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@jbacus said:
@jgb said:
FIX WHAT IS BROKE first.
Please define what broke things you'd like fixed. Do you disagree with the wants and needs of the archviz folks who would like us to prioritize the list of things I itemized above?
john
.First, I'm not sure what you mean by "archviz folks".
This is the list of SU shortcomings I have complained about since nearly day 1 of my using SU (Aug 2008). Some may say a few are added features, but I say SU should have incorporated them as intrinsic functions I would expect from the design team. I have stated all of them on various SU BBS's, and quite frankly, John, you are the first Senior SU team member to respond to my postings. Kudos for that.
My 3 biggest "bitches" relate to face forming and Pan/Zoom.
Face Forming
In version 6, at least when a face failed to form with "form face" you gave 1 of 2 error messages, either there was a gap, or the entities were non-planar. A small clue, at the very least. Now V8 just says "Can`t do it", far less than useful. If SU is "smart" enought to know it has an error, please tell me what it is and where. When I was a Project Manager I read the riot act to more than 1 coder and SA that gave an all encompassing meaningless error message after an extensive input data check.1 - Finding a GAP in an entity selection for face forming.
When SU finds a gap, highlight between which 2 entities the gap exists.
If you need a clue how to do this, see TT's Solid Inspector.2 - Cannot form face due to non-planar entities.
You have 2 choices here; either just highlight the non-planar entities, or, face whatever part of the entity set that is planar, leaving the remainder highlighted.
If you need a clue how to do this, see TT's Solid Inspector.Pan/Zoom; Commonly refered to as "Hyper Pan" or "Hyper Zoom". When you select the pan or zoom tool, or wheel to zoom, you need to have the cursor on some entity. Then the pan or zoom rate is proportional to the distance between you and the object, which is logical. However if on subsequent sweeps or wheel rotations the cursor "slips off" an object into empty space the pan or zoom rate goes HYPER and you are off "to the moon, Alice". Getting back to where you were is a real pain.
The solution to this is simple. Maintain the last "on object" pan or zoom rate even over empty space. Maintain this rate till either the cursor is over an object, or some other tool is selected.Startup Tool. Native SU defaults the "Pencil" tool on startup. Many of us have inadvertently marred a model when loading it, then have to delete. "Startup.rb" solved the problem by defaulting to the very much more logical "Select" tool on SU startup.
Almost everybody now uses "Startup.rb" because SU still does not do the logical thing by defaulting to the "select" tool.Restore Toolbar locations. Version 8 is a good try, no cigar. Not sure avout V7, but V6 every now and then would scramble the toolbar locations for no reason.
V8 has a mmenu item to set and restore the toolbar positions. Great, but IT DOES NOT WORK.
Every time I loaded a new plugin in V8 the toolbar for that plugin would set itself in the left side of screen and blow most of the other toolbars out of position. Restore justs does nothing. Please fix it.Units. I know SU was initially and today is predominately an architectural tool. And the choice of units follow that standard. However a lot of users develop models for aerospace and other non-arch disciplines. I use it as a poor mans' 3D CAD.
Most of those disciplines use Feet - Inch - DECIMAL inchas the standard units.
SU needs that set of units. And, no, Feet - Decimal Feet is not a valid alternative.Mouse Buttons. My old Logitech mouse had 12 buttons since way before I started using SU. My current one has 10, all used in most other PC apps.
SU only recognises 5, left/right buttons, wheel down, wheel rotate and wheel left/right.
It would be totally impractical to redefine my mouse keys just for SU, then redefine them as I switch apps while I am using SU. SU needs to be able to recognize those additional buttons regardless of their default function definition.
To solve this, SU needs to "Learn" what each mouse button sends as a function, then redefine that function for SU shortcut purposes. It IS do-able.Additional Keyboard Control Keys. Right now SU only recognises the Tab, Shift and CTRL as control keys for shortcuts and functions. There are several other keys that can and should be used as well; Function keys, the Windows key and perhaps the TAB key. They have no other SU function.
And finally;
Material/Colors list. The Entity Info and Materials lists have a major deficiency. There is no capability to modify the set of colors, textures and materials. Many models collect (via other components and models brought into the model) all sorts of colors (etc) many of which are duplicated, especially black.
There is no way to consolidate all the blacks (for example) into 1 black, or even sort the list to place the most used colors at the top.
Just recently I discovereda plugin to correct this, but not yet loaded it into my SU. BUT this editing & sorting function SHOULD be an intrinsic SU function.Thats it for now. There are others but this list is my oldest bitch list and it has taken about 3 hours to write.
