We do add a lot of perspective views of details and parts of the building. We just don't want to spend the time to detail everything we need to put on paper in 3D. That's why we also use an application like Vectorworks.

I added another example of how complicated it is to completely depend on 3D work in Sketchup yet. In this example you see a few pages of the work done in 3D with Sketchup.
Please don't click the link of you are on a slow connection, this is a 18 Mb file.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8cmhutqyfzbxuhz/FILLIEVRHOEVEN-EXAMPLE.pdf

Contractors here in Holland subcontract maybe over 80% of the work. They need contract like drawings with very strict dimensioned layouts. In most cases parts are made directly out of our drawings including windowframes. All windowframes are custom made exactly to our specifications and requirements for warranties. Imagine to have to do all this in 3D. Up to now we find ourselves trying to do the impossible in 3D. We want to work in 3d since we do understand the advantages. We haven't found the app or system yet to get it done the way it is required to do.

Something we don't want to do is highly detailed work in 3D as well and seperatly in 2D. Double work as nobody likes. Another thing is we don't want to get stranded in 3D slowing down our workflow or even worse, not getting it done at all and redoing stuff in 2D later on.

I hope the near future brings a single 3D workflow getting the right kind of abstraction like we have in 2D that is easy to work with and understood at the building site. You simply need to be able to meausure dimensions from paper or on an iPad to be able to improvise on site if needed. With an iPad this could be done in 3D but without it I don't now how you could from a perspective view.

Francois

Richard. you are right about white space. It calms down the layout a lot. Sometimes a drawing can look like a total panic trying to communicate rather simple info.

Sonder, in the past I made many of those perspective details. But it does not work here in Holland. We need to measure on scale at the site from the drawing. Just to see if another option or detail would fit or not. We use a lot of A3 sized drawings on a scale of 1 to 1. Very easy to work with, especially for window frame details.

After many years of experience I have found out that providing the least amount of information in the most abstract form works best. And everything we put on paper for the contractor has been dimensioned to a fine level of detail.
And then along with that we also give a few sketchup illustrations. Just to get the idea of what we mean,
The drawings you show, however nice, would be far from effective in our projects. And a lot more time consuming than what we do now. We know since we did exactly what you do some years ago. But I must add that our projects are much and much more detailed and customized for a specific type of building.
And thanks for showing your great work, it does make us think again on how to use Layout & Sketchup.
Francois

HI Mike,
from what I understand it does.
http://www.visualarq.com/info/why-use-visualarq/

But have a look at the video's they provide, all. They seem to have covered a lot of tools to get serious drawings on paper based on active 3D geometry.

Look also at Youtube. Especially Grasshopper looks very interesting.
But to be honest, I am no expert on Rhino, VisualARQ or Grasshopper. I am just looking around shopping for the best tools. Thats how I found Sketchup, Vectorworks, Maxwell and so on. I believe there are no applications you will use for ever. They all follow a certain pattern were you see a lot of development at the start that later stalls when the usergroup gets too big and the pioneers move over to the next frontier.
Francois

DOD3R, you have to keep in mind that although the annotations and 2D graphic functionality of Layout is very bad it still is far ahead of just 2D drafting since you work with a 3D model.
But at our office, working on projects with hundreds of sheets, Layout is not yet fully effective. Others feel it is though. So its worth taking another look at Layout 2013. But Layout lacks a lot of maintance that was negelected over the Google years. I really wonder if you would like to deal with it and if it will save any time over any given project as it is now.
Francois

Rhino, VisualARQ and grasshopper have a little of a learning curve as well as I understand. But some architects whom I regard highly in terms of interest in CAD have taken this road.

Vectorworks is also interesting but to work in 3D in Vectorworks is like going decades back in time. For 3D I have written off Vectorworks completely. But in 2D it can not be beat by anything else. It has gotten expensive though.

The new Macpro looks great. Will cost a lot I think, most likely well over 4 or 5000 euro. Maybe with the new Macpro Layout 2013 will be a more fun experience.

Sketchup/Layout for serious CAD is a new direction. One that Google stated was not interested in. We've been frustrated by Google for years. Sketchup should have developed in direct competition of course without hesitation. But it did not.

Now Trimble stears the boat I am hoping for change. I feel the change but am not yet convinced it will come soon enough. At some point you have to let go since other packages are getting so far ahead you might not catch up anymore.
tx for the compliments on the drawings. We love the work we do and its nice it shows in our work.

