Google is Listening!
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Nice Tuts Mr Bob!
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@tfdesign said:
What a load of arrogant nonsense! It is precisely SketchUp's innovative interface that makes SU so easy to use
Well, well, well...that was quite a violent assertion... Actually I think you really don't get what I was trying to explain, but maybe it wasn't clear enough, and that's why you saw arrogance where there was only a testimony of facts...
So : SketchUp interface was really innovative when it was created, and still is by many ways, but it hasn't really evolve the way it can.
Let's keep the example of the push pull, and, if you don't mind, your 6-year old daughter.
I think, and that's the marvel of sketchup, that's it's really easy for her to build something convincing in a few minutes. But, and that's where I made my point, it should be then quite tricky for you to explain to her why it's not possible to push-pull the curved wall in the backyard, and why she couldn't extrude a simple line to make a fence next to the entrance.@unknownuser said:
Drown SU in multifaceted buttons and devices, and the interface bombs.
I never asked for that...but rather the opposite... Actually, if the native tool were a bit more clever, and able to do such things, it will only make things more easy and interesting, without adding loads of button and toolbars (as it is today if you're using plugins). SketchUp will still be SketchUp, and even maybe a bit more...
Again, making it more capable does not mean making it weaker, more complex, or fashion for only a small time. The efficiency of a tool is the result of a long engineering, of all of its parts, and looking at SketchUp, I have the feeling that some of them have not been push to their best, that's all.
The idea is not to ask "more tools, more tools", but to say "what could we bring to this particular tool to make it better, while keeping it as easy to use as before ".@unknownuser said:
How many other titles out there can claim this? Blender? 3DS Max? Cinema 4D? Heck!
And don't get me wrong, I'm using sketchup since several years, been trying most of the other apps, and still coming back to sketchup, because in many fields it's still by far the best tool. If it was not, why posting anything around here...
... If you still think it's a bunch of nonsense, then I'm sorry...
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[edit].. mrwip, you're misquoting me up there ^^^ (as in, i didn't say any of that) but i'll chalk it up as a typo
@mrwip said:
So, in the case of the “push pull”, in 2010 it should be a kind of multipurpose and intelligent tool, that is able to extrude about everything, regarding to the context. It will greatly help new user, by assisting their hand efficiently, and it will boost the productivity of pro user by reducing the amount of operation necessary to make one simple action.
i sort of skipped over some of this on my phone earlier but yeah, i like your thinking..
it'd be great to have more multipurpose tools in the manner you describe.. like you say, you choose the push/pull and the actual action depends on where you put the mouse.. flat face and it'll work as normal but you can also do the same thing to a curved surface or a line (or series of lines).. pre select and it all extrudes evenly etc.i think that could happen very well in certain cases but, just using the push/pull ideas, i don't think it would be as simple as you make it out to be.. joint-push-pull, i think, draws those preview lines because sketchup can't display the sketchup look to all the moving faces at once.. it needs time to calculate and generate the geometry which takes some. it'd be awesome if the suteam could pull it off somehow and make jointpushpull work the same way as normal pushpull but i really doubt it.
with pushpulling a single line, you're going to run into the problem of which direction to extrude in.. there's a lot more steps or actions involved than just clicking the line and extruding it to the point you're trying to move it to.. it's no longer a simple tool and i seriously don't see the 'greatly helping new user via efficient hand guiding'..
probably the only thing su could do to the pushpull tool while keeping it intuitive is multi select pushpull (to an extent)regardless, this gets me thinking of the bigger picture.. it's not so much 'sketchup is a decade old and needs to to rethink the way it's users interact with the app and it's tools' -as- we're interacting with the computer in the same way we always have.. there's the mouse and there's the keyboard (and 2D screen).. that's pretty much all we have and neither are very natural to us.. (the mouse more-so than the keyboard but still, it's super clunky and outdated).. that's the actual point of contact we have with the computer and it's highly flawed.. all (most) UIs revolve around that and try to suit themselves to fit but really, if you want to make truly smarter and more intuitive drawing tools then you're gonna have to tackle the real problem first.. until then, for the most part, we can either add more toolbars/menus/mouseclicks/keystrokes/etc..
i do think sketchup could accomplish some streamlining and/or add more functions to existing tools while keeping them relatively intuitive but to the extent and ease you're suggesting, i'm not so sure.you know, apple is sort of public testing some stuff along these lines with gestures.. five years worth of refinements and who knows, we might start seeing the mouse going into retirement. not sure if that's the answer but it's a start.
