Act of God.
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@unknownuser said:
‘TIG’, in your dissertation on page 2, you actually treated God as a superman...
I am not ‘Marian’ or 'jason_m', to be fooled by such philosophy...
'Cornel', that's some solid 'reasoning'.
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@unknownuser said:
‘TIG’, in your dissertation on page 2, you actually treated God as a superman...
I am not ‘Marian’ or 'jason_m', to be fooled by such philosophy...
BUT isn't God even better than Superman or any human 'hero' - by the very definition of God - God is supernatural, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, all-knowing, all-powerful, the creator of absolutely everything, there is nothing he can't do [if he were to put his mind to it], and so on... BUT if he's not these things, then what use has he ?
And if he's a lesser 'demi-god', then by definition, again he's not God.
He's either God or he's not God: you can't have it both ways; unless you accept Quantum mechanics as the truth when all things are possible.
An absolute all-powerful being == God
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'TIG', you correctly define God, but you want Him to act according to your thinking...
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But am I not made in his image? So if my thinking is awry, then surely he has made me somehow incorrectly, or at least in such a way that I am 'faulty' - which he of course should have anticipated as he should know where he original designs will lead... If he intended me to be like this then why all the hoo-ha ? Why'd he make it so difficult to become 'perfect', he knows how it is - he designed the whole system that produces these results. I really can't revere a being who represents himself to us with such obliqueness and obscurantism - which he surely knows is all but impossible to penetrate, so we will all but always fail to meet his exacting standards, which of course he seems to have devised to be unachievable to most - having made us all too fallible. In my book setting anyone a tasking knowing that they will almost certainly fail, is not the loving kinda guy I want MY God to be.
I can understand Jesus [and other men of good heart and mind] but why fuzzy the issue with this supernatural God dude who's forever messing with our lives and minds: just what planet is he on ???
He needs to get a proper job! -
I'm not sure you actually get the concept of Grace... but it is the opposite of Works -- which is what you seem to be under the misconception that God demands.
Romans is an excellent book to read on the topic of Grace vs Works.
Best,
Jason. -
TIG wrote: “[But am I not made in his image? So if my thinking is awry, then surely he has made me somehow incorrectly...]”
Is true, God created man like His image, but NOT IDENTICAL..., and, after that, man have fallen, because of sin...
Satan lied to Adam and Eve that if they become independent from God, they will be exactly like God, and deceived them ...
When human bodies of ‘born again’ people will be glorified, the situation will change again... Believers will be metamorphosed, regenerated, restored... -
@unknownuser said:
‘Alan F’ wrote: “[. Because if he (God) does control everything that happens in nature then he can just as easily prevent catastrophes as cause them...he can micromanage who lives and who dies.]”
Yes Alan, our lives are in Creator’s hand, and He “can micromanage who lives and who dies”.
He can, of course, accept/prevent/limit... all catastrophes, and so on, because He is Omniscient, is Almighty, is Omnipresent...So you are admitting that he does deliberately kill people in natural catastrophes, or at least fails to save them when he could choose to do so. Most of these people are just innocent people, just going about their lives, trying to do the best they can. Some of them are truly admirable people, many are children, many are infants. Many die in protracted agony...alone and afraid. If these were the actions of a human, we would justly regard such a person as a sociopath...someone who demonstrates a complete lack of empathy and concern for his fellow man.
And this is the all-loving being we are supposed to worship?Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me that it isn't our place to judge the Lord, or that he works in mysterious ways. That's just code for saying that you don't have an answer for this apparent contradiction. And if these really are the ways of the Lord then he's in serious need of a good PR man. Let's face it, he sent his only son down to earth nearly half of recorded history ago, to spread the good news and it's still only reached a tiny fraction of humanity. The Harry Potter books have had greater success.. If he is genuinely interested in saving mankind (from whatever he's supposedly saving us from) he's doing a piss-poor job of it.
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@unknownuser said:
Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me that it isn't our place to judge the Lord, or that he works in mysterious ways. That's just code for saying that you don't have an answer for this apparent contradiction. And if these really are the ways of the Lord then he's in serious need of a good PR man. Let's face it, he sent his only son down to earth nearly half of recorded history ago, to spread the good news and it's still only reached a tiny fraction of humanity. The Harry Potter books have had greater success.. If he is genuinely interested in saving mankind (from whatever he's supposedly saving us from) he's doing a piss-poor job of it.
