Google is Listening!
-
After reading the last posts i'm feeling like the bad guy in here...
Everyone's talking about what a great plataform for plugins Sketchup is, but a great plataform that can't display shadows properly, that don't have a something like a plugin manager, that has a API that doesn't seem to give enough acess to, for example, textures, or doesn't even support x64 or multicore technology, even if just to others benefict from? even after guys like Edwin Catmull saying that the future is in using parallel processing (and he's just the guy that was in the original team from Pixar(now president) and ILM and invented the catmull-clarck subdivision, but what does he know right?) or seeing others using this to enhance subdivision surface modeling? Sorry, but i still can't see this as a great platform...it's good, but not that good.
But this is useless, arguing now won't change nothing because more than enough users are happy with this way of "evolving", and in 2 years when SK9 is realeased it still won't have multicore/x64/use the current technology like opencl/better texture or modeling tools, but it will probably let us pushpull more than one face or doing something like subdivision 1 level (plus a lot more for google earth) and most will be more than happy with that, just like in 6, 7 and now 8.
I try to discussed this in a open and frank way with the "head of the SK team", with reviews and opinions and such, but he dodge all the "bullets", and gave us "pearls" like UV spherical beeing unnecessary or too complex or trying to sell COLLADA format as a more Standart format than obj (and i'm all in favor for collada but it's undeniable that obj it's widelly used), and still very few care, like everyone's afraid to say bad about the release. Before the end of this topic end, most probably the conclusion is that this was a great realease...
And for me SK it's like an hammer, i just used to do what an hammer is supost to do, the problem is that it's a wood hammer, like my grand parents had, that's heavy, making me more tire, that start's to hurt in time with all the wood splits, and sometimes the heavy metal head falls off making me trying to figure out ways to put it back. Now in the XXI century i just wanted a new hammer for doing the exact same things, but in aluminium to be lighter, with rubber to grab more comfortably, and with a smaller a more precise head. Instead i got my old hammer back, but with ductape and painted in other colour...I think right now this is the best analogy tha can be done between sketchup and a hammer.
I'm on old Sketchup user, but i think i'm no longer a user of the new Sketchup google wants, even if my goal is the same as ever and remember that SK was doing pretty well before google earth.
-
@thomthom said:
Like Firefox's plugin manager.
Like Debian/Ubuntu's package manager.I haven't used those before, but I think I know what you are getting at and think it's a great suggestion - especially if (as you say) you could get notifications when a new version of a plugin becomes available.
The only problem I can see is getting all developers to agree to work through a centralised plugin repository.
-
@hieru said:
The only problem I can see is getting all developers to agree to work through a centralised plugin repository.
Don't think that would be the problem - problem is getting such a repository in the first place...
-
......Yep that as well (probably more important come to think of it).
-
@unknownuser said:
And for me SK it's like an hammer, i just used to do what an hammer is supost to do, the problem is that it's a wood hammer, like my grand parents had, that's heavy, making me more tire, that start's to hurt in time with all the wood splits, and sometimes the heavy metal head falls off making me trying to figure out ways to put it back. Now in the XXI century i just wanted a new hammer for doing the exact same things, but in aluminium to be lighter, with rubber to grab more comfortably, and with a smaller a more precise head. Instead i got my old hammer back, but with ductape and painted in other colour...I think right now this is the best analogy tha can be done between sketchup and a hammer.
you don't use hammers much, do you?
aluminum hammer?
smaller, more precise head? maybe - for finish work. but if i'm framing, i'd want a heavier, well balanced head.even within 'hammers' there are specific hammers for the job.
framing hammer, finish hammer, roofing hammer, etc. etc.but a hammer with an aluminum handle - no thanks. my elbows and hands hurt just thinking about it.
i'll take (and use) one of these:
and a host of others with wood handles.
no duct tape required.
hammer is a simple tool designed to do simple tasks.
but with the right simple tools, folks can build amazing things. -
bmike
i was trying to make a point...you know...an analogy between and old hammer and a new one related to sketchup? you get that right?basicly trying to compare a (really) old hammer with a new one like the ones in the picture. You still use old ones like that in the picture too
?but sorry about my mistake in the hammer analogy
-
I didn't think it was the hammer, but what you are lucky enough to hit with it(.
-
@unknownuser said:
bmike
i was trying to make a point...you know...an analogy between and old hammer and a new one related to sketchup? you get that right?basicly trying to compare a (really) old hammer with a new one like the ones in the picture. You still use old ones like that in the picture too
?but sorry about my mistake in the hammer analogy
no, i get it.
i still use tools that were designed 100+ years ago and have changed very little (hand plane, hammer, saw, etc.)
i may use modern versions, or classic tools, depending on what feels right and what fits the task.i don't see much of the criticism leveled at sketchup here as fair.
use the tool where it works, but don't be upset at your hammer because it makes a poor screw driver.
and if you find yourself driving screws, and the screwdriver plugin for your hammer just isn't cutting it, it might be time to invest in a new addition to the tool box. my hammer doesn't seem to mind when i pick up the pliers or the saw to get the job done.that said, there is certainly room for continued refinement and improvement.
the question is - what does google (who makes the tool) view as important...?
and if the sketchUcation 'community' feels otherwise - how to lobby effectively for change?
and, if the hammer doesn't grow a sliding screw driver tip and a folding saw with the next release - what is the plan for moving on? -
If we all got what we wanted, Sketchup would be this:
not very practical.
