Who owns the SKP?
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Over the last few years I have done many drawings for a manufacturer.
They have just taken on a Cad draftsman and have asked me for the SKPS so he can convert them to DWG.I don't feel I have intellectual property rights like, say, an archictect. But do I have any?
Most of the jobs were either from the clients mud maps or measurements and photos I took of prototypes.(See samples). A lot of the work required that I understood the process the drawing was meant to explain.The crucial question is if I have some rights I could make a case for some compensation.
(The jobs were always delivered as vector PDFs, so I suppose they could DXF them anyway).
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That would depend on the contract you have. If you have one?
Since you used a process to abstract the 3D model I would be of the opinion that you need to be compensated if they require the CAD files.
It seems like you allowed them to use the 2D renderings but the 3D element/s is part of your process to generate the 2D renderings.
The have ample info in the 2D files to reproduce the 3D equivalent. If they want the 3D files then that is a whole new discussion.
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@rich o brien said:
That would depend on the contract you have. If you have one?
No contract, just the usual "Need it yesterday"
@rich o brien said:
Since you used a process to abstract the 3D model I would be of the opinion that you need to be compensated if they require the CAD files.
Not sure what you mean by 'abstract' and 'process'
@rich o brien said:
It seems like you allowed them to use the 2D renderings but the 3D element/s is part of your process to generate the 2D renderings.
If I understand you, it is common practice to give clients either a PDF or hard copies. If I were producing original work for them, then intellectual property rights would be applicable.
But apart from my 'artistic' style, the works are derived from the clients information. And therefore not original.@rich o brien said:
The have ample info in the 2D files to reproduce the 3D equivalent. If they want the 3D files then that is a whole new discussion.
I don't think they want 3D particularly, just the 2D parts of my SKPS to make alterations etc.
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@baz said:
Not sure what you mean by 'abstract' and 'process'
I mean that you are given technical info and from that you use a CAD app to convert it into 3D info. They don't have a process to do something similar so the use your service to get the result they need.
@baz said:
If I understand you, it is common practice to give clients either a PDF or hard copies. If I were producing original work for them, then intellectual property rights would be applicable.
But apart from my 'artistic' style, the works are derived from the clients information. And therefore not original.I agree. You are not designing an original work. You are using a process to output technical drawings. I would say you don't have rights to the design but you have rights to how you get there.
@baz said:
I don't think they want 3D particularly, just the 2D parts of my SKPS to make alterations etc.
So they want the 2D element of the 3D object? Since you've no real contract other than 'do this for me?' it would seem it comes down to how you feel about getting replaced and whether or not you want to share your process with your replacement.
Also you don't want to sour your relationship as getting replaced doesn't mean no more future work.
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If you think you will still have a shot at future work with them, provide them with the .dwg equivalent of the .pdf they already paid for. (If that is what they only want)
If they insist on the .skp then put a number on it, and explain as Rich said, that is part of your process.
I think if they push back on that, then it is likely there would not be any future work anyway. (Nothing lost)
C
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Ok, if handing over the 3d model at some point was discussed before the project began then I'd say of course hand it over if your prices included that eventuality within them.
But I do get asked for original files all the time, and I'm afraid 99% of the time I say no purely as it's not their property to have, it is yours. If they want your models, discuss a price with them, otherwise stick to dishing out 2d PDFs. -
I'm getting it.
It's about the 'Process'.
Never thought about it this way before.
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In my opinion with the info you have given, the .skp files are yours, and they have (apparently) paid you for the vector PDFs. Anything further they want is negotiable.
The actual .skp files are the most valuable part of the equation and have been created by you, unless otherwise stated on a contract they are your own work product and as such yours to sell or destroy as you see fit.
Give them copies of anything you have given them before, but if they want something else, a different angle etc... charge them for it. -
When I get a request like this, and it is a company I hope to work for in the future, I often release the SKP.
But, I do some mods to a new version before I release it.
I explode everything, and I mean everything. With an object retaining the layer it's group/component version was on when exploded, all the layer and scenes still work as expected.
Then, I purge all components and unused materials.
Then, I modify my style(s) so that the select color matches the default blue that SU ships with and then I change the locked color to match the select color. Figure this is a nice line of last defense in minimizing unpaid for functionality while still doing everything the client asked for. It's not your fault if the cad guy can't figure our how to get anything out of the model.