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We humans commit mass genocide for our comfort and convenience on a regular basis -- life is life, at least God sees the bigger picture, whereas we are often so short-sighted that we are just hurting ourselves down the line.
You seem to be feeling pretty morally superior to God but tell me what have we done to planet as a race? There's not much to recommend humans as the peak of intelligence -- if there's not something bigger than us, then we are all in very deep trouble.
Best,
Jason. -
‘Alan F’. claims that “Most of these people are just innocent people, just going about their lives, trying to do the best they can.”
But God sees things differently:
“[There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, NOT EVEN ONE.]” (Romans 3:10-12)No one is INNOCENT PEOPLE, and,
“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
Think more deeply, Alan!
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@unknownuser said:
‘Alan F’. claims that “Most of these people are just innocent people, just going about their lives, trying to do the best they can.”
But God sees things differently:
“[There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, NOT EVEN ONE.]” (Romans 3:10-12)No one is INNOCENT PEOPLE, and,
“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
Think more deeply, Alan!
holy crap! either life is sacred or it isn't. pick one fer cryin' out loud.
This has been the most asinine series of people conversing past each other I have seen in a while. Amusing all the same... -
@unknownuser said:
This has been the most asinine series of people conversing past each other I have seen in a while
Reminds me of Celebrity Deathmatch
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@ andybot’, Re. “life is sacred or it isn't...”
“[Now God has shown us a way to be made right with Him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when He freed us from the penalty for our sins.] “
(see Romans 3:21-24) -
@ cornel: I guess I mean the whole "thou shalt not kill" sort of thing... I just think it's contradictory.
(And a bonus just for the original post: "thou shalt not make unto you any graven image"...)
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about trial or tribulation?
@unknownuser said:
Every soul must taste of death, and We try you with evil and with good, for ordeal. And unto Us ye will be returned. (21:35)
@unknownuser said:
And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light. (184) Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion. (185) Assuredly ye will be tried in your property and in your persons, and ye will hear much wrong from those who were given the Scripture before you, and from the idolaters. But if ye persevere and ward off (evil), then that is of the steadfast heart of things. (186)
a little description on how theist might see some in certain point of view
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@jason_maranto said:
We humans commit mass genocide for our comfort and convenience on a regular basis -- life is life, at least God sees the bigger picture, whereas we are often so short-sighted that we are just hurting ourselves down the line.
You seem to be feeling pretty morally superior to God but tell me what have we done to planet as a race? There's not much to recommend humans as the peak of intelligence -- if there's not something bigger than us, then we are all in very deep trouble.
Best,
Jason.i know you're definitely not going to look at this scenario with an open mind but imagine humankind if there were no gods left.. i'm pretty damn sure we'd have had a much less brutal history if it weren't for gods..
we're in the 21st century and what's pretty much the lamest thing happening on the planet? the thing that's trickling it's leftover crap onto everybody else on the planet in all ways imaginable? christians vs. muslims
and the same crap has been going on for the past coupla_thousand years.. christians have so much blood on their hands it's pathetic.. it's disgusting.. truly disgusting.
and the same way how you think christianity is the 'right' religion.. millions more people think their religion is right.. people that are way more hardcore religious than you'll ever be.. each step, every breath they take is somehow connected with god (not the white guy in the sky.. rather, their god).. i see it a lot.. right here in my neighborhood.. mainly a mix of 3 separate gods but there are more in smaller numbers..
and for the most part, none of them like each other.. it's funkedand i get it, living in tampa or missouri or arkansas or whatever.. you're raised by, surrounded by, and wholly interact with white people that all have more/less the same beliefs.. the only time you see the brown people is on tv but they're constantly being shoved down your throat as evil doers that want to kill you in the name of allah..
take religion out of the picture.. we'll be better off as a species and on individual levels, have better lives..
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@ ‘Jeff H.’
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Do not confuse true Christianity, with ‘so-called’ Christianity (false Christianity)...! In the name of Christianity have done a lot of damages/horrors...
