris

@l.frisken said:

Sorry Chris

No need for sorry. But you could help me by telling me what part of namesets you find difficult. Ask as many questions as you like. My problem is that I'm so deep into it all seems obvious - that is very bad!

Chris

@l.frisken said:

@chrisglasier said:

The development of namesets is intended precisely for that - visit NS website and let me know whether this matches what you have in mind.

Cheers

Chris

Kind of but What I was thinking about was something much more simple so that it would be easy to set up and use(like the synchronise button)

Let me say this. You are in danger of thinking up dozens of what appear simple solutions that will soon become very complicated to control and use. If you really want to get to grips with this, start with thinking about an operating system and an infrastructure. Think about how DOS and subdirectories underpinned the PC, and apply the principles to data structures. It is the data structures that will do the synchronising and, with devices, model generation.

Now data belongs to objects and objects have names, hence I came to the conclusion that names are the lowest common denominators, i.e. they can be manipulated into sets to represent both simple and complex ideas (a teapot, building, town ...). You may not agree. However I am willing to share what I have done over the years provided it is used in a sincere effort to improve everyday work.

Chris

Thanks Chris for the bump!

Dear /// from New Atlantis, how's the weather?

Namesets is actually an application under development that is an IT version of a spreadsheet, where animated sets of names are used instead of blank rows and columns (as you will have seen from the website). It can be plugged into Sketchup to generate a display or any other software that accepts plain text (csv).

Namesets also has its own plugins which I am hoping the community will help with for the common good. The first is for standalone analytical animation, the introduction to which is here. If you would like to be involved in that let me know.

Also if you have experience in Javascript and have some free time, I would very much appreciate your criticism and comments. If so, I will send you the files.

Anyway, thanks for your interest; I too wish that the plugin was available!

Chris