So, in the end, the client gets the model and you are the good guy. And no one can give you grief about your exploded mess because that is maybe just how you do things. And you can charge them money when their cad monkey can't figure out how to do what they want with your model. Win, win win.
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Could you propose to setup and export the files to 2D DWG on their behalf, for a fee?
Saves them a job, protects your models and generates some income.
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@baz said:
I'm getting it.
It's about the 'Process'.
Never thought about it this way before.
Yes, you are correct. There is nothing to have stopped you from already having archived or deleted these models by now, depending on how long ago they were created. It's up to you what your own internal office practice is with the files you have created.
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Let me add a little different perspective because I am in a very similar situation.
I draw 3D models for a company. IMO, the skp files are theirs. Here is why I feel that way. Would I be drawing the equipment if it was not for them? Is the equipment design mine or do they give me the design and I just turn it into a 3D version therefore the intellectual property, and thus the skp files, are theirs. If I, or you, we're doing the work "on the job" would the files be theirs? Again, IMHO, they pay me/you to create the files for them, therefore the own the files.
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Thanks for all your thoughtful replies.
I feel clear now that I own the SKPS.
I will attempt to negotiate a fee with the client.
Although how much is a puzzle. Some percentage of the original cost I suppose.@Dave: I think you are outvoted here. The point being the 'Process' belongs to me/you. The client is paying for the output only. Of course if you were on salary, with all the benefits that go with that, different story,
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@baz said:
@Dave: I think you are outvoted here. The point being the 'Process' belongs to me/you. The client is paying for the output only. Of course if you were on salary, with all the benefits that go with that, different story,
Yes, I see I am outvoted........that is the arrangement I have with the people I do my drawing for. No contract, just the way we work. I am a retired guy and the hours are not very many. Not only have I shared the skp's with them but they have shared with another company (not a competitor nor in the same area). But I fully respect the other opinions.
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The fact is that with a 2D they can't do much. It's very useful for some stuff but... come on. It's flat!
With 3D they can:
- Output 2D;
- 3D Print;
- Render Stills and commercials;
- Render animations;
- Show to their clients;
- Insert on 3rd party models;
- And so on...
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@jql said:
The fact is that with a 2D they can't do much. It's very useful for some stuff but... come on. It's flat!
With 3D they can:
- Output 2D;
- 3D Print;
- Render Stills and commercials;
- Render animations;
- Show to their clients;
- Insert on 3rd party models;
- And so on...
Interesting... I wonder whether there is any way to make my files 'flat' before passing them over. Plugin/Flatery perhaps?
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Hi - this is an interesting topic and obviously we all have made our experiences
the question always is: what has the customer ordered and for what does he pay?
For me it is usually the pure image - either rendered visualizations or view plans or ground plans etc... This is the usually mandated range of services for me and that is exactly what I deliver.
For render tasks, as a service, I mostly prepare a proof (a simple version created with little effort) to verify the look, the materials, the light, the deco etc. This proof I send to the customer as a pdf so that he can give me a go or can express his wishes or changes - these he must always give me in written form.So nothing else has been agreed, for all cases applies: the used software and the created file is and remains the instrument only, with which you have created the visualization which is the ordered product usually. The customer who ordered a painted portrait does not get the used brushes. The one who ordered firewood does not get the ax or saw of the forest worker...
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I must admit my circumstances are probably different than most of you. The company I do the work for pas for Sketchup ad the laptop I use for the work. Therefore, I feel that they are paying me for my time and the ability to use the software and as such everything belongs to them. If I were an independent contractor doing work for others as well, I would probably feel differently. Believe me, I fully understand how you all feel and can support you 100%.
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@ntxdave said:
Therefore, I feel that they are paying me for my time and the ability to use the software and as such everything belongs to them.
That makes no sense... they pay you for a service and you provide it... that's it. Nothing else belongs to them.
In fact "All your base are belong to us!"
Are you working on their computer? Did you use the money they pay you to buy a computer? Will you give back your computer to them?
Have you been learning something while working for them? They payed you to provide a service and that service requires a specific knowledge in order to be created. By that train of thought, it's only fair that you give them the knowledge back and empty your head after the service has been provided.
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@jql said:
Are you working on their computer? Did you use the money they pay you to buy a computer? Will you give back your computer to them?
As I said, yes the computer is theirs (they bought it) and they pay for the software. As I said, I think my situation is rather unique and I fully understand/appreciate the position you and others are taking.
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