Krisidious, we also don't read Greek, wish we did because some architects here go there to retire.
Francois

Here is a link to the typical engineering we do 2D/3D. Don't click the link if you are on a slow connection, its about 6 Mb.
http://fillieverhoeven.nl/downloads_files/005bos.pdf

Models in SU, rendered some in Maxwell and all 2D work done in Vectorworks.
These drawings are for the building permit application. Not all of the application drawings are included.

On the second page you see a list of the drawings. Apart from the graphical appereance its also a worksheet (like Excell) were you fill in the details. With one mouseclick you can update as many sheets for sheetnumbers, dates names etc.

In the Netherlands we are used to provide for very detailed drawings in almost every stage of the process. If at any stage we can't really continue to work in Layout, we have to convert to a more suited application. Imagine the work involved. So either we can fully do the work in Layout or we rather export the models to Vectorworks as early as possible.

To Mike:
I don't know what you mean to say with:

• How does one get that into 2d construction documents?

• Rhino for Mac is not available neither is VisualARQ. Rhino has a beta Mac version that I was told about was not to be taken seriously yet.

Regretfully, my still perfectly in order Macpro's 8-cores with the terrabytes of memory, bought just before 2008 are no longer supported by Apple above OSX 10.6.8. So I can't really tryout Layout 2013 other than on my slightly newer Macbook. A lesson learned, never buy any expensive stuff from Apple. I am expecting the newest Macpro's just anounced will last no longer than 4 or 5 years before they can't run the latest OSX graphic change over.

Revit will never really be our thing either. I just do not like the whole circus around it and the fear Autodesk is trying to put upon us disbelievers with their BIM-stories and pricing policies.

Francois

actually, the bounding boxes generated by the plugin include hidden geometry in the .mxs file.
So you can just add a box somewhere in the .mxs model that reveals the direction of the .mxs model. With a little imagination you can actually place and locate a .mxs reference exactly in SU.
Francois

Mike,
I agree the expense that some of these packages are not very inviting. For us here and many others it takes revit out of our options.
Have a look here http://www.visualarq.com/gallery/videos/
I have no experience with VisualARQ but it looks suprisingly good. The expense seems to be in line with something we might invest in.

I also agee that Layout is getting better and the focus on Layout might be Trimbles ownership now. Also that sounds good. Who wants to model a building just to start all over with another package for the sake of engineering.

But our drawings are a mixup of images, lots of text and dimensions and lots of revisions and include lots of references to sitemaps, pdf's with existing doucments in case of remodelings and so on. So far out of reach of Layouts capabilities that its really useless to start up Layout every once in a while.

And then, Layouts slowness referencing to a Sketchup model does not help. I am no longer patient enough to sit behind my system waiting for redraws and updates. I am used to instant feedback while typing and getting projects to my clients. Just slicing a SU model for further use in Vectorworks is very quick as well.

Its no fun seeing a project slow down because the application is not up to speed. Sometimes its easier on the mind to redo something than to consiously and carefully setting up files and references to get a little benifit later on. Much of the benifit is often waisted because projects don't pull through or are changed so much that the original work is better deleted.
Francois

Hi,
tx for posting your examples. Saw them before in another thread. Not to speak against them, they look impressive but the work in fact is rather simple. Mostly a repetition of more or less the same wooden frames with very little added in Layout.

The work we do is multitude more complex, in amounts of geometry and various types of geometry with a lot more to organize in terms of dimensions and text.

It's not that I think Layout is useless, on the contrary, I think with proper development it shows a lot of potential. But it does not compare to VisualARQ for Rhino, Vectorworks, Revit, or ArchiCad, not even remotely.

If you are working at an architectural office promoting the use of Layout you have to remember it competes with the mentioned applications. All offices finalize drawings based upon 3D models somehow. So, I was just wondering who is actually able to get the work done and how since I could not get much production out of Layout.
The combination Vectorworks and Sketchup is so much faster than the hassle I met with Layout for our projects.

But I do see I need to get into it deeper to see if now and if at all in the near future Layout could become a serious option for at least some part of the design process communicating with our clients.
Francois

well.... I am not going to use Layout anyhow no matter how many times

ok, sorry, I could not help that, I was just distracted by these smilies. Who ever uses these critters. But its late and so ..

tx for the help so far. I am going to set my self up with something simple enough to test with.
If I hear you all right it should be working and in a productive way as well.

I think all has been said about my outcry here on Layout. It seems a matter some basic training. Lets see were I get with that.
Francois

I know about how to convert to 3D modeling and communicating on paper.
I am not looking for all that refinement in 2D at all.

