Love - a path to follow
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This thread is intended as a continuation of a dialog from a 'Religion anyone?' thread. It is not appropriate to hijack a thread and is not wise to throw pearls into a mud.
@plot-paris said:
nomer, I have to agree with you. this thread is responsible for me spending hours of my time in the office reading instead of modelling (may that be the reason why I have been fired yesterday?
). it is a great discussion with faszinating points of view and (sometimes almost too) enthusiastic posts.Tomasz, I like your idea of love being an elemental force in our world (I understand you talking about the love that makes a parent stand between the danger and his children to protect them rather than the love that makes two young people do naughty things on a sofa).
but instantly I have two questions, that I always have been uncomfortable with and that could break lose some new discussions:-
my religion teacher once tried us to engage in a debate about love and stated the point, that love is absolutely selfish and that we only treat people arround us with love to recieve the same treatment in return - therefore: selfish!
(I allways refused this idea, because it is depressing. but I think to a certain extend he is right. on the other hand, when love goes beyond life, when someone is willing to take up punishment or pain to protect others (the "parents protecting children" thing again)... doesn't that go beyond selfish love?) -
second question: if we assume, that love is the force that keeps our world together - doesn't that mean that, like with all forces of nature, there has to be a balance? like the fact that to cool a fridge down inside, you will produce a lot of heat. so if you create love at some point, does there have to be a balance somehwere, a creation of the opposite (hate, despair, frustration)?
one fact that supports this view is, that quite often love shows it's strongest form in difficult times. your love to someone will be most palpable (and even hurt you, create pain) when you are away from him/her.
or in times of great evil, like the third reich in Germany, such great examples of selfless love can be found (like German people, hiding jewish families, risking their own lifes to protect others).
and a last thought. can you describe love as a drug? because I am really high, when I am in love. when I break up with someone after a serious relationship, I suffer for a serious withdrawal syndrom for some time...
I know, very dark thoughts. and Tomasz, I still agree that love is the right way to go! but nevertheless these are question we should answer
@rickw said:
Selfish "love" isn't really love. So, what are the characteristics of true love? Love is patient and kind, not jealous or boastful or proud. Love is not self-seeking, nor easily angered, and it does not keep a record of wrongs. Love embraces truth. Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. We sometimes put our trust in people, governments, economies, jobs, relationships, investments, speculations, and all kinds of things that will eventually let us down. But love remains. There may be pain in unrequited love, or love lost, but true love perseveres, conquering the selfish false-love that would become angry, bitter, or despondent.
(my paraphrase of the Apostle Paul's description of love)
@plot-paris said:
well, I am afraid to really answer my own question of whether love is selfish or not we have to refer to the dear old greeks and their different variations of love (earlier mentioned Eros, Agape, Filia, Caritas...).
but another question (that I already answered for myself) jumps to my mind:
Do you distinguish between "I love you" and "I am in love with you"?
(I do. if I have a crush on someone, it is mostly defined by desire and perhaps curiosity. when things go further and you are like on drugs when with the other and absolutely devastated when without... thats what I call "being in love with someone.
finally, after months of a relationship, when you deeply know the other and when the first wave of "being in love" is not as strong and confusing anymore, you will know, if you love the other.
during a long relationship "being in love" may subside at some point and come back at another. but love is the deep feeling that is always there) -
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Plot, your distinction of 'being in love' and 'love' makes sense. This is how the love evolves.
We have to be aware that our love is a poor reflection of the true Love. The more open our heart is the better it reflects.In my view the Love is not a force of a nature nor it needs a balance.
Love is a medium that allows everything to live, grow and exist. Love has given life to all Creation - spirits, people and animals. We all have free, undisturbed will and a lesson to learn.
We have to learn that there can be a hatred and all evil if you deny to love. This is a balance of goodness in our World. Even spirits has to learn it. The father of Lie has to learn it as well.What 'Lie' I am witting about? "The Father doesn't love you. He has something to hide from you. He doesn't want you to be equal to him."
So now we are all 'equal' to him. We know now hate and love, truth and lies. The hate and lie is only a denial of love. In reality it can only exist if the Creation allows it. There is a full circle the Creation is making to understand that Love is not selfish. It is the path we need to follow.
The love when it crated us, it knew we would stray. We had to try our own path. Try the path of the lie.
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Your interpretation of love is broad, seems like you have bundled up trust, devotion, faith, nurture, kindness, truthfulness, etc all into one word. I get it and understand you ... kinda.
Now how does this love you mention relate to your religion? (as it was mentioned first in the religion thread)
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Some attributes of LOVE (combining "Eros, Agape, Filia, Caritas…"):
“Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth.” (1 Cor. 13:4-6)
SUPREME LOVE:
“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:12-13)Cornel
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@solo said:
Now how does this love you mention relate to your religion?
I am a Christian - it means I believe in Christ, who, in turn, claimed to be a Son of God.
This is the faith I have grown in. This is a faith I have questioned in my youth, finally to recognize it as my own, not only as passed on message. The essence of his teaching was Love. In fact, as a scripture says, he has called his father 'a God' just once. On a cross. For him the love and his father was same. My personal experience of love gives me great confidence that I have a lot to learn from Him. This is in general how the love relates to my religion. Why do you ask?p.s. Plot have you been really fired?!! It is sad.
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My point is, that even if the Christ was a Jew, his vision of God has been completely rejected by those who had governed a Jewish vision of the World. I am afraid that Christianity over two thousand years has been overgrown by so many traditional rituals and additions, that makes original, very simple and clear message of Love, unrecognizable in our times.
By getting to the root of Christianity, by getting closer to understanding our Father, we can not only find a way to unity of a Christians, but who knows, maybe even to an acceptance of the 'sect' by Jews.
