@frederik said:

To me the ideal plugin shop would be one, where I would need to pay an "entrance fee" and for this fee I'd get some credits which I could use to pay for the plugins I download...
Again I feel the plugin should then only cost between 1-2 EUR...
The plugins that are worth more, are already commercial, which is a different ball game...
When my credits are used, I can buy additional credits...
This way all authors would get rewarded for the precious time they spend making these gems...

Frederik, that is a lovely idea -- hopefully one that can be implemented somehow.

I had purchased a handful of commercial plugins (from Smustard) a few years back -- but then decided to hold off on purchasing more in light of how SketchUp was developing.

Likewise, I was on track to begin supporting my favorite free plugin authors (via donations) when news of the Trimble acquisition broke. Shortly thereafter came the final decision (on my part) to leave SketchUp behind (due to conversations had with "darling")... once I made that decision I uninstalled all non-commercial plugins from my system and began downloading demos/betas from competing software companies.

So I have not used any "free" plugins for awhile now... and I've barely used SketchUp in that time. Examples of commercial plugins I passed up due to this situation are Artisan(I already own SS), SketchUV, Vertex Tools, Instant Roof, Instant Fence and Railing, Tgi3D Amorph... and a couple more I can't remember right now.

So in a real sense plugin authors have already lost money as a result of the decisions made by "darling" -- even if I am only one person.

I most definitely appreciate the value added by the free plugin authors, but it is simply not enough for me to justify the cost of SketchUp... and commercial plugins only add to that cost.

If I were a non-commercial user of "Make" (ugh) then the situation would be entirely different.

Best,
Jason.

First off -- it isn't an improvement because you haven't seen it... and you may very well never see it. It would not be the first time he's shown alot of interest in an idea that never materializes.

Secondly, my point was really about the low bar users have set for the software -- the level of accountability this team is being held to is shamefully low. If that appears as whining to you then you have misread my position.

My expectations are that SketchUp fairly compete for my money... yours seem to be alot lower than that. If my position is unrealistic, then yours is the position of a victim of Stockholm syndrome.

But I have realized I wandered into the wrong thread, so I'll take my leave.

Best,
Jason.

That would be a Rip Van Winkle level sleep.

The other companies aren't going to stand still while SketchUp tries to catch up -- they will be busy with the next round of innovations we can't have.

Best,
Jason.

Wow, so "darling" had the awesome inspiration to have user defined custom workspaces -- what a brilliant idea, so far ahead of it's time!

Oh, except for the fact I've already been using custom workspaces in most of my other software for the better part of a decade.

I'm always amazed at how the expectations are so low here that old commonplace ideas are treated as great innovations by the user base...

Of course we should have custom workspaces -- but we should have had them when they were a new idea. Now it's just another example of SketchUp trying to catch up to the rest of the software world.

Wake me when they get there.

Best,
Jason.

@juanv.soler said:

Ok , but what has happened as to have the complete silence we have today ?

What an excellent question. Not that I think their presence would result in any real changes, but personally I suspect a Trimble ordered blackout. It's pretty obvious they are trying to build their own community the "Trimble-way"... which is great as long as everybody thinks like a good little SketchUp zombie. A person like me would most definitely not be welcome -- but they'll still take my money!

@juanv.soler said:

[
In any case I still cannot see any advantage in your proposal for trying other softwares
I keep thinking the best would be to improve relationships .

There are 2 parts to that -- big companies only respect one thing: profit and loss. By removing money from their bottom line you are speaking in a language they understand. Secondly, many users actually have little understanding of the options currently available -- a better understanding would likely result in alot more people being vocally irrate with the product Trimble is releasing.

As far as improving relationships, it takes two to tango -- if your dance partner doesn't want to play along what can you do?

Best,
Jason.

@juanv.soler said:

I am no thinking that way . What I say is that the gap should be shortened .
I have no idea what has happened for you to say that SketchUcation Community has been badly treated .
But your saying brings the good path to explain and talk . Please go ahead .

I'm not just talking about SketchUcation, but we are here on SketchUcation, and the fact remains that this has been the de facto home of the SketchUp community since the @last forum was shut down.

I think Jeff outlined pretty well why I think the community has been poorly treated a few posts back... bait-and-switch tactics, promising a voice to the users, only to dismiss outright whatever they cannot argue away.

Have you ever seen a SketchUp or Trimble banner ad here? That alone tells you alot...

Best,
Jason.

@juanv.soler said:

I think that the best tactic to enforce change would be to close the gap between Trimble SketchUp Team

If you think that "gap" is coming from the side of the community than you are very mistaken... If anything the community is far too forgiving of how they are being treated.