@unknownuser said:
It's really strange to see that no one is ever mentioning the fact that the base of SketchUp could evolve...SketchUp way of handling situation is not some kind of sacred text. The original set of tool was good when it was released, many years ago, but it have to evolve. Creating new function does not mean adding modified old tools to the program, but rethinking the way the original funtion was working....and that should be the job of the developers (no offense...).
I don't like to talk about others software, but programs like Inventor Fusion or spaceclaim, try to find new approach, by making the program more clever, in order to make things more simple, while still really powerful.one thing you might not be understanding about my point of view here is that i definitely have a dream app in my head.. i've tried every single modeler out there that's available on mac (rhino, modo, cheetah, maya, c4d, etc) but i'm always finding my way back to sketchup.. so do many other people because just about every feature request i've seen can end with 'like in max' or 'maya does this'.. why are people using sketchup when there is much more powerful and capable modeling software out there.. that's sort of an important question for the advanced users to answer.. and i'm talking beyond the simple "i like it because i can try multiple revisions of an idea rather quickly" or "it's fun!" or "it's free!!
" .. i'm saying, what do you really like about it? what keeps you coming back to it?
i admit, it's hard to put in words but i'll try.. if i keep it simple and all encompassing, i like it because at it's core SU feels like an architectural modeler.
if i elaborate on that then.. man, i've been building things since i was two years old.. always curious as to why this was built that way etc.. how can cars go up there when if i try it with my legos, it collapses? etc.. got into drafting somewhat early which allowed me to start working through some problems on paper.. got to the age of needing to support myself so i started to put these curiosities and experiments into realities (on other people's dollar i should add ).. i did mostly sketches while working out math and logic via calculators and/or onsite jigs.. some projects would be more formal with draft sketches (ie- not really blueprints per se but working drawings none the less).. a few times, scale models were created to help work through the complications.. eventually, i picked up sketchup (3) and i hope the tie-in is self explanatory..with all the other modelers i don't feel as if they're geared towards architecturally minded people (and i think architecturally is possibly the wrong word.. it's too prestigious or maybe narrow of a word to use for what i'm trying to say.. blue collar engineer?)
it also feels like 'this app is amazing and hey, check it out, it can do what i want.. sort of.. right from that dusty little corner over there.. "... "or, it's super awesome that i can draw this perfect blob of mud in 5 minutes but really, who gives a ? i don't.".. just way too much stuff that might as well be written in chinese.. (animation, sculpting, you know).. when i hear organics, i'm thinking organic form.. not organic the literal..what really needs to happen (if i may be so bold) is not an evolution of sketchup.. more like a revolution of sketchup. that pretty much starts with figuring out why you use it to begin with.. the sub-core of sketchup struggles when dealing with too many polygons but the real core is a bit beyond that.. whatever those original @last guys were thinking, well, they pretty much nailed it whatever it is..
one specific thing i like about sketchup is that it's totally ground based 3D.. there's no vertical planes this and that-- it's just the ground then the inference system.. those 4 window apps are not what i'm looking for.. if i need top front and side views then i'll just draw this thing on paper.. rhino is like that and while i understand the purpose and benefits, it not correct.. i like being able to feel like i'm on the ground and all points are ultimately, related to that.
that's pretty much an immediate bad taste with bonzai for me.. all those planes bouncing around from the get go make me feel like i'm in the matrix instead of the market.. sketchup has the up/down/left/right/front back covered very well within 3d space, and it keeps that at it's root.. i don't really care if i can draw an accurate compound miter's cut line in blank space at a moments notice.. i definitely want that capability available in the app but it doesn't have to be so in my face.. the basis of su navigation is the most comfortable to me..
speaking of bonzai, they almost did what a lot of us are hoping for from sketchup.. i mean, feature wise, that app does what sketchup does and a lot more but why aren't people flocking to it (or heck, maybe they are?).. same with formz.. on paper, that's basically the dream app i'm thinking of.. i think they realized some of the advantages and pitfalls of sketchup and set out to fix it up.. problem is, they made bonzai more sketchup like when in reality, it should be sketchup being more bonzai like.
or a better recipe might be 3 parts sketchup, 1 part modo, 1 part rhino.. it would more likely than not have to be written from the ground up.. with the base idea that kicked off sketchup but with the freedom and aspirations to make it more sleek, refined, and more geared towards the intermediate to advanced modeler.. it's architecture based at heart.. it's not an architecture module.. the modules would be more like animation, smush tools, and the like instead of typically being the other way around.
