Sketchup and production drawings.
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I don't disagree with any of you, I'm just asking how could it be done? In a way to accommodate the $100,000,000.00 building as well as a $300,000.00 remodel. The value of a scaled drawing isn't getting dimensions, but in scale. If you spend some time in the field, in environment of pouring concrete, excavating rock and soil, masonry, and hot steel, you begin to appreciate the value of paper drawings.
Its not enough to say it should be done, but to demonstrate how to do it. Contractors in my experience, are the last to embrace a new building technology.
bmike, your drawings are great, but they are still not production drawings. At least not in the manner that I am accustomed to seeing.
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I think that bmike's examples are good ones showing a mix of 2D and 3D that work together to help the user.
Construction information is a means of communicating ideas and details to many other people - they don't all want or need the same stuff - the 2D general arrangement plan tells the builder that a wall is 15'6" long and that the kitchen door is door '002' - another 'schedule then tells him more details of that door. The buyer needs the list of doors and really doesn't care where they will go - unless the project is phased and they need to be made and delivered at different times - but then the schedule/plans should also reflect that too... The 3D info is useful to give the planner/builder an insight into what order things need assembling and how they fit together... presumably these are important concepts that 2D or written specifications alone won't readily explain... -
@honoluludesktop said:
bmike, your drawings are great, but they are still not production drawings. At least not in the manner that I am accustomed to seeing.
One of those buildings (the lumber shed example) is a PE stamped set of drawings including all connection details, call outs for sheathing, piers, fasteners, strapping, etc. etc.
It has been submitted to the building department, PE stamped and calculated and engineered, and went out to bid.
The other (the full building with interiors, etc.) has just moved out of the development phase. That particular set of drawings was used for presentation to the planning commission and to solicit bids. It has been turned over to an architect very local to the project for construction documents, as it is in a very unique site and requires lots of attention from local engineers (foundation) and the architect to fit it into the town's planning / zoning.
I have a house in the works that I am doing in the same method as the above pics. It will be a full set of build documents, likely PE stamped.
If we stray from SketchUp, I use an AutoCAD overlay specifically for heavy timber work (3d modeling, primarily of joinery, etc. that lets us talk to our CNC machine) - these drawings exist as machine language, 3d model, and full 2d printed shop drawings. We include your typical plan / section / etc. of the timber elements - but also incorporate 2d representations of the 3d structure - either details or full assemblies. The craftsmen in the shop (the structure is pre-cut) have access to a PC with the same software the designers use - so they can inspect the model, clarify how things fit, etc. etc.
It would be cumbersome to do what I've done on a very large commercial project (the full TF building depicted in my examples is a small medical therapy office)- but this brings us back to the whole BIM / representation discussion too... so... its a bit of a catch 22 - too much information would bog down simple software and make it unusable for the types of things SketchUp is good at, and it would need to be tailored to individual industries as the language and methods vary from an airport project to a small custom residence. I really like that its pretty easy for me to place 3d details / sections / etc. into my sections / elevations / etc. It brings a greater awareness to non-3d thinkers of how thing fit together, turn corners, and relate to each other. This has been especially powerful for me as I work with timber structures - and its nice to show how this very visible (and sometimes dramatic) part of the building relates to people / furniture / layout / windows / etc.
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The drawing of the lumber shed wall elevation is a sheet from a set of production drawings? I have seen other drawings published here that were credited as production drawings, but like yours did not have drawing labels (A-1/10 North Wall Elevation), drawing scale (scale 1/3"=1'-0"), detail labels and notes (see 5/A-9 for wall header), revision labels etc. I guess I am used to seeing more information as part of a contract document then you are.
Btw, whats PE stamped? I can't see where you are from and am unfamiliar with that term. I am a licensed Architect in Hawaii, USA. Attached are samples of portions of a 2d production drawing of interior elevations done in the manner I am familiar with. Not pretty, but typical in my part of the world. Perhaps in a room more complicated then this one, unscaled 3d drawings could be inserted between the 2d drawings to add clarity to the set of elevations. Again the problem I would have is with revisions to the design as we are under construction (see delta markings on the drawings below), because the model's 3d view and 2d elevations are not able to parametrically update the 2d labels correctly. The sheet would easily become a mess.
I had the usual problems accommodating revisions to these drawings. In the process I accidentally loss some labels (the door ss kickplate and vent notes), etc. But, nothing out of the ordinary.
