Could SketchUp be transformed to a BIM or PEN System?
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@unknownuser said:
- There is a lot of "tail wagging dog" going on. That is, programs forcing the designer to do what is easy on the program.
Yes I quite agree, and more than this technical prowess can overshadow real creative achievement (something tangible rather than more general "creativity") - looks good must be good kind of thing.
@unknownuser said:
- To modify the program to your needs is a whole new and largely unanticipated project on top of existing projects.
Also agree and have suggested re-looking at the whole design/build/use/recycle process bearing in mind what technological advances have been made say since John Walker started Autodesk - Internet communication and software, 3D modelling, animation, file sharing and so on. Nearly two years ago I posted this short video which you may find interesting or disturbing.
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@edson said:
or, when they opt for mac, they not always produce competent stuff (i am here thinking of PowerCadd which could be an alternative but has lousy and insufficient documentation: not a single video or tutorial is to be found in their site).
I apologize for the ranting, guys.
Edson, PowerCADD has its own particular problems. I think its main problem is the primary developer. Otherwise, being a good 2d drawing program, there isn't much to tutor or make a video about, although third parties have made some attempt to fill in the gaps. The WildTools (extension) manual isn't bad. I used to do one-day introductions for PowerCADD and other than a few phone calls or emails, people usually took it from there themselves. PowerCADD just hasn't evolved a lot over the years, nor has their web presence or advertising. Now PowerCADD has a new export system that means you can simply copy and paste into 3D programs like Bonzai3d. It could work for SU too if a programmer wished to look into the apparently simple (xml) plug-in development. (And any other two programs with the plugin can also share)
Namesets is intriguing. I am reminded a bit of the Condoc system that was more of an attempt to augment and organize drawing data than a whole new approach. At present I just don't grasp very well, myself, how Namesets will translate into a design and communication medium, but I hope to see more.
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@pbacot said:
Namesets is intriguing. I am reminded a bit of the Condoc system that was more of an attempt to augment and organize drawing data than a whole new approach. At present I just don't grasp very well, myself, how Namesets will translate into a design and communication medium, but I hope to see more.
As inventor of Namesets I should perhaps offer to show you more but I'm a bit stuck at the moment for time (we are moving back to Hong Kong involving prefabrication, transport and long distance renovation initiation and supervision) and also stuck for normal Internet resources (the most useful being blocked). However my web site is still functioning so I am told, and I have also been told that "And then there is Operative Content" is my best shot at explaining Nameset design and functionality.
But also I would like to quote from Edson's web site which in my view is fundamental to this topic.
@unknownuser said:
Our studio aims at producing adequate and consistent architecture, related to the essence of its time and place. The notion of adequacy –or pertinence– is fundamental to us. In a period when there is no consensus as to what beauty and architectural quality should be, the only goal we can aspire to is the creation of adequate formal/spatial solutions to needs that require spatialization. Adequate form is that which synthesizes – by way of a formal structure that could be visually understood – the demands of the program, the suggestions of the place and the discipline of construction.
How different from mountains of Awesomeness-ness. Three additional points occur to me in respect of adequacy.
... in terms of compatibility an adequate solution is HTML and Javascript. Well not quite yet; it seems we need Sketchup in its current form until HTML 5 is matured. The sooner we get rid of the idea of proprietary software and treat it as a utility the better.
... adequacy of communications relate to both content and format. A beautiful render required (adequate) to sell the design is totally useless to the setter out who is quite happy with a few clear 2D lines and levels. But both should and can be generated separately from the same set of data.
... adequate competition is not lump sum competitive tendering nor any of its variants, but the result of deep and yes transparent interaction in an up-to-the-minute dynamic marketplace.
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I have become a little obsessed by the notion of adequacy and want to try and explain it, at least to myself. It seems to me that if all aspects of a project are adequate the project can be said to be excellent; and if one aspect of a project is more than adequate another must be less. Can that be true? Using "pertinent" in its stead, "The spaces are more than adequate but the cost is not pertinent to the budget."
But adequacy is the real test. There is no point judging adequacy with square foot allowances; it has to be tested using collections of models of real objects right from the beginning. For example, an office floor can be first represented by a number of workstation models; each model is tested for adequacy; then each grouping, then the whole floor including circulation and services and of course site restrictions. Very quickly, the assumed adequacy of square foot allowances is queried eventually (hopefully) to become extinct.
This kind of thinking lead me to pursue Namesets and Sketchup as BIM.
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I have seen references to "Rhino" on the forum in the past, but have never taken a serious look at the system. It seems they are working on modules for BIM-like functionality and have released one module for structural work. I saw their display at the AIA convention in Miami last week but didn't have time to look into it and their display was rather confusing with all the "Zoo" references for their multiple modules- I found it to be a bit overcomplicated and put-offish.
I did get to talk a bit with Rich Hart from Render Plus who was sharing the Rhino booth area.
