@olishea said:

OK. You have £1500 to spend. No refurbs or second hand. You must have a full warranty on all parts.

Buy an iMac. Buy a PC. Build a PC.

Click render.

Which one will be quicker?

quicker at what?
you could go buy a mac or pc, plug it in, install the rendering software, and complete a render

-faster than-

going to buy all the individual parts, assembling them, then plugging in/installing/rendering.

that said, if the above scenario is your criteria for choosing a computer then we're just different.. different enough that i don't think either of us would change the other's mind.

.

what if the shape is something like this?

(just meaning to point out that scaling and offsetting aren't the same thing.. it only looks like the same thing on circles)
[add- and squares and equilateral triangles]

@andybot said:

since this is the corner bar, I'll keep going. You still are missing the point. I'm willing to trade the convenience of a one-stop-shop for the reduced cost of building my own boxes. I can get a much more powerful (and overclockable) computer for significantly less cost. It would be just as pointless for me to shop on the HP site as it would be for me to shop at the apple site.

i really don't think i'm missing your point.. just that i'm talking to a larger crowd. (as in -- nowhere do i think i've even hinted at macs being competitively priced against a build-ur-own box.)

or- your argument isn't necessarily mac vs. pc pricing... it's mac AND pc vs. build your own.

thing is.. if only a handful of people are using macs... then only a handful of that handful are building their own computers.. most people, by far, are buying their computers pre-built / brand names and that's what i'm talking about..

but of course you can bypass the manufacturers and build/support/maintain it yourself.. that's an argument in itself of whether or not it's worth the saving$ vs. time&know-how to do it yourself but statistics wise, i'm thinking you'll find around 95% of people prefer to pay for convenience.

@andybot said:

no, my point being there's a cost to buying apple products that is not purely justified by base line performance.

well i decided to see myself and i think just going to the apple site vs trying to navigate hp's site is worth any extra cost of the computers

it doesn't seem like you can spec out one of their all in ones as a cad machine (2.2ghz was the fastest cpu offered in those).. so the desktop which is similarly configured as my iMac is this:

it's entirely arguable what a similar display would be as the iMac but i think this one is probably similar a 27" 2560x1440.. not the cheapest and not the priciest:

i'm pretty sure this is a fair comparison, component wise - agree?

so it's ~$2300 for the pc setup vs the ~$2450 i spent on my iMac..**

maybe i'm not thrifty enough but i really don't see much of a difference there.. but maybe that's just me..
regardless, for the third time (i'll just copy/paste this time)--
"""nowhere do you see me saying apple computers are cheaper than other brands.. that's not what i'm trying to say.. what i am saying is that they're not insanely priced relatively speaking and they're actually quite competitive price wise."""

**granted, i'm comparing a refurb mac to a full price hp.. i saved around $500 off normal price with the refurb.

@andybot said:

@jeff hammond said:

do you get the point? your $1k upgrade can be a hackintosh or a computer that runs windows..

Jeff, hackintosh, really? Now you're stretching For all that I'd just install Linux

stretching what?
I'm just wondering how much a similarly spec'd hp vs mac costs.
hp is the hottest seller pc, right?
surely someone can tell me how much money I'd of saved if buying my config from them instead of apple..

the way you all keep talking, seems like not only would I have saved all my cash, hp would have given me some money along with my free computer.

@jiminy-billy-bob said:

You can't hackintosh any component you want. Only a few are compatible.

i think it's a lot more than 'a few' but building a hackintosh isn't the point anyway (nor would i personally ever build one)

the point is- if you're going to go on some tirade about how expensive macs are, at least make the proper comparisons..

like oli took a 6-core mac pro (which are base $3500), said he added a mouse, an extended warranty, a screen, and a bit more ram and presto, you're at $12,000

then compares this mac pro with its workstation grade components to his quad gaming rig claiming how macs are 5x more expensive??

this is just dumb.. sorry

nowhere do you see me saying apple computers are cheaper than other brands.. that's not what i'm trying to say.. what i am saying is that they're not insanely priced relatively speaking and they're actually quite competitive price wise.

maybe you guys don't realize it but it's pretty insulting when you sit around insinuating mac users are a bunch of rich assholes buying stupid shiny toys while anyone serious about using a computer or needing to get any real work done is obviously using the much much cheaper and much more powerful windows computer.. it's lame and it's false.

