Sketchup is Inacurrate???
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The affects of an Arc path's segment's angle to the face to be extruded with native FollowMe have been discussed many times over...
Here are the three variants.
An Arc path that does not have its start segment perpendicular to the face: radius sized base, but odd start/end facets.
An Arc path that does have its start [half] segment perpendicular to the face: non-radius sized base, half start/end facets.
EEbyLathe, which produces the desired result: radius sized base, all full facets matching Arc's segmentation etc...
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I'm not really understanding what the 'error' is in Olav's example. The path appears to be set up to produce two very short, on-axis side segments, joined by a 4 segment arc. Isn't this exactly what Follow Me has done?
I hate to sound like I'm defending SU yet again, but the quadrant below was produced in a single action (using Loft junctions along 2 paths).
You can't realistically expect SU to guess your intentions. If you want a quadrant with two end profiles sharing a common centre of rotation and at right angles to each other, then draw them that way; don't provide SU with a path with which it doesn't stand a cat-in-hells chance of achieving your aim and expect it to magically solve your geometry errors for you.
The same goes for drawing an extrude path using a simple arc...like when you round off the corner of a rectangle, In that situation, neither end segment will be on axis...so you can't realistically expect the resulting end profiles to be either.I'm not saying that the devs or a Ruby scripter couldn't produce a specific tool for producing such a quadrant (leaving the default extrude action exactly how it is...which works perfectly well in most cases) But there are plenty of ways of achieving the same result at present, including the plugin I used, which took little longer than using Follow me.
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@alan fraser said:
I'm not really understanding what the 'error' is in Olav's example. The path appears to be set up to produce two very short, on-axis side segments, joined by a 4 segment arc. Isn't this exactly what Follow Me has done?
actually, in that exact situation, i think the measurements are correct.. (i can't measure right now but this is probably right.. and RoundCorner would draw it accurately in a similar situation)
if you put a little flat space prior to the corner, the measurements will start going bad too.
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=451105#p451105(visually, olav's example is not correct.. you'd have to get the sides back to 90º but upon doing so, i'm pretty sure the numbers will be right)
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@alan fraser said:
You can't realistically expect SU to guess your intentions.
correct, if there's an arc in the path then it acts one way.. if the path is not arcs/curves then it offsets accordingly.. no guesswork required.
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@unknownuser said:
@ Alan,You can't realistically expect SU to guess your intention
Really? What alternative intentions could I of had in this example? Why would anyone want the result as shown in my diagram?
Why would I, as a user, care about weather or not the SU needs to read the beginning of the path perpendicular? or why would I want to know how the dog on thing is programmed?
I use a path, that starts and ends in a square, an arch just as SU draws it and that is all I got using the ntive SU tools.
I don't have an alternative arch tool that draws an arch with a half segment at the start and the end.
Also talking a bout guessing, when I draw a rectangular shape with the rectangle tool, SU guesses that I may be drawing a square or a golden section. Hmmm,,
And obviously the geometry produced by Sketchup in my example is useless to say the best and completely unacceptable to make it clear.
@ TIG, I haven't expected anything else but that this issue had been discussed many times before, and there is a obvious reason why.
But quite on the contrary to my amazement the developers of Sketchup have not found it necessary to even attempt to make this work. (I guess they are just thinking "good enough")An arch does not end perpendicular it is dependent on the center and all segments need to be equal.
I think these issues reside in Sketchup because someone keeps denying what is really needed on the user side; and because of that stubbornness, we, the users, have to put up with work arounds and a cluttered up, extensive plug in library.
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@desertraven said:
But quite on the contrary to my amazement the developers of Sketchup have not found it necessary to even attempt to make this work. (I guess they are just thinking "good enough")
dunno, i think it's best you start seeking alternatives.. i mean here in this very thead, one of the developers has said "oh.. that would be neat to have in sketchup"…
neat?
not absolutely necessary?
fighting up to this point was an uphill battle.. after john's response, that hill just turned into a vertical wall..
personally, i'm over it.. can't believe i lasted this long..
