Sketchup 64 bit?
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Wow, this got pretty passionate. Jason, I thought you were in the architecture end of business, but I just noticed the illustration/cartoons aspect. What are you specifically looking for? For me, the BIM use is already there and just needs the ability to quantify graphically. Is it speed? We all want that as well.
I also think you are not giving enough credit for what John has done with SU to date. Not that I have any right to direct your opinion, but there are many aspects of where we are now that John has certainly had a major influence.
The squeaky wheel gets the oil, but being more constructive about it will go miles.
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@unknownuser said:
The squeaky wheel gets the oil, but being more constructive about it will go miles.
one would hope.. i think there have been some very constructive conversations over the years (involving the devs) with regards to sketchup development.. (personally- material browser, dynamic component improvements, printing, alphabetizing menus, plugin organization, toolbar issues, thumbnails)
i mean, things that will benefit ALL users.. so i'd have these discussions (either here, at the google forums, or via email).. and i mean constructive engagements- not 'give me this!'..
then the next SU version comes out and ... nothing.. zip nada zilch..
ok.. so that's understandable or whatever.. so i think at first..
but, su isn't the only app i use and i do engage in conversations (trying to be clear about reasoning, showing examples, making vids for them etc) with other developers and i'll often (and i mean often) see those changes implemented either immediately through a beta release or in the next official release..we are in fact the users.. and we have many many stupid ideas for the apps.. but sometimes, we have good ideas and can get these ideas through to the devs in a reasonable and constructive manner.. and the devs will understand the need and agree it should be implemented.. and they actually do it..
this process simply does not exist with sketchup.. i'm sorry but it doesn't.. and to make matters worse, they try to make it seems like it does via Q&As or polls for most desired features etc.. but none of that stuff ever happens (and if it does.. meaning a user makes a direct request which is then implemented.. it is very very rare)
[edit] and in jason's case ..(i'm not defending his outbursts or whatever.. just understanding his position is all).. it's not like he just comes in here guns ablazing.. he started off calmly and constructive enough a few years ago.. and it's getting him nowhere.. i've been there.. i get it.
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Jeff hit the nail on the head -- I participated fully in good faith.
Bacus presided over the most dismal development period of any (ostensibly worked on) software I have seen -- such poor performance would be grounds for termination at any job.
As for what I want, I put in my votes like everybody else -- sure I'd be slightly disgruntled if my wants are ignored while everyone else gets what they want... but the truth is hardly anybody got anything they wanted.
I'm not anti-SketchUp at all. Wait until 2013 (ugh) is released and see what kind a zoo this place turns into... the chaos upon release of SketchUp 8 was just a small sample of what you can expect with the next (and I believe last) wave of disappointing results.
The mere fact that Sketchup 9, which should have been ready for release, was scrapped should tell you that they had nothing worthwhile to release even 2 years after the SketchUp 8 fiasco. After 4 years of essentially doing nothing you really believe they are competent to get the job done at this time? And based on what, the last worthwhile update was SketchUp 7 -- so you have to go back many years to see anything good Bacus has done.
All I've seen are excuses and rationalizations as to why things aren't getting done -- I want results... plain and simple.
Best,
Jason. -
@unknownuser said:
this process simply does not exist with sketchup.. i'm sorry but it doesn't.. and to make matters worse, they try to make it seems like it does via Q&As or polls for most desired features etc.. but none of that stuff ever happens (and if it does.. meaning a user makes a direct request which is then implemented.. it is very very rare)
I remember these polls, I even participated, but the problem with the polls is they were open to everyone, and not trying to sound like a dick, but the guy that just downloaded SU to build a gun for use in second life is not worthy of cancelling out my vote, a professional (as in I earn my living with SU and not that I'm a SU wizard) It should have been focused at the pro users or done on these forums, people that use it everyday and have a genuine invested interest in the future of the product.
But that was a time when Google really did not need the revenue generated by pro licenses as Google Earth was the focus, where free users could be duped into creating content.
Lets give Trimble a chance, wait until SU2013.
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I agree -- and at the time I even suggested that they have separate polls for Pro users and free version users. I stepped on some free version users toes at that time, but I believed strongly that if you pay your money, you have more of a say than the guy who just downloaded it...
However the reality is none of it matters anyway -- free or Pro we all get ignored equally.
Best,
Jason. -
@solo said:
but the guy that just downloaded SU to build a gun for use in second life is not worthy of cancelling out my vote
lol.. yeah.. that guy..