and hey, i don't have much of the problem with the insults themselves.. especially because they're not even true.. my griping is more about pointing out if you're going to make a bunch of idiotic comparisons (or lies even) or misconceptions, at least understand it for what it is (an idiotic comparison)

@andybot said:

weeell, actually...
Probably in the next month or two I'm going to rebuild my main workstation with an i7-5930k (6 core 3.5Ghz), and have been saving a wishlist on Newegg. So far my total is just over $1k (CPU, motherboard, 16GB RAM, heatsink), but I still need to add in a solid state drive. I bought a budget workstation with a 6 core AMD four years ago for just under $1k. I already have a nice 24" IPS monitor, so no need for a new display (hoping that lasts me many more years.)
It's just a lot easier to make a budget go farther when there's so much more choice in components, and I can keep re-using my tower and PSU, drives, etc.

you're talking about upgrading an existing computer.. why people think it's not possible to upgrade mac desktops is beyond me.

also, for the build your own crowd, that comparison to a mac doesn't make sense either because you can hackintosh the thing.. the same components etc that you're saving sooo much money on will run windows or osx..

not sure why it's so difficult to get the point across that a mac is an exact computer.. just like a dell or hp.. go to dell, configure the thing, then plug it in and go to town.. that's what a macintosh is..

if you want to build your own then build your own.. install osx on it if you want.. install windows on it.. doesn't matter.. but it's not an apple branded computer just like it's not a dell or asus or hp..

do you get the point? your $1k upgrade can be a hackintosh or a computer that runs windows..

@andybot said:

well, I stand corrected. When I make a bazillion dollars freelancing, I'll get some goldplated mutha effin macs.

they're not that expensive

i needed a new desktop last year.. (the mac pro being replaced was from 2006.. still runs fine.. just can't run newer OS`s so can't run newer apps.. ie- sketchup 2015 won't run on it)..
i also needed a new display.

i bought an additional 16GB ram from crucial for $140..

so for not quite $2500, i have:

i7 quad @ 3.5GHz
nvidia w/4GB vram
24 GB ram
3TB fusion drive (which is 128GB ssd combined with 3TB spinner)
and a really nice 27" display

this thing will be fine for at least 4 years.. (i mean, my old desktop was fine for 8 years so i'm pretty sure the iMac will last at least 4 years)..

so, that's $50/month if i replace after 4years.. i really don't understand the "oh, those things are soo expensive "... my internet service costs more than $50/month, you know?

how much is a comparable pc going to cost? (plug&play -- not frankengeek)

if it's $800 or something then yeah, you all may have a valid point.. if it's $2000 then big deal.
(but i know it can't be $800.. the display alone for a comparable setup is going to be near that)

edit- oh.. note the RFB at the front.. that stands for refurbished.. i always by refurbs from apple.. definitely some better deals to be had when doing that instead of walking into an apple store and buying off the shelf.

@box said:

Don't you mean D'oh instead of oops!!?

d'oh!

you're right.

@box said:

It's Ctrl on windows.

oops.. thought it was ctrl for cmmd & alt for option
thanks

@driven said:

a cluster of 1000 mac mini's doesn't take up much space,

here's what 160 racked mac minis look like:

@david_h said:

Quick question. . .It seems to me that in SU's long past. . .version 4 or so there was a push pull trick where you could just click on a shape to be PP'd and then either hold a shift key to lock the axis or and endpoint of something and it would just auto push to that point. Kinda like Follow me, but it was innate to the PushPull tool. Does anyone remember this?

Thx,

D

the only push/pull modifier key is:

Option(alt) = create new starting face.

(as seen in the lower left hand corner of the drawing window )

@michaliszissiou said:

Talking about Oli's new PC.
sorry… lol
Any advices about a new decent mouse? A decent desktop mouse, not these gamer's mice with 40 buttons, I mean.
My Logitech old (from 2006) G5 is almost dead. This USB wired with the weights you know. Loved it.

Just a moment...

(www.bhphotovideo.com)

@andybot said:

good grief! I'm talking about a single cpu box kind of like what Oli got. I'd never get a workstation like that to sit in a render farm...

I guess you'll just going on not knowing anything about PC's like I don't know anything about macs and we can call it a day

i think it was more of a difference in our interpretation of 'render farm'..
to me, spending a thousand dollars for a quad core render farm in which you'll get a render back in 2hrs as opposed to 4 hrs is a complete waste of money no matter what manufacturer we're talking about.. especially when considering that with the right software, and a few hundred bucks on a gpu, you'll get your 4hr render back in 10minutes.. and this is only going to get faster and more common.
or just use a render farm service.. still going to be cheaper & faster doing it that way.