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sketchup for me has killed some of the necessity of note making... what is the point of making a note when you have the entire object built in 3D? why do I have to say "stucco" when you can actual see a stucco texture? why do I have to have a leader and say "switch" if the switch is drawn in such detail. don't get me wrong I still do notes and callouts... but not to the degree I did in AutoCad where everything was simple black and white representations of objects.
I like bMike's drawings... I dimensions differently, but they are fine drawings none the less.
we like to think that are drawings are the final say... but after the foundation is laid, even our dimensions are only secondary generalizations because the field dimension has surely changed ever so much. the point is to provide the instruction.
the whole point of our careers is to relay information to the builders and contractors in order to produce the desired and planned effect... with the economy the way it is and the amount of work it takes to build something in 3D as opposed to 2D... we need to save as much time as possible.
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@krisidious said:
sketchup for me has killed some of the necessity of note making... what is the point of making a note when you have the entire object built in 3D? why do I have to say "stucco" when you can actual see a stucco texture? why do I have to have a leader and say "switch" if the switch is drawn in such detail. don't get me wrong I still do notes and callouts... but not to the degree I did in AutoCad where everything was simple black and white representations of objects...........
.......the whole point of our careers is to relay information to the builders and contractors in order to produce the desired and planned effect... with the economy the way it is and the amount of work it takes to build something in 3D as opposed to 2D... we need to save as much time as possible.Good points, especially the first. When I went from parallel bar to digitizer, I noticed a propensity for less notes (I thought I was getting lazy, not that the media had improved:-), but it does drive home the point that you don't know until you try. I jumped to Cad without reservation, but am leery about 3d drawings in a production set. Maybe one needs just to start, and the bugs will work themselves out. Krisidious, can you post 100% sized snapshots of interior elevation production drawing (only because that is what the discussion has centered on)? I have had my share of technical failures; the building department, and contractor just loved my use of keynotes (off the the side of each sheet) in these early production drawing samples of 3/4"=1'-0" wall sections.:-(
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@unknownuser said:
Krisidious, can you post 100% sized snapshots of interior elevation production drawing
oh hell no... I'm not worthy to be posting my construction docs around you architects... I knew I shouldn't have opened my mouth...
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No way, I have seen your designs. They are fist rate. Production drawings are not the same thing, and I too am not particularly proud of the ones I do. But, consider advancing the "state of the art". Hard to do without visual examples. If you change your mind, just do snippets to illustrate examples.
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@honoluludesktop said:
The drawing of the lumber shed wall elevation is a sheet from a set of production drawings? I have seen other drawings published here that were credited as production drawings, but like yours did not have drawing labels (A-1/10 North Wall Elevation), drawing scale (scale 1/3"=1'-0"), detail labels and notes (see 5/A-9 for wall header), revision labels etc. I guess I am used to seeing more information as part of a contract document then you are.
Btw, whats PE stamped? I can't see where you are from and am unfamiliar with that term. I am a licensed Architect in Hawaii, USA.
Here are a few details.
I use 'TF-XX' to denote timber structural drawings. In addition to 10+ sheets of mine there were a few extra sheet from the engineer's work for the foundation and another area of the building that has a conventional truss roof.'Bent 1' on the other drawing I posted is referenced on the plan with section indications. A 'bent' in timber design is usually a section of the structure, often across a gable, usually in the short direction. A 'wall' or 'section' is usually used to denote a longitudinal structural assembly. I call these out on the plan, then in the title area, with scale, as required.
PE = professional engineer, in my part of the world (Northeast US).
The PE's portion of the work was similar to the details you show - 2d linework for piers, footers, rebar, etc. I was planning on doing all that work as well, in SKP, but let my PE friend just knock out the work as he is vastly more efficient at running the numbers and designing and calculating as he goes.
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bmike, your details are as good as they need get, the color makes them better. A set of plans probably cost more, but are probably worth the added expense. Guess you don't do a lot of interior elevations noting finishes, fixtures, detail references, etc. Did you do the production drawings in SU, and then present them in Layout? How do you coordinate production drawing revisions? Do you update the 3d drawings along with, say a revision to the building sections?
At my current state, once the model is used to present the design, and the job moves into production drawings, the 3d model is abandoned, and the various floor, reflected ceiling, lighting, etc plans only retain a bare amount of common information. While revisions are far better them by pencil drafting, in my case at least they are far from automatic. Do you have a better handle on this kind of drawing coordination?
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