I've been talking about it for years -- with no results. The time for talking is rapidly expiring -- my wallet will be talking for me.

Best,
Jason.

Who exactly is to blame for that?

Trimble.

If you are saying that we paying users have no right to complain when the company we are supporting financially is severely underperforming, then I would have to disagree.

However, I will say that you are correct. The best tactic to enforce change is to financially support a SketchUp competitor instead... which is exactly what I will do.

Best,
Jason.

I definitely sympathize with the need to update based on Layout and teaching needs -- this was where I was with v8. It's an unfortunate reality that many will be forced to "update" and therefore send the message that everything is OK to Trimble -- a message that they may not actually agree with.

Free vs Pro... I've offended people on every side of this debate over the years. From my POV it is not reasonable to expect the software to improve without financially supporting it. Since I definitely want the software to improve, I think Pro only for all update features is the way forward.

However that came with a caveat, the new Pro would have to be such a clear upgrade that users would have no issue with parting with the money to move up. Looking at the situation now I'm not sure that is a feasible suggestion. It seems major updates to the SketchUp proper part of Pro are not forthcoming... and if they do appear they will likely be in the form of Trimble made Ruby+C extensions (at additional cost).

IMO this is not a good value for the user.

What I see happening now is Trimble attempting to make SketchUp appear to have more value to the marketplace by "adding" the (already long available elsewhere) free plugins to the package and calling that an upgrade. As if they are somehow responsible for the time and hard work the 3rd party coders have put in, and can take credit for it.

The problem is they may very well get away with it as long as the 3rd party developers let them by actually using the Extensions Warehouse. Of course I'm not in any position to say how the plugin developers should do things -- but I can say I would be very wary.

The public perception is "Hey Trimble is giving away all this free stuff so the cost of Pro isn't so bad". Just look at the Extension Warehouse with a clear eye -- does it say clearly anywhere that the plugins are not made by Trimble? I can't find that without looking very deep into the website. A user who is not experienced with such things is not going to have a clear understanding that Trimble is not financing these in some way. The implied impression is one that heavily benefits Trimble and the SketchUp team -- whereas the reality is that SketchUcation has done more to support these developers over the years than SketchUp itself has... however we see no mention of that anywhere.

To me this is a spit in the eye of the community and a clear attempt at hijacking alot of time and hard work for Trimble's benefit. This will become only more so when the commercial Trimble "bolt-on's" appear -- at which point the free plugins become loss leaders for drawing in the users.

If the extensions warehouse clearly stated on the main page that anything not made by the SketchUp team is a completely separate entity from Trimble, and required separate financial support (via donations), then I would be alot less skeptical. However, as it stands the uneducated user is left to attempt to discern these facts for themselves... rather murky don't you think?

If I were a developer I would only put commercial plugins on the Extensions Warehouse... if that.

Best,
Jason.

@unknownuser said:

for me on the mac vs pc thing is that when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter at all..

I mean, do you have good ideas or don't you? if you have good ideas then you're going to get them out there regardless of which OS is being used.

we've seen plenty of great work produced on windows machines and plenty of great work produced on mac.

the same person drawing a pile of crap on macSU will produce an equal steaming heap on windowsPC.

That's about as perfect of a way to say it as I've ever heard

Of course I guess this explains why it doesn't matter if the SketchUp team uses Mac... the machine does not make you better at your job

Best,
Jason.

I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts on Rhino's layout type tools once you've had some time with them...

As much as I like (and see the potential of) those aspects of these programs, for me modeling power is the bottom line -- nice presentations I can brute force in 2D apps, because I do them so rarely.

I am pretty far afield of the Trimble target audience and I think that will only become more true as time goes by -- Modo has nothing like this, but I honestly doubt I will miss it much for my work.

On the Mac vs PC thing, at one point in time I used both regularly for graphic design... so I stopped caring about the differences and just used whatever was the best value. If I got a good deal on a Mac I'd use it -- but those seem hard to find.

Best,
Jason.

@arail1 said:

Maybe it's because my 2D presentations are done in AutoCAD LT and the weak point of my workflow is 3D dimensions that I don't see the excitement about LO.

That would come down to 2 things -- the fact that AutoCAD is an Autodesk product, and price.

Of course Trimble is rapidly moving SketchUp/Layout in the same direction -- so it may not make any difference soon. At which point people will choose based on actual features offered.

BTW, feature-wise AutoCAD LT is missing some of the things in Layout that make presentations so nice... like the perspective views and rendering (that are also missing in form.z).

Best,
Jason.

@bmike said:

i don't doubt that there are better modelers out there... just need a good presentation tool too.
rhino can?
formz - maybe in time?

For those nice presentations you are going to be somewhat disappointed by your options outside of SketchUp/Layout.