@andybot said:

Jeff,

Yay for internet flame wars!

One point I'd like to make in response: Something that is not relative (afaik - and I've been building my PC's for many years) is that PC's are less expensive and more modifiable/ upgradable. I can't imagine for ex. trying to set up a renderfarm with Apples - just doesn't happen. That seems a pretty clear bang for the buck bottom line. It's when you start weighing in style and user experience that the calculations may start to shift.

there's conflicting info in there..

a mac is an entire computer.. just like some PCs..
if you're going to set up a renderfarm, how many of these are you going to buy?

probably none of them.. is that right?
but that's the (type of) computer you should be making the mac pro comparisons to..

if i want to set up a render farm which i drive with ,say, a macbook.. i do the same thing as you.. go buy a bunch of components and frankenstein them together for cheap(er).. the same thing you do if you're driving the farm with windows..

anyway re: render farms.. pretty sure apple is ahead of the curve on that anyway.. they realize how expensive it is to use cpu for multicore processing.. their new mac pro doesn't even have dual sockets.. you want a multicore processing, use gpu... it's way way cheaper and offers thousands of cores vs a handful of cores.. we just have to wait for the software to catch up with the hardware but it will definitely happen within the life span of this new mac pro.. in a couple more years, the idea of going out and buying a 32core computer for rendering is going to seem quite silly and a huge waste of money.

@olishea said:

Not much point me justifying it because it seems like you are only concerned about price and that's just 1% of the argument. It's like you are glazing over everything else I've written Jeff. I think you may have your Apple Goggles on; like Beer Goggles but more hipster.

sorry, it's not about apple googles. (like really.. it's not)

it's about nearly anything to be said in a mac vs pc argument, there are also valid counterpoints.. from either side.

here are some realities:

in any given field requiring personal computers, the best people are using macs and PCs.. or- there's a mac user out there that's better than most people using sketchup... there's a PC user out there that's better than most people using sketchup..

there's a mac user out there who's a more successful stock trader than most traders.. there's a pc user out there who's more successful than most traders..

and on and on..

if the stuff you're saying held truth in the big picture then this wouldn't be the case.. pc users would be better 3d modelers since mac sux and pc rulez..

i could go on with that train of thought but hopefully you get the idea.

if you had a bad experience with an apple product then yeah, i'm sure you have a sour opinion of apple.. but it should be pretty obvious by now what will happen if you go on the internets and start voicing opinions as fact regarding mac vs. pc..
like, are you actually surprised there are people in this thread saying things opposite of you? i mean surely, more crap has been typed on the internet regarding mac vs pc than any other debate out there.. we all (should) know exactly what's going to happen in this thread upon first typing your title.

@jiminy-billy-bob said:

@jeff hammond said:

i just don't think you can beat that price/config in pc land..

If you want a all-in-one aluminium computer, sure...
But if you go for a regular desktop workstation, you can pretty much half that price.

with a 5k display?

that 5k iMac is almost 'buy the display and get the computer for free'

@cadmunkey said:

A 2GB graphics card to run a 5k monitor, haha!
Jeff are you UK based, if not you might be forgiven for not realising how badly Apple UK mark up their products from US$.

nope.. u.s.

and really.. i don't want to get into some crazy spec/price argument thing..

was just a little put off seeing 'macs cost 5x more than their pc counterparts'... that's either some fud, misinformed buyer, buyer justification_er, or something along these lines.

@olishea said:

Sorry for being so anti Apple, but if it makes you happy Jeff I'm still using my iMac for browsing the net in my bedroom! I do get the appeal but the price is ludicrous and I've spent way too many hours sat at the genius bar or waiting for my computers to be fixed.

it's not about being anti-apple.. i'm just saying you can't price compare a mac pro to your new pc.. compare it to a similarly spec'd hp/dell workstation (xeon, dual firepros, pci-e flash, 1866ram, etc) and you'll see the mac is very competitively priced..

the mac with similar specs as your new machine is an iMac..

so your specs with a 5k display:

i just don't think you can beat that price/config in pc land..

i'm not trying to say macs are cheap.. just that they aren't crazy out-of-proportion priced when comparing to similar spec'd PCs.

@olishea said:

I do not see any sense in buying Apple.

you have to do spec for spec comparisons with the mac pro next to a pc workstation.. you might be surprise when the mac is actually a bit cheaper.