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N.E.A.T: never ever ask this.
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@unknownuser said:
@desertraven said:
But quite on the contrary to my amazement the developers of Sketchup have not found it necessary to even attempt to make this work. (I guess they are just thinking "good enough")
dunno, i think it's best you start seeking alternatives.. i mean here in this very thead, one of the developers has said "oh.. that would be neat to have in sketchup"…
neat?
not absolutely necessary?
fighting up to this point was an uphill battle.. after john's response, that hill just turned into a vertical wall..
personally, i'm over it.. can't believe i lasted this long..
I'm quite amazed you stuck it out fighting so long and also you never seem to sleep? I'll have to look up Johns respond I may have missed it.
I'm not sure if posting here will ever do any change, but I just think spreading awareness is a good thing.I've spent so many hours working my ass off using Sketchup on various large scale projects, remembering those moments where I wished I had one of the developers at hand to just give them a good shake to get them back to the reality of what we are doing here.
But despite all frustration so far SU has served me well, if I look on the bright side.
I am able to create vast scenes with tons of buildings and still am able to work on a detail over there and not have the whole thing freeze like I would have had using 3D Max or AutoCAD.
Usually I save each building or building segment in it's own file.But anyway then again, it get's me when I see all this potential and only some glitches standing in the way of excellence. I have spent hours, and this is not just me, to hunt down a minor little issue that has suck in because either me or one of my guys hasn't payed explicit attention to what Sketchup thinks is the right way. As soon as you leave the square you are in trouble.
Many times I also experience that after opening a drawing after a day or two some minute things have changed.
I don't have a concrete example at hand, but it happened more then once and it always has to do with geometry that is on any angle that is not square. e.g. 2 or more buildings at an 12.5 degree angle to each other.One time I did an organic shaped thatched roof, every time I attempted to save the drawing Sketchup threatened to "fix" my geometry, only to add odd, twisted faces in a so far clean solid model.
I see there is lots of work to do and a long road ahead if the Dev. is serious about this product.
Anyway, I hope to see you around here some time longer, I appreciate you input and your eagerness to fight for the better of Sketchup, thanks,
Olav
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I wouldn't want anyone to imagine that I think SU is 'good enough' either. One of the areas of contention here is down to a basic misunderstanding in terms...I think.
Take the example of Olav's quarter hemisphere. My viewpoint is why would you think that the Follow Me Tool would lathe a quarter turn under those circumstances. In order to do that, it would need to be a Rotate Tool; it isn't, it's an extrude tool...as its name suggests.
While it is true that it can be 'tricked' into being a Rotate Tool in one, very specific circumstance...lathing a profile around a full circle, it can only do that because (a) that extrude path has no beginning or end; and (b) the profile's inner edge just happens to be at the circle's centre. You have to remember, however, that it isn't actually rotating around that central axis...it's extruding along the exterior, circular path.
Like I said, this is one single, specific circumstance. It is not downscaleable to lathing a quarter or half turn...because such a path is not an infinite loop...it has ends...and at those ends Follow me will revert to its true nature as an Extrude Tool, exactly as in Olav's illustration. This is the reason that I claim such a result is neither an error nor is it illogical. It is entirely logical...for an Extrude Tool.
Why SU doesn't actually possess a proper Rotate/Lathe tool after all this time is quite another matter.
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@alan fraser said:
I wouldn't want anyone to imagine that I think SU is 'good enough' either. One of the areas of contention here is down to a basic misunderstanding in terms...I think.
Take the example of Olav's quarter hemisphere. My viewpoint is why would you think that the Follow Me Tool would lathe a quarter turn under those circumstances. In order to do that, it would need to be a Rotate Tool; it isn't, it's an extrude tool...