What say you, John??
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@jgb said:
First, I'm not sure what you mean by "archviz folks".
By "archviz" I mean the community of professional SketchUp users who use it as the modeling front end to an advanced (photorealistic) rendering process for the pre-visualization of architectural design projects, either still images or animations. As for example represented in the CGarchitect forums.
From your list of issues, I'm going to guess (please confirm or correct so I can answer your questions more accurately) that you are doing more "MCAD" kinds of projects with SketchUp. In other words, the sorts of projects which might also be done in Solidworks? Things which might eventually be fabricated in a machine shop?
If this is the case, then I can imagine the sorts of problems you are seeing in SketchUp. And to be fair, we didn't design SketchUp for this sort of work. As you may know, SketchUphas a hard lower precision threshold at .001". For folks working on projects from 'furniture' to 'office campus' scales, this precision is perfectly sufficient. For folks working on projects smaller than 'furniture', problems like those you describe can occur. I think this probably accounts for all of your issues with 'face forming' and I'm afraid the only recourse is to scale your project up artificially while you are working. There is no fix for the .001" lower precision threshold coming in a future version of SketchUp.
The issue you refer to as 'Hyper Pan' or 'Hyper Zoom' likely comes from the same root cause as the above issue. You're working close to the lower precision threshold in SketchUp, and tools which have been tuned for use at larger scales are beginning to behave in an less predictable way. You may find that the "Camera>Previous" command will allow you to recover easily from errant Zoom or Pan operations.
The adoption of "Pencil Tool" as the startup tool comes from a historical decision that drawing should be the default behavior in SketchUp. Over time, alternate opinions have asserted themselves. In fact, for several releases, we flip-flopped on this decision. Which folks also found upsetting. In our current build (SU8M1), "Select" is the default tool on our Mac OS X build. Perhaps one day we will also make it so on Windows.
Toolbar positions are very difficult for SketchUp to maintain when you are using lots of Ruby scripts that add their own toolbars. The addition of a new Ruby toolbar is currently the most chaos-inducing thing you can do. We're still working on this problem, but you should know that it is like 'cat herding' for us.
As for your preferred units, I think this is a simple tech support issue. "Decimal > Inches" are supported in SU8 today. In fact, under the hood, SketchUp uses decimal inches natively for all calculations. If you would like this to be the default for all your new models, learn about Templates.
Now for your mouse with all the buttons- this is a tech-support issue as well. SketchUp can never hope to support every mouse in the world natively. There are literally thousands of them. Most mouse drivers for more complex mice include some kind of application-level settings for their buttons. This is your best bet for configuring your mouse to use more buttons in SketchUp.
There will always be some keys on your keyboard that are either reserved by SketchUp for some purpose, or by the operating system. Are you really running out of keys to use for all the thinks you want shortcuts to access?
And finally, Materials. Certainly it is possible to modify sets of materials in SketchUp, though perhaps not in the ways you wish to do so. Probably you'll find some crossover with the archviz folks here (or maybe not?). I find that purging unused materials often solves the majority of my problems with ballooning material lists. A way to consolidate all of the similar colors in a model would be useful and I'm glad you've found a plugin to help you resolve that.
john
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I got some good names if you decide to go with an external UV unwrapper:
WrapUp
CutUp
SliceUp
TextureUpI'm sure there's more...
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
WrapUp
lol.
Seriously, though, I know it's not likely going to happen, but UV-ing in SU would be sweet.
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UV mapping in SU needs to be made simple, there are just too many UV apps out there that are scary for new users, so SU needs to keep it simple somehow.
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I'm all for that, but still: probably easier said than done.
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I agree, although I think it mainly a language thing -- these programs often use very technical terms that can be very off-putting when the underlying concept is really very simple.
For a decent UV unwrap when working with models you really only need:
- A knife tool to select the cutlines (these would just be regular edges)
- A select/group function to specify islands (Sketchups native groups are fine)
- A unwrap "3D skin" button
Sure it would be nice to have edgeloop and symmetry based selection for speed, but those aren't critical. The navigation, move, scale, and rotate tools could all work exactly as in Sketchup.
From there it's all 2D and optimization... and honestly that part should be pretty straight forward.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
(...)the underlying concept is really very simple.
You'll do the tutorial series then. There, that's settled.
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Yep, that's the plan -- I'm actually doing videos right now showing how to do it in ZBrush from Sketchup (they have a very nice plugin called UV Master for this)... but I would love to be able tell people they can stay inside the Sketchup "world" to do this basic task. 