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True religion is that by which you get salvation, and that which changes your life!
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Cornel probably has been ignoring me since the beginning
but i guess someone must learn to quit yelling and screaming at others, so they might have a little more chance to know and get closer to god.
i don't care what path or religion one might take in time, as long as one still looking for the only god.
it's in each of ourselves, i believe. no matter how hard life is. -
@unknownuser said:
‘Alan F’. claims that “Most of these people are just innocent people, just going about their lives, trying to do the best they can.”
But God sees things differently:
“[There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, NOT EVEN ONE.]” (Romans 3:10-12)No one is INNOCENT PEOPLE, and,
“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)
Think more deeply, Alan!
That's nothing but religious masochism and sophistry.. The idea that some new born babe is born into sin and needs to be redeemed is just ridiculous. If there really is a god and that really is the case, then he couldn't have chosen a more ludicrous model. Has it never occured to you that all this stuff about the need for redemption and all those quotations you are so fond of like "The fool says there is no god." are all nothing but job creation strategies?
If I was selling religion, now or at any time in the past, I'd be saying exactly that kind of thing in order to ensure that the power, status and tithes kept flowing my way. It really is a case of "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they."
Has it never occurred to you that God appeared to be having direct conversations with every man and his dog in that particular part of the world at that particular time...but appears to have been remarkably quiet ever since?...at least to people who aren't certifiable and hearing voices in their head. I don't suppose that has anything to do with the culture extant at that time and in that place, or that they were largely illiterate goat-herders, struggling to find some sense and meaning to the world around them?
The notion of any kind of omniscient being is self-contradictory. If you exist outside of time and space, you don't have the faintest idea of what it's like to be us. You might have an academic appreciation, but that's not the same as really knowing. Almost everything we think or do...the very essence of our psyche is predicated upon not knowing what tomorrow will bring. If you can forsee the future, then you can't know fear, uncertainty, trepidation, disappointment, joy, exhileration, anxiety or any one of a thousand other emotions that we use as definitions of what it is to be human. If you don't know these things, you are a long way from being omniscient.
At one time I even wondered if that was the true meaning of our existence..that we were, in some way, aspects of God himself, injected into his creation to gather all those emotions by proxy and literally offer them up to him to complete that flawed omniscience. So you see, we heathens are capable of fairly profound religious contemplation. We did not arrive at our present conclusions without very serious philosophical reasoning...probably far more than the average church-fodder christian. We are not the arrogant and simplistically prideful, blind materialists that fundamentalists like to kid themselves we are, because it offers them a mote of consolation.
I do think deeply...rather more deeply than you do, it would seem. It takes no great depth of thought to merely regurgitate ready-made answers.
I haven't reached any conclusion about the existence of God, other than the fact that if there is one, he not the one we learned about in Sunday School. On this mortal coil at least, his existence (if any) is unprovable, therefore of no real relevance.And while we're at it. The burden of proof does not lie with us rationalists. It's not us that are making extraordinary claims. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
It's not up to us to prove that there was no global flood or that the earth has not undergone substantial changes in the very recent past...although that is perfectly clear to anyone with any decent kind of education who is not straightjacketed by religious dogma.
It is up to those claiming such to provide that proof.If there was a global flood, prove it....hard scientific proof.
If the earth and atmosphere have undergone the changes you claim, prove it...hard scientific proof.
If Noah's ark was real, prove it...where is it? It supposedly made landfall very high up. There are plenty of examples of organic matter thousands of years old, surviving in similar high, dry environments. If the remains of a small animal or plant can survive for that length of time, you'd think there would be some small evidence of something the size of a city block.
If, as Jason claims, the continents only started to drift apart after the flood...very recently, prove it. Demonstrate convincingly why the current model is wrong. Explain how all those layers of basalt stretching out either side of the mid-Atlantic ridge, showing clear evidence of repeated polar magnetic reversals (something that happens very infrequently) are wrong. Demonstrate how the date they give for the separation of the Americas from the Old World...which is entirely consistent with the current continuing rate of separation...is wrong. Again, not quotes from some supposedly self-affirming ancient text, but hard scientific proof.
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