****cutting myself off here regardless of clipping my ideas.. this has gone on long enough
[i guess i should add this last little snippet concerning some of the realities of an undertaking such as this.. yes, i will wait 2 1/2 years and yes, i will pay 4 figures if necessary]
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@mrwip said:
... If you still think it's a bunch of nonsense, then I'm sorry...
"violent"?
No, quite the opposite. Thanks too for making yourself more clear. I am English, and speak with an english 'tongue'. Sorry if you are not used to that.
Looking at you proposition now, having such a tool doesn't sound as complicated as it did before. It's a good idea. A more intelligent tool, that recognises when you are near a curve, and so then allows a different tool behaviour, if say is accompanied by pressing another key.
I think what made me jump was once using SpaceClaim, which claims to be an engineering version of SketchUp (SketchUp on steroids, as the marketing blurb suggests), and the tool automatically updates for you, which is, in my mind, wrong. I actually found that this behaviour slowed down my workflow! But it could work, if it had an option key that allowed this behaviour.
As for my 6 year old, Key Stage 1 children don't have a hold on the idea of being able to extrude a curved wall (some- yes, but a very small minority). It's only until they reach upper key stage 2 that they start to grasp this concept. This is why, this SU tool should stay as it is (but an option key to trigger this behaviour, yes. I'd support that).
I hope that makes sense now.
Tom
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PS, I don't think I could have said it better than Jeff has in his last post.
However, I think people flock to SU instead of Bonzai, because it is free, and the SU Pro version is cheaper than Bonzai!
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@unknownuser said:
[edit].. mrwip, you're misquoting me up there ^^^ (as in, i didn't say any of that) but i'll chalk it up as a typo
Whoops, sorry, I've messed up with the quoting tool on the last post....
tfdesign, I'm glad to see that my point of view is a bit more clear after that...
... Actually, I find that it's really hard to explain things about the way you're using a program and the way you want it to evolve on such a forum. Everyone has his own point of view, shaped by his own experience, no-one really know why someone is writing something, and it all get quite confusing...I mean, we're always reading things as we want to see them, and really often missing the point of the one who's trying to explain something. Adding to that the fact that many of us are not English native speakers, and the discussion easily turn into great mess... Still, it's really good to be able to express ideas around here !
Jeff, I really appreciate your try to define what makes sense (and essence...) in sketchup... it's quite effective, and shows why it works, by bringing together many concept not well used before in "old" 3D apps (snapping, navigation,...).
@unknownuser said:
the sub-core of sketchup struggles when dealing with too many polygons but the real core is a bit beyond that.. whatever those original @last guys were thinking, well, they pretty much nailed it whatever it is..
... You're touching there what I was struggling to express...There is "something" in the way sketchup was though at first, that still lie in it (that's why we keep using it with pleasure), but that "thing" have not been push or bring in action in the way the software is made, since some years.
... TO end up with the push pull thing, of course it was a schematic example, I'm conscious that extruding a line is not the same action as pushing a face...but still, I'm sure there's something to make there (and on many other subjects too).
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am i missing something with this super push pull tool?
if i want to 'extrude' a line - don't i just grab the end point and move it?
if i want it to be an extrusion i need to lock an inference to vertical, left, right, etc?i agree on a multiple face or curved surface push pull - but that needs to work in specific instances - JPP is a fairly complex ruby in its implementation.
as someone who teaches workshops for a specific application of sketchup - i certainly welcome more powerful tools, but if i need to tell a student too many of these things - 'right click, option, ctrl, left mouse, wiggle your toe, click, end command' - sketchup loses at its core what makes it so wonderful - simple tools to start, with (semi)consistent approach to modify those tools.