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“…a way to unity of a Christians…”?!
Behold A WAY!:“For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.” (2 Corintians 5:14-15)
Cornel
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What is really helping me to get closer to understanding what Love is the fact that in reality we can only pass on love, but we are not a true source of it.
I like very much a scene from first part of the "Matrix". Morpheus asks Neo in his first training:
'Do you think, it is an air you are breathing?'I would ask: 'Do you think it is your love you give to others**?**'
Realizing of this principle leads to easier recognition of Father's voice in our souls.
It is something extraordinary when developed and cherished in a marriage, where two people can discover what does really mean 'to be one body'. -
Tomasz,
Re. your question: "I would ask: 'Do you think it is your love you give to others?"...my answer is NO.
It is Christ love! See one of apostle Paul explicative verse!:“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” (Galatians 2:20)
Cornel
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To help, those interested, to understand what in my opinion Love is I post following short film.
I have found it among several videos on TED Karren's Armstrong blog.
This beautiful video has won first prize at Tropfest NY. Directed by Jason van Genderen, it was shot entirely on a cell phone with a budget of $57.Love is the power in your heart which tells you to do good, to help, to act with empathy.
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Thanks Tomasz
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I resurrected this old thread, because of a last part of Zeitgeist__Addendum film sent by Oalexis in Money as debt thread.
Thank you! Although I don't agree on everything what is presented in the film, I find most of the stuff very true.@unknownuser said:
My point is, that even if the Christ was a Jew, his vision of God has been completely rejected by those who had governed a Jewish vision of the World. I am afraid that Christianity over two thousand years has been overgrown by so many traditional rituals and additions, that makes original, very simple and clear message of Love, unrecognizable in our times.
By getting to the root of Christianity, by getting closer to understanding our Father, we can not only find a way to unity of a Christians, but who knows, maybe even to an acceptance of the 'sect' by Jews.
I will say more ... this is a way to OUR unity. Mine and yours. It starts within each of us. The Real Change can happen only from Inside us. Noone will change people from outside. Such a change would not be true and would not sustain long. Your desire to meet the love is what will change you internally.
... if you decide to go that path.
Tomasz
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I have found today a nice documentary that talks about experience of Love at the edge of this life:
"Can we survive death ? What is the nature of our consciousness ?
'Beyond Our Sight' is an independent documentary that talks
about near-death experiences, human consciousness,
and the possibility of communication with other dimensions." (52')https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpSuO8DtiMM
I find it appropriate to share it in this very old thread, as the experience those people have had is very close to mine, although mine didn't happen in dramatic circumstances.
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What is your experience in these matters Tomasz?
To talk about the documentary and is also to talk about what people choose to believe and how do they act upon what they believe.
What I have to say about the documentary is that I have no doubt that what happened to these peopleis true, but I won't act on that belief.
I will keep, as before, acting on my belief as I think most people do or should do, and the only rule that should guide our belief is truth and respect for the truth of others.
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@jql said:
What is your experience in these matters Tomasz?
I have written about my experience here:
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=179%26amp;t=12323%26amp;p=93314#p93314It matches very close what this man talks about Light and Love and a feeling of being united with everything4:41.
For me it was the strongest experience I have every had. I want to live more and more with this Love in my heart everyday.
You are right we all have to build on what rings to us true and is based on what we have learned so far.
I expect that my experience can be shared, because it was happening in early days of Christianity and it is sill happening in so called Charismatic Renewal in several Churches. Receiving Holy Spirit usually happens through putting hands on someone's head and asking for that gift.
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I think the religious view is coming to the for here too. Love is not a single plane, it is certainly NOT the remit of others to decide what sort I have for those around me. To state that the love one person has for another is the love of a deity is perverse as it is attempting to proscribe the love I have for any other human being I care for.
Perhaps remove the religious doctrine.
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I'm not religious myself, I don't believe in a God that is described by someone else, but I know it exists, everywhere, for many people, in different shapes. As Humans there is definetelly something that binds us together and is greater than us all: Love and Truth, driven by Consciousness and Respect is what I believe. But I know God is the ultimate truth for many.
The only thing I don't agree with the view of god is that it is, many times a view that is imposed by routines, doctrines and not consciousness of the self and of the surrounding universe. It's usually religion as in blindness not in conciousness.
Unfortunatelly a religious God is used by some people (too many) as the thing that splits us and not what binds us, but you cannot speak of a supreme Love, Truth, Consciousness and Respect without speaking of God as the concept is probably the same.
Again I say, I don't like religion, but I have no doubt that God exists though I profoundly dislike calling it God as the word carries too many perverse meanings and dogmas.
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I seriously distrust those who try to proscribe how my feelings are formulated. I have no doubt god exists in the minds of religious followers but absolutely refute the right of anyone to state that the love of one person for another comes from a deity.
I am constantly being told that everyone is the child of a deity and without religious faith I cannot have morals etc.
Quite frankly sick of the whole lot of it. -
There are 3000 gods in our society.
If you're an atheist then you believe in only one less god than someone who believes in one god. Everyone is a an atheist in some fashion.
Nothing wrong with having or, not having, a faith/belief system. Whatever gives you warmth and fulfillment is sustenance for living.
Doing the right thing is what matters.
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@rich o brien said:
Doing the right thing is what matters.
But it is your belief system that drives what is the right thing.
So, before all else, it's what controls belief that drives everything.
Ultimatelly it's your consciousness that allows to create what your belief.
How your consciousness is built, is born, or emerges is really what matters.
What Religion tries to control is how your consciousness is shaped and that's what I don't trust in it.
Religion is a major block to freedom of consciousness or to a true consciousness, as religion is a collectivelly built instrument that is controled by many people, not usually yourself.
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