Best,
Jason. -
I used to be one of those continually calling for better UV mapping, but TBH I'm now perfectly happy working within SU just as it is, most of the time. And latterly I've started wrapping entire people...head, hair, clothing; right down to the knuckles on the hand and the seams on the jeans. There are two Rubies that changed all that; in UV Tools and UV Toolset.
For quick modifications within SU itself, I use Remember UVs. For anything more than that...or wrapping an organic shape from scratch I use Export UVs to Obj, then do the actual mapping with Ultimate Unwrap 3D, where you got all the functionality you need, including a wide range of off the shelf mapping modes plus the ability to create UV islands etc. The workflow for this is precisely the same as that called for in an earlier post by DacaD, involving a separate mapping module within SU itself. UU3D works the same as that module. You simply open the proxy obj, do the business, click Save, then switch back to SU and click Import UVs from Obj and the mesh is instantly updated.
Sure, an integrated mapper within SU itself might save you maybe 3 mouse clicks, but given the time it takes to map complex objects, the time difference is infinitesimal. In fact I'm thinking of writing a Ruby button to automatically open the proxy, so that UU3D will, in effect become a module of SU.
It's pretty cheap too.There are plenty of easy things I'd like fixed (like putting edge and face count back into Entity Info. Given SU's intolerance of heavy geometry, this is pretty essential for quickly testing the most efficient method of construction, face-wise.) But UV mapping is now off my list.
Another bug is so old, I remember pointing it out to Jim Holman. If you're zoomed right in and have an edge highlighted, ready for moving, then attempt to move it...it will sometimes move in entirely the opposite direction to the mouse. It's not a scale/tolerance thing. I've had it happen to edges several inches long.
John, I know your aim is to have SU 'play nicely' with other apps rather than building the functionality into SU itself, so can we please have a decent obj importer..like Sycode's. Much of the mass-appeal market is based around the obj format...whether you prefer dae or not (I've stopped generating Collada flavour at FormFonts; no one ever downloaded it; nor have I had a single request for its reinstatement)...and it's a real pain having to convert everything prior to import. -
Allan, for a minute you've put a smile in my face when you said you were mapping characters in SK, but then i've read the rest os your post on how you're doing it. You teaser
.I don't have acess to UU3D so my mapping it's done in Max, and for me that's the problem. Sk limitations made me reuse Max more and more, so as soon as a mesh goes into Max it stays there, specially with the problem with importers you seem to know too. And staying out of SK just for mapping simple stuff for me it makes no sense. Plain and simple, for anyone that used SK intensivly before, Max sucks for modeling, from start to finish, with real measures and the snaps and navigation aren't as good and fluid as in Sk. But once you get better with, you stop fighting it and it stops bothering you (if i could model organic stuff with SK before there were plugins, i certainly can model with real measures in Max).
Just for the record, i don't want a Sk like Max! Max it's a behemonth and there's stuff there that either i don't have use for or simply don't know what it does. But that doesn't mean i think Sk it's perfect right now. The core use, for me at least, for Sk is modeling, mapping and animation/image (more for previz), and each of this departments need tweaks/fixes/basic tools to be in a stage that I can call mature, because i really don't need much more for most work, but each time i have to use other software to do basic stuff like mapping, or tweaking more organic shapes, or modeling something that will be faster or less probable to give me problems, or animating an object from point A to point B, etc, it won't get back to Sk simply because, now, i can do everything in the other software.
With the development team now beeing more focused in Google Earth and Layout, that was what started to push me to other softwares, so as i said in the begining i'm not sure how much i'm still the typical user for Sk, or a user that Sk wants.Best Regards
David
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I still can't figure out why all those who want SU to be like 3DSMax just use Blender! I mean Blender is also free!!
I love SketchUp how it is. Being able to use plugins is great, but it's also great that they are not cluttering up SU's interface. You'll be really hard pushed to find any other modeller as powerful as SU, that even a 6 year-old can use. (My 6 year-old!)
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@tfdesign said:
I still can't figure out why all those who want SU to be like 3DSMax just use Blender! I mean Blender is also free!!
I love SketchUp how it is. Being able to use plugins is great, but it's also great that they are not cluttering up SU's interface. You'll be really hard pushed to find any other modeller as powerful as SU, that even a 6 year-old can use. (My 6 year-old!)
Tfdesign please re-read my post (or see the parts in bold below).