-
I feel the need to jump in and say that I completely understand DaCad.
SU is great, but it seem to be frozen in time (early 2000's).This thread got me thinking, and I DO agree to the idea of SU as a Platform.
I think IT IS the right way to go - every will tailor SU to his liking.That said, I think that as a Platform SU falls short.
it has no 64Bit (and that IS AN ISSUE if it is a platform. saying "get a studio render engine" is the exact opposite that a one-stop platform!), and Poly-count wise, it pretty much suck.I don't think that Google need to develop any more tools. I would Happily pay for good plugins by the great developers around here.
But I sure ain't going to pay 100's of dollars for a such a release.
Come'on! a Toolbar bugfix as a major feature?!Now, don't take that as a rant.
I really appreciate the fact the John spends his time reading and answering us.
(though i feel some important issues are being dodged.)
I'd really like to see SU get Better. it could be a Super-Tool.
not just for the free swarm of Google-Earth builder. it could be Super Pro. -
How about like this?
No matter where or when this hammer strikes it will still be as solid as the day it was made...plus a few dents and scratches of course
-
@emage said:
Now, don't take that as a rant.
I really appreciate the fact the John spends his time reading and answering us.
(though i feel some important issues are being dodged.)What issue do you feel I dodged?
john
. -
@marian said:
How about like this?
Nah!
One like THIS!
The Kango 900S 11kg Demolition Hammer! Note the word Demolition! (with the capital D!)
-
@emage said:
I
That said, I think that as a Platform SU falls short.
it has no 64BitYes, as we keep on hearing. But no one seems to be taking note from Mr SketchUp himself, that there is little if any difference using 64 bit.
-
@tfdesign said:
@emage said:
I
That said, I think that as a Platform SU falls short.
it has no 64BitYes, as we keep on hearing. But no one seems to be taking note from Mr SketchUp himself, that there is little if any difference using 64 bit.
Have you ever tried to render (SU+VRay) larger than 3000px? or use a high quality Arroway Textures with it?
Come on. the fact that you're not using it - doesn't mean that others can't benefit from it. as far as i care, it can be a "PRO" feature.
seems to me people are ignoring the fact that this has been requested repeatedly over the year. I'm yet to be convinced that I'm an idiot asking for something that won't do him any good.
If it's a platform - than it should host plugins nicely. not hold them back on like it's 1999 all over again. -
@jbacus said:
@emage said:
Now, don't take that as a rant.
I really appreciate the fact the John spends his time reading and answering us.
(though i feel some important issues are being dodged.)What issue do you feel I dodged?
john
.Hi, john,
Again, I'd like to express my appreciation for the time and effort you invest in this dialog.
Maybe if was the other way around (first dialog and then a release) Version 8 wouldn't be bashed so hardly.The main issue i feel neglected is simple - PERFORMANCE.
Be it x64, be it Multi-Core, be it Moonlight and Fairy Dust - I don't really care.
But a 3D package that cost 500$ a seat, and can't handle a medium project - IS a problem.
Any situation in which, I as a pro paying customer, find my Workstation handicapped by a software - That's a problem.
I Expect a software to utilize whatever Horsepower I give it - be it for Rendering / Manipulating large models / Plugging Trees(!) in my model!
maybe that should be a "PRO" version feature. Sure as hell not anybody need it. BUT SOME OF US DO!
and what gets me the most is that SU can be a Full size player in the Arch-Viz Business.
It is so close (Workflow / Interface / Ease of use) ... and yet years behind (Performance).
as much as I LOVE SU, I can't justify an upgrade to V8. -
@emage said:
Have you ever tried to render (SU+VRay) larger than 3000px? or use a high quality Arroway Textures with it?
Come on. the fact that you're not using itYes, you are right, I don't render with SU as I don't really have a need to render, but John also said earlier elsewhere that not having SU as a 64bit application doesn't mean that rendering plugins such as Lightup (I'm guessing names here) have to follow suit. Many apparently do use 64bit to render.
I would also imagine that decent rendering add-ins would be rather expensive (again I'm only guessing), but I would imagine that this would push the price range of SketchUp out of the range of many users. If I need to do any rendering, I tend to use an external renderer anyway. Modo is very good. I tend to use Cheetah3D, because it is very good value for money, as well as being easy to use (shameless C3D plug!).
Tom
-
@tfdesign said:
... I would imagine that this would push the price range of SketchUp out of the range of many users. If I need to do any rendering, I tend to use an external renderer anyway.
TomPrice wise - I am talking about Pro Users. Not the free Google-Earth Plugin.