Why SU doesn't actually possess a proper Rotate/Lathe tool after all this time is quite another matter.
But Alan, that is what they are selling it for or else they would of provided the revolve tool long ago.
I've watched those tutorials on SU6 when it was introduced as the architectural tool for Google Earth.
I will never forget the sentence "trust Sketchup it is smart and easy enough to know what you are doing." okay that was pertaining to the inference engine.
And that again proves their position of "it" being good enough.With the given native tools there is no alternative to creating the undesired result, and then fixing it manually.
So it still boils down to the arch and circle tool where unexpected inconsistency occurs.
as Jeff already elaborated on the "J" shows what anybody would expect of a offset tool to do when dealing with arches.
By failing to deliver a clean solution, there are pitfalls that can affect your work on the computer using SU down the road; if one does not know or pay explicit attention to the shortcomings of SU.
this example shows how inconsistent and deceptive the workflow is with SU.:
The above diagram shows how a circle is created using the inference engines suggestion.
In creating the circle I am following the red direction which creates the circle according to it's radius on a vertice (not at a half segment)
So going from there I'm going to create the half circle for my arch.Next i'm using the offset tool. Now if I know it all and am paying attention I see there is a inconsistency at both ends of the arch/ half circle. Also I notice SU breaks up the arch / half circle and inserts two end points. Why I don't know.
So let's say I want my offset half circle to be an actual half circle then what do I do??
I go in there and add two small pieces using the inference engine.Now I realize I've just gained two more end points in my geometry, I can not get rid of, unless I explode the curve.
If i was to close the shape of my two arches I would be able to extrude my 3d arch but then would see that I need to smooth the two lines appearing where the extra endpoints are.
At this point I would rather draw a brand new arch.
Anyway In case I say who cares it's only SU, good enough, I'll take the thing as it comes.
So the above diagram shows the whole dilemma, either the post will not be consistent with the width of the arch, not being 2' but 1' 11 13/16" and that added up in an array can cause trouble just like that,
or I fix it manually, gaining the before mentioned extra endpoints.So the extra endpoints can lead to a problem in SU, that is if you don't pay explicit attention, it will be a pit fall.
The inference engine could, because it is so close to the desired endpoint, pick the wrong one and then your faces won't close on some wall down the road when you're not thinking of the extra endpoint any more.
This is one of those minute little things that can get you down the road. And then you got to get back and find that little bugger.I think the circle and arches really need to follow what one expects them to do when offsetting, copying, or extruding along them as a path. They are circles and arches and should not act as if they were segments.
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@alan fraser said:
Why SU doesn't actually possess a proper Rotate/Lathe tool after all this time is quite another matter.
that reminded me of something from when sketchup8 first came out.. they used this picture as promo for the new solid tools..
but you can't draw that with sketchup tools and have it be recognized as solid.. try that with followme and you'll have all sorts of problems
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=268160#p268160
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Olav, in the case of the arches, wouldn't it make more sense not to bisect the circle until after you have offset it? And when you offset it, just ignore the value in the Measurement box, but offset by inferencing across the top of the established pillar?
That way, you not only avoid all the nonsense of having to deal with little line stubs, but you also get an entirely consistent vertex to vertex distance up the pillar and right around the arch.
Or am I missing something?
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@unknownuser said:
Anyway In case I say who cares it's only SU, good enough...
...as any polygons / box / modelers
But it's one of the more friendly!
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Now this is the best screw up I've encountered so far with the follow me tool,
Un-frigging believable! look at the original arch on the bottom, the outer one!
I used the inner arch as the path
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Why not put an image or a V6 version ?
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@alan fraser said:
Olav, in the case of the arches, wouldn't it make more sense not to bisect the circle until after you have offset it? And when you offset it, just ignore the value in the Measurement box, but offset by inferencing across the top of the established pillar?
That way, you not only avoid all the nonsense of having to deal with little line stubs, but you also get an entirely consistent vertex to vertex distance up the pillar and right around the arch.