Currently in form.z the missing ingredient is the perspective views and SketchUp (rendered) Styles. By that I mean all the dimensioning/notation functionality is in place, and floor plans and such are easy to do -- but those nice presentation "detail shots" would have to be brought in as images... which defeats alot of the purpose (this is why I refer to Layout as a perfect render engine for SketchUp Styles).

I imagine many people would adopt Layout if they didn't have to work in SketchUp (and they knew it existed).

Best,
Jason.

@unknownuser said:

i do know that in rhino, it would be as if layout&sketchup were one app instead of two.. that alone gets a from me.

This is pretty much true for form.z as well -- which I also like.

One thing I would remind anybody who is looking into form.z is that the Layout features are still a WIP -- a good example of this is the fact that you don't have the ability to use regular colors/materials right now (only color via hatches/fills and lines). Which could work fine for construction drawings, but will likely not be the best for snazzy presentations.

Here's a direct link to the form.z Layout feature documentation: http://www.formz.com/manuals/formz7/!SSL!/WebHelp/03021_Layout.html

My advice would be to download the demo, use it for a while, and then drop by their forum to let them know what features you want added... you'll be surprised by how easy they are to work with.

That said, Layout (for presentations) remains the one redeeming quality of updating SketchUp 9 Pro at this point.

Best,
Jason.

@unknownuser said:

nah.. it's cool.. it's always a bit of fun trolling people that can't afford a real computer

No lie, I just laughed out loud for at least 30 seconds... that may be the funniest thing I've seen in a long while.

Best,
Jason.

Wow Dan, I thought I was throwing out some bombs -- but you just set some demolition charges

Best,
Jason.

@frederik said:

2.) Trimble have decided only to focus on their own community and abandon all third party SketchUp communities...
(but it's going to be tough to ignore a community like SCF ...)

I would say that this would be the primary culprit. They cannot control or spin very successfully here because they are on equal footing with the users... not a position that works to their advantage.

But even so, I think talk from their side is pointless anyway -- they need to show progress, not talk about it.

They've got enough bug reports and wish lists backlogged to keep them busy for the next several years -- so there is no need for us to go through another pointless "voting" debacle either. Which was just a thinly veiled attempt at placating the user base after the v8 release was such a dud... I never imagined v9 would be even worse, I sincerely thought that was impossible.

I've got the new tagline:
SketchUp. Setting new standards for mediocrity in update releases with each version!

Best,
Jason.

@mike amos said:

The only time I had any communication with John he came across as a thoroughly decent bloke who was patiently trying to tell me how and why I was wrong.

I agree with your entire post -- but this line is particular is so typical of "darling", I couldn't help but smile at the absurdity of it all.

If he's got time and energy to explain why we are all "wrong", then you would assume his software is already a sterling example of performance and stability... right???

Best,
Jason.

@chicos said:

I created an account here at sketchucation just so I could bitch! let me start with a brief synopsis of my feelings: Sketchup 2013 is a complete embarrassment and a disaster! Almost 3 years and this is what we get? Its not like version 8 was specimen of ambitious software development. Just look at the features that Trimble is touting for this release: numbered pages, dashes in dimensions, copy array in LO, curved leader lines, video export . . . holy cow dung I would be embarrassed to put that in my list of improvements, let alone 5 of 11. Even the big ones are let downs: extension warehouse is nice but merely simplifies functionality I already had and Pattern fills as far as I can tell are just added textures. Supposedly speed in layout is improved, but I may never know if I decide to switch to FormZ. Whats $1000 after you blow $95 on the biggest letdown in recent memory.

-chico

Hey Chico, welcome aboard -- there's always room for one more

As I said earlier in the thread, if they separated Layout from SketchUp I would update that right now... but it would have to be less than half the cost. The SketchUp side of things is just pathetically sad... and I too would be embarrassed to release that.

BTW, it is somewhat difficult to find on their website, but here is a comparison chart of current bonzai3d and form.z features: http://www.formz.com/featureslist/FeatureComparisonChart.html

As you can see by the chart, bonzai3d is very comparable with SketchUp, with some additional modeling power (no layout, but $100 less) -- whereas form.z adds alot of really nice capabilities for the extra money. The UI between the two software is essentially identical, with form.z even having a bonzai3d workspace.

Best,
Jason.

Do bear in mind though that there are two separate parties I am criticising -- Trimble and "darling"... and I do keep them separate in my mind.

My gripes at Trimble (corporate) all have to do with bad licensing/naming/etc. decisions... These are things I can't really hold "darling" accountable for.

On the other hand, the development buck stops at him (as the lead) -- I think he can do much better, and I think he should do much better -- whether he will is the question.

Best,
Jason.