Just a resonable workflow were elevations and some perspectives, maybe a "filled" crosssection with some basic dimensions tell the story of first tryouts of a design.

If this means going complete slowmotion, lets say 90% waiting for redraws and the occaisional input from my side I would go mad. That is how it feels now and to many others I assure you.

So we are doing something wrong. Not just a little here or there but a major step is not clear stalling even the easiests of tasks to a standstill.

I will go and see what it is. But its sure not Sketchup which to me is always fast enough.
Tx, really for the replies, very appreciated.
Francois

tx Chuck,
My problem is also that Vectorworks in 2D is as fast as you will ever need. No lagtime at all what ever you do. Drawings look amazing and you can just import any modeling geometry from Sketchup into Vectorworks. With Layout I am hoping for a more refined modeling-2D/output workflow were models update the 2D work instead of having to redo a lot in Vectorworks. A bit more of a revit experience in a positive sense
Layout could easily be as big as Sketchup. I do understand how powerful the potential is. As said, the replies make me want to give it another try. But as said as well, anyone who has hit a brick wall with Layout I would urge to reply saving me time trying.
Francois

ok, got that. I will try some more.
But its rather clear very few use Layout and that is strange considering the amount of architect-users.

I think many have the same experience I have. But still, you are right. If there is a workflow that makes up for it I will try to find it. I can clearly see advantages if Layout can do even just a little of what it promises.
Francois

ok, thats hopefull. Considering your reply I have to dig into Layout a little further.
But to follow advise from someone who dreams about inspecting mirrors...
Anyone else who thinks Layout just works fine ?
Francois

I am on a Macpro, 8 core 3Gh.
I think for my use Layout is completely useless. I will give it another try with a model as simple as possible. But I don't think Layout is anywere near a productive solution. This was nr. 1 reason nobody uses Layout and I am afraid that will stay that way for a long time.
I know there are a few that go through the hassle to figure out how to minimize models and workflows to get something out Layout. But once you get your work done in Vectorworks or the likes you quickly forget the frustrations in layout. The idea behind Layout is great though. Wish it provided a true CAD experience.
Francois

Since the new version 2013 I thought I give Layout a new try. Who knows. Years ago I did and it was useless. Maybe now things have changed.
I am very experienced with Sketchup, since the beginning and also a Vectorworks user. I use Vectorworks for all things 2D.

I had a small model of a house, nothing too complicated. Inserted it in Layout 2013 and there it was. Looked all right. Then I thought I set the view on vectors and a pizza started rolling till forever and I had to force quit Layout.
I thought I will not do that again, inserted the same model in a new file and tried two views showing front and left side of the house. The slightest thing I wanted to do caused Layout to stall forever and so I thought its still useless.

Am I wrong or is someone developing Layout using two simple volumes with six sides and thinks all is going well for now. If there is anyone who can do something productive with Layout and with some serious geometry in their model help me out. Maybe I am completely missing the point or having set all sorts of parameters all wrong.

The settings at default with a small model crashes the app to a standstill almost immediatly (28 Mb geometry, mostly due to textures)
Francois

Richard,
the proposed material should be looking like Corten perforated or something like it.
I found a powder-coating that almost identical to CorTen from Oxyplast in Belgium. Have to press my nose against the treated steel to see the difference.
Its one thing to get it rendered but then to make it real is another...

Richard, tx a lot.
Its always better to be complimented on the designwork that the render itself.
I am very pleased that my gamble on Maxwell turned out all right. In the beginning it was difficult to see were it was going. But now with JDHill and the rest of the company they seem to really doing well.
I am hoping Trimble will pick up speed in the next years. I hear of many architect in the Netherlands they are far more serious now with Sketchup than some years back. The crisis drives them away from Revit.
Francois

I am interested in proxy rendering systems but am unaware of BU that interacts with Maxwell. If you have something of interest considering proxies please start a new thread and expose this feature.

But I have taken a look at the BU website and its not very informative. Apart from the fact that it looks like pay by the hour for even just testrenders. We render nonstop just to see what we are doing. It looks like BU will bankrupt us in notime....or imagine an internet blackout before a deadline. All that modeling done for nothing...

I added a few images and edited the rest into a more Sketchucation forum format (smaller) here:
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=52418&p=474459#p474459

Love the comments, hope people feel inspired to render their modeling work in Sketchup. Also hope people will share high polygon models since now Maxwell and Vray can use these models in Sketchup as references without slowing down modeling.
Strangely enough high poly models do not slow down rendering itself a lot, at least not as much as you would expect.
Francois