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@solo said:
Lets give Trimble a chance, wait until SU2013.
seriously, for me.. sketchup could stay exactly how it is right this very moment and i'd be ok with it..
but.. it has to take the back seat now.. it used to be the go-to for me but i've grown designwise over the past decade and the app hasn't grown with me..
i don't foresee myself not using sketchup in the future nor do i see myself not continuing as a pro user..
i just don't love* the app anymore.. that's all.(*or however i should try to describe my feelings about a tool.. +insert_awesome_joke_here+
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@jbacus said:
improvements for developers: Rendering engines (mainly, V-Ray; to a lesser degree, Maxwell) should be able to execute 'inside SketchUp' in a 64-bit environment, rather than running their rendering in their own thread.
3rd-party rendering engines are free to execute operations in 64-bit environments if they design their architecture to do so. Many of them have done so today— there are significant architectural advantages to doing so. Some renderers, like Maxwell, market the ability to execute in a 64-bit environment (as well as the ability to do things like distributed network rendering) as an advanced feature that justifies purchasing their "Maxwell Studio" rendering suite.
Well... I am not a programming guru, but I have understood that there are actually some benefits if a renderer can operate in context of SU, if SU stays in 32 bit - we can only load 32 bit dll and so. If SU where 64 bit, communication between SU and 64 bit renderer would be (much) simplified - not need for RPC or some other kludge.
I sure can understand thinking 32/64 bit with "SU" goggles... then 64 bit may not sound tempting; a lot of work for 64 bit conversion, no speed benefit,...
But maybe think it as a investment for the future and imago development - a positive mojo. -
@jason_maranto said:
the chaos upon release of SketchUp 8
@jason_maranto said:
the SketchUp 8 fiasco
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That didn't happen for the initial SketchUp 8 release. That was post-Google.
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It was the only thing I could think of.
Maybe the whole 'lack of features' updated between 7 and 8. But like you I struggle to remember the whole fiasco.
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Maybe my memory is too clear on this -- but these forums exploded with complaints for weeks after the release. This lengthy expression of intense dissatisfaction was the thing that sparked the polls PR move.
Now to be fair most of the complainers are no longer here -- either they moved on to other packages or simply went back into lurk mode.
Actually I'm a bit surprised at so much apathy from the user base here -- I can only read this as "giving up"... which does not bode well for the future of the software.
Whatever the reality, Jeff is right, I made my decision before and nothing that has happened in the interim has altered my perception of the situation. I have no faith in Bacus to deliver a useful update, and my time and attention are limited, so I'm out.
Best,
Jason. -
@Jason....
I know alot of people may not agree with your method of delivery. But I do think that someone so passionate about progress does deserve a platform to shout their opinions.
Claiming that users here are apathetic to your concerns or SU's development is not really a fact you can claim. Not on my part anyway.
SU is a tool. No different than a hammer. I don't try and use a hammer to tighten a nut. I see no point in asking the hammer manufacturer to add a spanner at one end because I'm a lazy and won't go get another tool.
@unknownuser said:
SketchUp is a simple, 3D conceptual design modeler used by architects, engineers and anyone who wants to play with ideas in 3D.
That's what it is. Simple. Play. Concept. Ideas.
Do I want it to be like Blender? Yes. Do I want all sorts of doodads and doo-hickeys that suit my end goal? Yes. Do I want speed improvements with next-gen tech running it? Yes.
Will it happen? No.
Does that mean I gave up? No. It means I'm fully aware of what it can do.
I know you are adamant about the whole 64bit jazz and blah blah blah. Is that really gonna satisfy your needs? You still have mapping issues, tris galore etc...
Trying to drag the SU team through the mud because you have pushed past their apps usefulness isn't conducive to your development as an artist.
Learn something YOU can't do everyday....that's development.
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Yes, of course you are right, I have issues that I would like addressed like UV Unwrap and triangulation controls (or at least visibility)... however, I would acknowledge those may be outside the scope of what most users might be using SketchUp for.
64-bit is a different issue -- my role on this forum has been to help people... particularly people who are having issues with rendering via Maxwell. That's not to say I could not help with other facets of SketchUp, but there are already plenty of people who do those things here.
Anyhow, the 64-bit issue is a huge roadblock for Maxwell users, and one which creates alot of extra headaches. I can only imagine that the same would be said for similar renderers like Thea.
So from that point of view 64-bit is something that would easily benefit a large chunk of users right out of the gate... and even open new possibilities for other 3d party developers.
I've said all this before in various forms over several threads -- so this is nothing new. I'm only reiterating it here since you made some statements that I cannot fully agree with.
On the issue of SketchUps role in my workflow -- because of the stellar plugin for Maxwell I have a desire to keep SketchUp as my hub... unfortunately other apps I may like either do not have a Maxwell plugin or the Maxwell plugin is not as good. Thus my reluctance to give up here... which has nothing to do with any lingering affection for SketchUp.