Anyone have any recent experience with Rhino with the BIM slant? I just wonder if there is something to be learned that might transfere to GSU
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I think you'd also need to focus in on what the target is - BIM for what? Houses? Hospitals? Airports? Commercial mixed use / retail? They all have their own special languages...
And while I'd agree that many technologies and processes can scale - the language of the residential builder is vastly different from that of the commercial developer / project manager. Essentially one needs to codify a language for the process of communicating what you want built - and its huge in terms of scope when looking at how to create a generic system that could work for multiple projects / types / scales. Add in software guys who most likely have never swung a hammer or climbed scaffold - and you create several translation problems - the first being codifying the language of building so that most folks agree on what the heck you are talking about, the second getting the programmers to understand how this should work in software' the third getting the software to be logical and referential to 'the real world', and fourth - getting the end user (designer, builder, architect, engineer, etc.) to understand how to make the software go - without having to adjust or adapt problems from the real world to fit in the box the software painted you into.
The software cycle is pretty quick - buildings (should) last a long long time. The language of building has been morphed from that of master builders into professional categories and subdivisions and specialties from the architect on down through the mechanical contractors and the day laborer carrying the concrete forms to the hole from the truck.
In the end, its about the building.
Tools continue to change. And with the fast cycle of software - it seems that the tools may always be lacking when trying to virtually control all the aspects of building in a physical world.And in regards to 'adequacy' - I'd rather be effective than efficient than adequate any day.
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@bmike said:
And in regards to 'adequacy' - I'd rather be effective than efficient than adequate any day.
Just on the last part as it is near time for bed.
That was my first thought ... yes effective and and efficient seem better words ... but how do you test them. Adequate is capable of reasonably simple and objective empirical analysis and could perhaps become as acceptable as "just in time"... which prior to 7-Eleven I remember would have been viewed with derision.
Goodnight.
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Sorry to jump in so late on this, but I overlooked it thinking perhaps it was another "we wish SketchUp could" topic.
Instead I find an excellent dialogue.
So to actually accomplish what you are discussing, what would be necessary. Is SketchUp really only a collection of faces and edges, which in essence is mathematical representation of a 3D object.
If this object is a wall, how could you enter all the data that is necessary simplistically enough to mirror the SketchUp user friendliness, so that this data could be extracted by anyone using the same software to apply the information to their discipline?
This is a big undertaking, needing to codify everything from its position and location on the planet to the data needed to understand, quantify, and cost out etc, all the properties of this wall.
So would I still be able to paint a texture on this wall, or would there have to be a whole new library of materials that have embedded the information of the make-up of the materials.
Does this mean that every time I do something a dialogue box appears with blanks for me to fill in? If so would this take away from the SketchUp ease of use? If not where is this information coming from?
What would the nuts and bolts actually be?
This is a very big topic, and a very interesting discussion. -
@bmike said:
I think you'd also need to focus in on what the target is - BIM for what? Houses? Hospitals? Airports? Commercial mixed use / retail? They all have their own special languages...
A long time I talked to a professor about Boeing's use of solid 3D engineering to design and manufacture their Boeing 777. Here's an extract from Wikipedia's article:
@unknownuser said:
The 777 was the first commercial aircraft to be designed entirely on computer.[18][24] Each design drawing was created on a three-dimensional CAD software system known as CATIA, sourced from Dassault Systemes and IBM.[31] This allowed a virtual aircraft to be assembled, in simulation, to check for interferences and to verify proper fit of the many thousands of parts, thus reducing costly rework.[32] Boeing developed their own high performance visualization system, FlyThru, later called IVT (Integrated Visualization Tool) to support large scale collaborative engineering design reviews, production illustrations, and other uses of the CAD data outside of engineering. [33] IVT is still active at Boeing in 2010 with over 29,000 users. Boeing was initially not convinced of the program's abilities and built a physical mock-up of the nose section to verify the results. The test was so successful that additional mock-ups were cancelled.[34]
The prof said he had discussed it with his post grads in relation to the building industry but they concluded the parties involved were just too diverse. This idea still persists bolstered by the industry's self interested conservatism. Despite technological advances today's contract documents are really not so different to those I made in the 1970's for chrissake.
What actually allows these interests to meet are the physical elements of the building. The labourer collecting the forms, engineer calculating rebar, buyer purchasing concrete, all in part derive their living from a single object of interest like a column.
So if using the name of one of the projects you mention you can immediately access lists of things you need to consider, then use these to get more until you have a suitable hierarchy to identify and locate purchasable objects you will quite quickly assemble a model of the project made entirely of words - an associative index if you like to access information about what each word represents and a means to assemble a model ... or the real thing. (SU-wise the information can include component file name and transformation)
@bmike said:
... Essentially one needs to codify a language for the process of communicating what you want built - and its huge in terms of scope when looking at how to create a generic system that could work for multiple projects / types / scales.