My Render Engine of choice is Maxwell Render, which has a wonderful Studio (that is capable to handle a lot of Geometry).
But one of the Firms I work with has poorly (in my opinion) invested in VRay for SU, and they insist of using it to justify the purchase.
A lot of money for a Pro Render, with proven abilities (inside 3DSMax/Maya/C4D) - yet very much handicapped by Sketchup Environment.
Every single deadline with it, I find myself Banging my head against Technical issues and workaround (Rendering to VRImage) instead of Design and Architecture.And it's not just limited to rendering.
What if tomorrow will bring a new Ecological plugin, or an amazing high-poly tools for Sketchup,
All with heavy calculations and whatever? What kind of platform will they find? a very limited one.
And btw, for me this is a bit of trying to hold the stick on both ends -
You can't push "SU as a Platform" and "Use External Applications" at the same time.
If I need to invest in Modo, I'll (sadly) do it to replace SU and minimize/optimize my workflow, not to add another tool. -
@emage said:
The main issue i feel neglected is simple - PERFORMANCE.
I don't know what application you're comparing SketchUp against in performance terms (you haven't said), but it abundantly clear that increases in rendering performance in SketchUp are helpful to all users. Here's what I've said previously on the subject on these forums:
@jbacus said:
I want you all to understand that the dev team understands clearly how important general performance is in SketchUp. We work on it with every single release, though sometimes in ways that aren't entirely obvious from the outside. SU7.1 included an entirely new rendering pipeline that was in development for almost two years. In SU8, we reworked the way that raster image data is handled internally. We'll work on something else in the next release.
And while we certainly have a responsibility to increase performance in SketchUp at every opportunity, you must also do your part by managing the complexity of your model to fit within the 'polygon budget' of your particular system.
In game-theoretic terms, SketchUp's modeling performance is a classic "arms race". Every time we make SketchUp faster, you start making bigger models. Then we have to make SketchUp faster again, and then you start making even bigger models. There is no logical conclusion to this game where performance is infinite and you can make an infinitely large model. Eventually performance will plateau, and you'll have to learn how to work with the system as it stands.
I don't know what you would consider a "medium project", and I don't know what your hardware configuration is either. But I can tell you that we have and always will continue to improve SketchUp's performance with every release. You have to take some responsibility as well, though, and manage your model to work within the constraints of the system.
john
. -
@jbacus said:
I don't know what application you're comparing SketchUp against in performance terms
.I've Been a Maya user for about 6 Years until I enrolled into Architecture Studies.
For the past 5 Years, I've been getting away with mostly SU, but also a mix of Rhino (Not relevant - Apples & Oranges), C4D and Maya. I've been hearing great things about Modo, but haven't got a chance to actually use it more than a few minutes at a time.
I want to make clear that I'm not looking forward to Mudbox / ZBrush Billions of Polys.
But when a big % of the Component in 3DWarehouse (a big feature of SU) are like kryptonite to SU, or when trying to load Evermotion props...@jbacus said:
I don't know what you would consider a "medium project", and I don't know what your hardware configuration is either.
.It's holiday here, so I won't be in the office until monday, So I'll get back to you with numbers as to poly count.
Since it's an ongoing competition, i can't yet publish any photos, but i'll see what i can do.
My Workstation is an Win7 / i7/ 12Gb / GTX470 Machine. Build to crunch number and to render fast.
at the Office we also have an older (Yet Faster) 8-Core MacPro.@jbacus said:
In game-theoretic terms, SketchUp's modeling performance is a classic "arms race". Every time we make SketchUp faster, you start making bigger models. Then we have to make SketchUp faster again, and then you start making even bigger models. There is no logical conclusion to this game where performance is infinite and you can make an infinitely large model. Eventually performance will plateau, and you'll have to learn how to work with the system as it stands.
@jbacus said:
You have to take some responsibility as well, though, and manage your model to work within the constraints of the system.
john
.Those two comments really amuses me.
I Had a University project which we ported to Unity3D for real-time walk-through for an exhibition.
it was a whole Blvd, with over 30 Historical Building and surroundings.
SU couldn't handle the Building themselves, yet in Unity we got REAL-TIME geometry, Trees (Not Low Poly/2D) and Improved Textures (Bump/Spec which SU can't handle) at high resolution and good FPS (60+).
any modern Game Engine can Handle a Huge amount of data today, even the free ones (UDK, Unity3D).
Most 3D Packages can handle much more geometry than SU, and that's a fact.Yes, improvements have been made on version 7 & 8 - but if you take into account the increase in computer power from 2007 (SU6) until today you'd see that SU doesn't begin to utilize what is a fairly reasonable workstation TODAY.
I Realize that Google doesn't want to do heavy work on SU core.
I want to emphasize that in my humble opinion - Doing so would take SU from a "Google Earth Plugin" to worthy "Pro Arh Viz Tool", even a competitor to 3DSMax and others, thanks to it's ease of use and wide spread popularity among Architects.
Advertisement