Blender would be a great example of a software that I might like to use -- however there is no official Maxwell plugin and the plugins that are available are WIP's. I have other options that are more suitable, and I am ready to move to one of them... there is nothing I need that SketchUp does that my other options cannot do better (with the exception of the Maxwell plugin).
The fact that you have largely abandoned SketchUp should raise huge red flags for the SketchUp dev team -- you have more reason to stay with the software than just about anybody I know... so your situation brought alot of clarity to my own thinking on the matter.
Best,
Jason. -
I'm fairly sure that in some point there will be a critical momentum when a mass of professional users will actually start to look on a other solution. At the moment SU definitely delivers on a certain level (in my use at least
), but I have to say future is foggy.I have used SU about 7-8 years. In that time I have managed to convenience several people to start using it. Unfortunately now I personally know many who are looking a alternative. Have to admit it's not just because of lacking with 64 bit, but simply they need a tool that can produce and handle huge amounts of polygons (for a render engine
) and they also seems to prefer ongoing development that's actually happening with some competitive products.What I have seen is that they tend to jump on Rhino or 3DS Max, some even to blender.
Also SU is getting a stronger and stronger hobbyist stamp and that might also affect. If brand/product gets a stain, it's hard to win back a lost customer. -
@notareal said:
Also SU is getting a stronger and stronger hobbyist stamp and that might also affect. If brand/product gets a stain, it's hard to win back a lost customer.
I agree with this entire post, but this last bit is particularly relevant.
Best,
Jason. -
Don't get me wrong I want to see forward progression as much as the next guy.
It's easy blame Google or John or how the planets aligned for the current status of SU. I just have no facts that either of these were the cause.
But feel free to continue your crusade for 64bit as I'll benefit too. I just can't give an educated reason why it is needed. If I could I would be shouting along with you.
I have to trust the dev when he tells a paying customer there'll be no improvements if they add this.
Maybe if we ran some polls here it would be easier to collate the information they need instead long meandering threaded discussions.
Though I do remember this cryptic response when the original Trimble announcement was made...
@jbacus said:
Hi guys,
Obviously we are still working out the product roadmap and we still won't be able offer any more specific forward-looking statements than we ever did. But it is clear to us that Trimble is better aligned as a company with the SketchUp team's goals than Google. We've learned a ton from our time at Google, but there's plenty we wanted to do that we couldn't.
Trimble is an interesting company and is far more invested in software than most people realize— particularly software for the AEC industry. If you don't know about Tekla, you should. Ditto for many of the other recent BIM acquisitions they have made.
Trimble are committed to growing our team and have invested in our product's future. They understand what our mission is, and support it wholeheartedly. Trimble is about "...transforming the way people work." And that is something that SketchUp has always done.
john
.(ps: just so you guys know, there are 64-bit (and multithreaded) members of the SketchUp team sitting together in a room reading these posts.)
Though that last sentence can be interpreted 50 different ways. Obviously leaving the essential unclear.
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@unknownuser said:
Have to admit it's not just because of lacking with 64 bit, but simply they need a tool that can produce and handle huge amounts of polygons
And this is my only concern, I care less how it's done just that it's done. I come up against this daily as the nature of my work requires higher poly modeling, so I'm at the proverbial fork in the road, do I continue my convoluted and rather hefty workflow by patching all high poly models in studio or do I move on to an app that can handle more poly's?
basically my laziness to learn a new app to the extent I know SU has been the only reason I'm still here.
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I can only go by how often the issue pops up for Maxwell users, where the problem is the 4 Gb limit on RAM, and various workarounds must be used... which I suppose is tolerable for full Render Suite users (like myself), but useless for stand-alone plugin users.
Not knowing the particulars of how Thea implemented rendering inside SketchUp, I would hazard to guess that those users will run up against this issue where, whether they want to keep using SketchUp or not, they will be forced out into the "studio" component simply because SketchUp can't handle the job.
I suppose the situation is even more dire for rendering engines that are run solely inside SketchUp... but I'm not sure any of those would benefit from the extra polygon detail the way unbiased engines do (Twilight would be my only guess here).
I've said it for a long time -- that Maxwell (and Unbiased rendering in general) and SketchUp are working towards contrary goals... meaning the way SketchUp wants to work, and the way a Unbiased engine wants things to be, are not really ideally compatible. I am of the opinion that SketchUps way of working is antiquated, and no longer useful the way it was even as recently as 5 years ago... low-poly modeling is no longer the order of the day -- even in poly-count sensitive areas like video games. The very last place this was useful was Google Earth... but who cares about that now that Google is gone.
SketchUp feels old and clunky -- in more than one way.
Best,
Jason.
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