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@bmike said:
am i missing something with this super push pull tool?
if i want to 'extrude' a line - don't i just grab the end point and move it?
if i want it to be an extrusion i need to lock an inference to vertical, left, right, etc?Oh, you mean the rectangle tool? That's already in core sketchup.
Tig's extrude edges suite includes vector push pull which allows you to do things that the rectangle tool can't do. But, there's more setup involved which I don't think belongs in core push/pull
(again, don't get me' wrong. I personally woldnt mind more complex operations within the base tools but, they are no longer that simple so I don't think you're going to see it happen to sketchup)
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@unknownuser said:
@bmike said:
am i missing something with this super push pull tool?
if i want to 'extrude' a line - don't i just grab the end point and move it?
if i want it to be an extrusion i need to lock an inference to vertical, left, right, etc?Oh, you mean the rectangle tool? That's already in core sketchup.
Tig's extrude edges suite includes vector push pull which allows you to do things that the rectangle tool can't do. But, there's more setup involved which I don't think belongs in core push/pull
(again, don't get me' wrong. I personally woldnt mind more complex operations within the base tools but, they are no longer that simple so I don't think you're going to see it happen to sketchup)
vector push pull is very cool... but i think it would be a hard sell on packing all those options into a single tool.
fredo and tig and thomthom's tools (and others) are very welcome additions - but IME beyond the beginning user's knowledge base. i usually show a few of them in the workshops i teach - to whet the more experienced students appetite (and give them a link to this forum!)
30% of the folks i teach have a hard enough time installing a basic plugins package into their plugins folder! 10% of them can barely navigate to their programs directory and locate various folders aside from their 'Documents'. 2% have a hard time remembering where they saved something...
so, more complexity - sure - so long as it is layered on a base program that does not overwhelm the core functionality of the program.
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duplicate post!
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@bmike said:
30% of the folks i teach have a hard enough time installing a basic plugins package into their plugins folder! 10% of them can barely navigate to their programs directory and locate various folders aside from their 'Documents'. 2% have a hard time remembering where they saved something...
so, more complexity - sure - so long as it is layered on a base program that does not overwhelm the core functionality of the program.
This is why we really should have a repository in a structured manner where a Plugin Manager would let you browse and download plugins directly from SU. And of course update when updates are available.
The Plugin Manager should be available as an one-click-installer.That's make managing plugins a whole lot easier, and it'd open up people's awareness and that would strengthen the market so more professional plugin writers can make plugins.
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@bmike said:
vector push pull is very cool... but i think it would be a hard sell on packing all those options into a single ..
ok, so I'm confused then. Earlier you were saying that you want to pushpull a line. All you're going to get from that is a rectangle which is easily accomplished by the rectangle tool or drawing three more lines.
There are other cases where tig's tool does more than that but you're saying it's too complex to add to the base tool?
Basically, I think you're saying to allow pushpull to draw rectangles and while that might be neat, I don't think it's going to be implemented or even necessary. -
@unknownuser said:
@bmike said:
vector push pull is very cool... but i think it would be a hard sell on packing all those options into a single ..
ok, so I'm confused then. Earlier you were saying that you want to pushpull a line. All you're going to get from that is a rectangle which is easily accomplished by the rectangle tool or drawing three more lines.
There are other cases where tig's tool does more than that but you're saying it's too complex to add to the base tool?
Basically, I think you're saying to allow pushpull to draw rectangles and while that might be neat, I don't think it's going to be implemented or even necessary.no, i'm not trying to argue.
someone posted about push/pull / extruding a line.
i understood this as pulling on and end point, dragging the line out into space.
i see now that we are hung up on 'extruding' a line into a sheet of surface.yes, if you were to 'extrude' a line you'd get a rectangle, and should just use that tool.
i'm not asking for this as a feature.
i understand how to get there, or to get a curved sheet by using vector push pull.
i was simply commenting on what i thought i read earlier.personally i'd like the tools left alone, with incremental improvements and options for layering on features that make sense for an individual workflow.
and yes, thomthom - exactly. a plug in directory / management system, along with a strict UI and coding standards guide so clicks and icons and workflow all follow similar logic. naturally there will be outliers to any official 'system' - but having 'certified' plugins and a central repository (maybe divided into categories - much like smartphone app stores).