P.S.: and i love Sk or i wouldn't give myself this work wrinting what, why and how to make it better.@unknownuser said:
Just for the record, i don't want a Sk like Max! Max it's a behemonth and there's stuff there that either i don't have use for or simply don't know what it does. But that doesn't mean i think Sk it's perfect right now. The core use, for me at least, for Sk is modeling, mapping and animation/image (more for previz), and each of this departments need tweaks/fixes/basic tools to be in a stage that I can call mature, because i really don't need much more for most work, but each time i have to use other software to do basic stuff like mapping, or tweaking more organic shapes, or modeling something that will be faster or less probable to give me problems, or animating an object from point A to point B, etc, it won't get back to Sk simply because, now, i can do everything in the other software.
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John
Thanks for explaining away just about everything.Yes, I probably could make use of Solidworks, but I do not draw stuff to make shop drawings of small stuff. I design conceptual stuff, like a huge cargo airlifter (320 ft wingspan), and a hangar to house it. Then there is 2.5million sq ft manufacturing facility to make it using a proprietary manufacturing process. My normal lower precision limit is .1 inch, and rarely gets to .001 only when I draw some smaller components in separate drawings.
Precision is not the problem, and scaling up is not the solution for the GAP problem. I get most of the gaps in triangle formation on flat surfaces. I get the gaps because SU snaps my lines just a tad off where I want them when there are more than 1 endpoint very close by and I cannot toggle OFF the snap. Then the triangular face fails to form. V6 said there was a gap but not where, and V8 says nothing about why it won't form. I'm not asking you to fix the gap, just indicate where it is. I can zoom in to fix it myself.
You totally ignored that part. Yeah, I suppose I could set precision to 1 inch, but then stuff won't fit. As for scaling up, SU also has problems with say a 3,200 ft object as well.
Hyper Pan/zoom happens at any scale, precision or distance from the object. I use last view a lot to try and get back, but usually the last view before the hyper-pan is exactly over empty space which caused the problem.
As for the pencil or the pointer tool on startup causing your developers such great consternation, did you ever think of giving us a startup default CHOICE???? There is a whole section on preferences built-in to SU; add that as an item.
So a plugin blows away the toolbar positions. I can accept that. But then what is the function of "Save toolbar locations" and "Restore toolbar locations" in V8? They simply do not work.
Yeah, SU supports Decimal Inch as I always input dimensions to the VCB using feet, inch and decimal inch. SU just does NOT display Feet AND inch AND Decimal-inch. It displays Feet Inch and Fractions of an inch, and others as well, none of which I want to use.
As for complex mice, I gave you the easy solution, button output remap. Give the (any) mouse more buttons (say 10 or 12) and let me define what button I press to do what shortcut I want. That way it matters not to SU what brand of mouse and how many buttons it has.
As for KB control keys, and if I am running out, the answer is a qualified yes. My left hand hovers over the left side and there is only a small number of keys I can easily and quickly hit with thumb PLUS forefinger on the left side. More control keys will help.
As for purging "unused" materials, that is a non-starter if you think about it. The purging only is enabled in the material list, not the Entity Info panel. Then, if I have 2 (or more) objects in my model with say, black, but one was imported from some other SU model, its' black is now a separate and different black. You cannot purge a material in use. I can't even sort the list to put the 2 blacks side by each.
I guess you are right, I have to let the SU community of Ruby Wizards solve the problems SU developers can't seem to grasp, let alone fix.
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@unknownuser said:
So a plugin blows away the toolbar positions. I can accept that. But then what is the function of "Save toolbar locations" and "Restore toolbar locations" in V8? They simply do not work.
It has always worked for me when I do need to use it.
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@jgb said:
Thanks for explaining away just about everything.
Not sure what you're hoping to achieve here, but I am trying to answer your questions. I think I'm going to stop for a bit and show your post to some other folks to see if they can help me understand what you're trying to do. It isn't at all clear to me what work you're doing with SketchUp.
john
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@jgb said:
Yeah, SU supports Decimal Inch as I always input dimensions to the VCB using feet, inch and decimal inch. SU just does NOT display Feet AND inch AND Decimal-inch. It displays Feet Inch and Fractions of an inch, and others as well, none of which I want to use.
do any apps actually support this and/or does anyone/industry use that? if i understand correctly, you want to see 27' - 3 5/8" written as 27' 3.625"?
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In aviation you'd use/see these type of dimensions in detailed/fabrication drawings. Not the feet part though. Just something like - 101.385"
Or in machine shops for close tolerance manufacture/rework.
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Right, I see decimal inches and decimal feet used often enough. Just can't recall seeing them in this particular requested format.
(not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just wondering if there's any real world use) -
Never seen it either. It seems jgb uses it for concept design of aircraft and hangars.
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