I think when you make a scheme based on physical objects language difficulties are much reduced. The names of such objects live in hierarchies and have SU models to support them so, for example, there might be a sofa, coffee table and TV collected together under "Living room" or beams, columns and slabs under "Structure". Yes it is huge but this is not about a single software company but an ISP type means to collect experience and redistribute it, a bit like file sharing (where the index is a glorified playlist). It is a scheme that could be started on a single project with demonstrated benefits of consensual advertising encouraging it to evolve.
@bmike said:
Add in software guys ...
All software guys need to do is to provide a simple Internet enabled "machine" (see static example in scrapbook linked below) to build the animated hierarchies of names from lists from industry-biased digital markets, and to set and retrieve plain text records.
I don't know if this is a satisfactory response to your thoughtful post. But whilst the idea is simple I tend to rave on a bit ... so I will stop here for now.
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@dale said:
So to actually accomplish what you are discussing, what would be necessary.
Some professional to make the nameset machine from my performance specification/amateur coding.
A design firm willing to help run a trial project in parallel with their normal routine.
Models of products to be used in the trial project.
Funding for the machine, trial and models.
@dale said:
If this object is a wall, how could you enter all the data that is necessary simplistically enough to mirror the SketchUp user friendliness, so that this data could be extracted by anyone using the same software to apply the information to their discipline?
One of the principle functions of the machine and its devices is to reuse names, so that input is minimised. Even when used unique values are added as new prompts/options.
I find the prototype machine does not interfere with the Sketchup interface; in fact because of its small size and its ability to turn components on and off in different combinations, it makes scene making much less complicated and uncluttered than messing about with the layer inspector and outliner. It also uses observers so even now you can manipulate models directly or with the machine.
The machine and devices are made with html and javascript. Imported prompt/options and project records are stored in plain text. I believe this is about as interoperable as you can currently get.
@dale said:
This is a big undertaking, needing to codify everything from its position and location on the planet to the data needed to understand, quantify, and cost out etc, all the properties of this wall.
Every product whether made in a factory or on site would come with its own machine manipulable datasheet. For example, say there is a one brick wall component that is 1m x 1m. Its plain text datasheet details brick reference, dims, cost, delivery terms, mortar allowances and so forth. These would be part of the minimum registration requirement.
This type of component would be automatically made unique and sized and positioned manually or with machine devices that also enable setting design criteria.@dale said:
So would I still be able to paint a texture on this wall, or would there have to be a whole new library of materials that have embedded the information of the make-up of the materials.
I don't think presentation type things like textures need be affected, but in my view it would be best if manufacturers realistically textured their own models. This of course raises the question of modelling disciplines, file sizes and so on, which I think can wait.
@dale said:
This is a very big topic ...
It is but it can start small as I wrote above. Machines will be freely available, with storage of records determined by the machine owner. I haven't thought too deeply about the registries but I am sure there are better people than me to look after that. The main point is that this is a scheme that widely distributes the burden of compiling small amounts of data.
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It appear to me that many are wishing they could assign properties to SU objects so they later use that for documentation. Is there really no such tool out there already?
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@thomthom said:
@linea said:
... but I spent all day yesterday cutting holes for windows.
I got a plugin in the workings, which enables a cut-out component to cut through two faces. That should make things easier in terms on placing objects inside "thick walls".
Thom, apart from Hank's mystery plugin, did you finish your plugin mentioned here? It sound like just what I need right now.
@Edson, have you looked at HighDesign at all? HD is parametric (or that's what they say)
Very interesting thread btw. There are too many good threads on SCF, but I'll get in trouble with the wife if I read them all!
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@tfdesign said:
Thom, apart from Hank's mystery plugin, did you finish your plugin mentioned here? It sound like just what I need right now.
No - Due to critical bugs in SU's Observer APIs I have been unable to realise it. But, SU8 fixed many observer issues - so there is a possibility that the project could be resumed.
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Excellent Thom. I look forward to using it.
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Anyone interested in some more BIM discussion?
Please check out my topic:
http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?f=180&t=34007- jan
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I'll take a bold step forward and suggest all the BIM gurus on this forum to try out SketchUpBIM. More information here: http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?f=323&t=41840
My friends and I have written it over the past few months. The intention is to provide tools to create intelligent building elements (like beams, columns, slabs etc) inside SketchUp. And the goal is to keep it simple (just like SketchUp itself), while also trying to mimic the accepted process-flows in widely accepted BIM products like Revit and ArchiCAD.
check it out; i'll love to hear feedback!
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This is a really interesting topic. Here is our list relating to SU and BIM: http://www.sketchup2bim.com Please let us know if you have any suggestions for further inclusions. Thanks.
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Hi,
I would love to hear what you think about what I am doing with SketchUp for construction drawings:
Also check out my gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/sketchupireland/ViewsionAspireArchitecturePortfolioDrawings?feat=directlink
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You guys might want to check out this thread,
Parametric Building Modeler Plugin
http://forums.sketchucation.com/viewtopic.php?f=265&t=44766&start=0
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