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I'm not trying to argue either. I just think certain requests aren't being thought through to the end user. It's not as simple as adding more features while maintaining intuitive tools.
Back to bonzai on that note. Upon a fresh install, you're greeted with three different select tools. You have to select a select tool prior to selecting. What's up with that?
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@unknownuser said:
I just think certain requests aren't being thought through to the end user. It's not as simple as adding more features while maintaining intuitive tools.
+10000
Which is why i was so confused by the whole point of wanting to stack on functions to a pretty basic concept that is push pull.
Could it be smarter? Sure, as long as it remains intuitive to use. -
@thomthom said:
.....a Plugin Manager would let you browse and download plugins directly from SU. And of course update when updates are available. The Plugin Manager should be available as an one-click-installer.
Basically something like Dreamweaver's Extension Manager?
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On the topic of Plugin Management, I would really like a standard method in the Ruby Code by which, at a minimum, the ruby file name is displayed with a mouseover****or in a description dialog when the menu item is right-clicked.
If I can figure out (when editing a ruby) where the menu name is defined I try and append it with the ruby name, version level, and the author. For example, Nudge [Nudge.rb v2.1 Smustard]. Although the menus get messy (wide) I find it particularly useful when recommending scripts or for scripts that I may not use often.
Other useful info would be a link to a download source and link to help and parameter info and even link to author's email.
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@hieru said:
Basically something like Dreamweaver's Extension Manager?
Maybe, I've never used it.
Like Firefox's plugin manager.
Like Debian/Ubuntu's package manager. -
After reading the last posts i'm feeling like the bad guy in here...
Everyone's talking about what a great plataform for plugins Sketchup is, but a great plataform that can't display shadows properly, that don't have a something like a plugin manager, that has a API that doesn't seem to give enough acess to, for example, textures, or doesn't even support x64 or multicore technology, even if just to others benefict from? even after guys like Edwin Catmull saying that the future is in using parallel processing (and he's just the guy that was in the original team from Pixar(now president) and ILM and invented the catmull-clarck subdivision, but what does he know right?) or seeing others using this to enhance subdivision surface modeling? Sorry, but i still can't see this as a great platform...it's good, but not that good.
But this is useless, arguing now won't change nothing because more than enough users are happy with this way of "evolving", and in 2 years when SK9 is realeased it still won't have multicore/x64/use the current technology like opencl/better texture or modeling tools, but it will probably let us pushpull more than one face or doing something like subdivision 1 level (plus a lot more for google earth) and most will be more than happy with that, just like in 6, 7 and now 8.
I try to discussed this in a open and frank way with the "head of the SK team", with reviews and opinions and such, but he dodge all the "bullets", and gave us "pearls" like UV spherical beeing unnecessary or too complex or trying to sell COLLADA format as a more Standart format than obj (and i'm all in favor for collada but it's undeniable that obj it's widelly used), and still very few care, like everyone's afraid to say bad about the release. Before the end of this topic end, most probably the conclusion is that this was a great realease...
And for me SK it's like an hammer, i just used to do what an hammer is supost to do, the problem is that it's a wood hammer, like my grand parents had, that's heavy, making me more tire, that start's to hurt in time with all the wood splits, and sometimes the heavy metal head falls off making me trying to figure out ways to put it back. Now in the XXI century i just wanted a new hammer for doing the exact same things, but in aluminium to be lighter, with rubber to grab more comfortably, and with a smaller a more precise head. Instead i got my old hammer back, but with ductape and painted in other colour...I think right now this is the best analogy tha can be done between sketchup and a hammer.
I'm on old Sketchup user, but i think i'm no longer a user of the new Sketchup google wants, even if my goal is the same as ever and remember that SK was doing pretty well before google earth.
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@thomthom said:
Like Firefox's plugin manager.
Like Debian/Ubuntu's package manager.I haven't used those before, but I think I know what you are getting at and think it's a great suggestion - especially if (as you say) you could get notifications when a new version of a plugin becomes available.
The only problem I can see is getting all developers to agree to work through a centralised plugin repository.
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