Or am I missing something?Yes, Alan, knowing SU that, would be the better way.
But the best would be if SU did handle this correctly.
Otherwise I can't work intuitively and the way I like to and I will be forced to work the way SU dictates me to.Edit: Also, the next guy I hire to do some work for me may not know of this and assume he'll just draw a shape and quickly outline it, knowing little about what is lurking beneath the obvious - layer.
Then I have to when all is done make sure this was all done right to avoid a pit fall down the road?
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@alan fraser said:
it isn't, it's an extrude tool...as its name suggests.
and at those ends Follow me will revert to its true nature as an Extrude Tool, exactly as in Olav's illustration. This is the reason that I claim such a result is neither an error nor is it illogical. It is entirely logical...for an Extrude Tool.
getting into what may be a semantics issue now but regarding what an extrude tool means..
if follow me were an extrude tool, it should give this as the result in olav's scenario..
follow me is a sweep tool.. a 1 rail sweep tool.. and it should be able to draw an 1/8th sphere given olav's setup curves..
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@driven said:
Create a new tool by exposing, existing, functionality of arcs and circles and cardinal points.
re: new tool.. not so much relating to the main topic of this thread.. there's a ruby that's probably not incredibly tough to write which would be pretty cool..
as i see it: (meaning.. hey, i haven't super thought this through so pick it apart
)it's a circular guide tool (spoken about often but it seems rubiable)
• basically looks and acts just like the circle tool *
• upon setting radius , all intersecting geometry on that plane gets marked with a cpoint **
• if i hold option, i can draw another circle guide and have the intersections between the two be marked with a cpoint**that's basically it (for starters
)- ie- click a centerpoint, then the circle guide visually expand/contracts upon moving the mouse.. click somewhere to set radius.. or use the measurement box
** the cpoints should be grouped.. makes it easier to delete them later or hide etc..
*** possibly at this point (working with multiple guides) it should no longer give intersections for existing geometry.. they're only interacting between themselves..
[edit]
fwiw-- it should look and act pretty much like vertex tools' circle select tool.. (except it snaps)
(maybe make it a different color or something so it doesn't look like a straight rip-off.. or a group effort.. someone does the 
math and tt does the 
)[edit2] -- re: edit#1.. damn.. it would also have to be able to lock to planes and such like the circle tool (or better yet, the protractor..) but it has to look like vertex tools ... and in one fell swoop, smthg that started simple enough,...
- ie- click a centerpoint, then the circle guide visually expand/contracts upon moving the mouse.. click somewhere to set radius.. or use the measurement box
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Sorry Jeff, it's not me indulging in semantics ...it's you. The Follow Me Tool is most definitely an extrude tool, not a rotate tool. I've already pointed out the single instance in which it can be used as a form of rotate tool...a complete 360 degree lathe....and page after page of this thread has been devoted to various people zeroing in on that one specific aspect and complaining about the fact that you can't downsize it to a 180 or 90 degree turn. You can't...it's 360 or nothing.
You know as well as I do that any extrude tool worthy of the name can extrude along a path, not just the contrived example you posted...which is more akin to Vector P/P...but along a curved path, not a single vector. It is, in fact, a loft operation. Did you construct it manually, or did you simply use Loft along Path?
Follow Me has an infinity of uses beyond its very narrow use covered in these ages. You can't possibly claim it's any kind of revolve tool when it's used to extrude a profile along paths like these hydraulic pipes. Of course it's an extrude tool...but your definition of what an extrude tool ought to do would have it maintaining the orientation of the original circle as it follows the path around those bends. That would produce a totally ludicrous result.
Any kind of Rotate Tool would require you to define the axis of rotation and then specify the degree of rotation about that axis...producing exactly what Olav would like to see; and exactly what you have to do when 'programming' a dynamic door component, for example. We don't have that...because we don't have a Rotate Tool.
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