actually i don't feel like i am interested to make more lines with this topic.
but, after reading some replies. i'd like to say a little more. but i doubt i can make it even half of the idea of communicating. let alone to reach understanding with my foreign language capabilities. i don't think to write in my own language would be a better idea either. so here we go again. although this is "pointless from the beginning". since no one here really are scientist in physics, philosophy, or any field of science. but just some of people who read some writings.

@alan fraser said:

And BTW quoting Tesla is pointless. Not seeing electricity is not remotely the same as not seeing God. Typical priestly deviousness. You can see electricity in action. It's results are entirely predictable and its mechanism perfectly understood. To say the same about God you'd have to be able to pray for a new car and get one, or pray for the recovery of a sick loved one and see them get better...every time...Poof! just like that...cause and effect.

now that would be a tool i'd like to have. just do anything that i want it to do.

• god otherwise is not one of those things you can call a tool or plugin. that you may program it to do whatever you wish. what you wanted and described there is a tool.
  to fulfill your needs and desires. god is not something that do whatever you wish him to do. if your father who lives overseas doesn't give you what you want, does that mean he doesn't exist? cause and effect? what about x-factor or any anomalies scientist admit? entirely predictable and perfectly understood mechanism?
• say, if a tool or "plugin" doesn't gives us a result as it's expected to have, based on predictable mechanism perfectly understood, we should as good as just dump it. don't even think to have it tested again. to do more evaluation or research. it's just failed. drop it dead. no need for debugging.

common argument we'll see from those so called atheist usually.
their disappointment of god, and probably their religious teachers and leaders.

• everything is material. can be measured, qualify and quantify.
  quantify your soul. does it really there? qualify and quantify your mind, your feeling, etc. then. next you'll be saying manifestation of it. "electricity in action.." i can see god in action too if you say that. as if you are saying any government "is just fact that it is there merely exist" popping out of nowhere and running by itself.
  if you tell me that a stone, element, planet or nuclear cores just popped out of nowhere, you are just like talking bs. the same way if i told you that i just got a car or a planet came out of nowhere for me in front of my door. even with infinite time were given for that thing to be.

so, whether you like it or not. atheist do have gods. those are science, materials, and their own desires and limits combined at least. those things seems responsible that drives atheist lives.

@alan fraser said:

... the universe doesn't require anything other than the fact that it is.

i agree

where did you get those people images? are those just images imported or components already?

so many versions in one page? is this free and not to difficult to learn for beginners?
if i may ask. which one is good for beginners to download, please?

@unknownuser said:

... the tao which is basically what all other religions are built upon..

how did you come with that conclusion? all other religions?

about those things. living or not. they do or response to their surrounding. with certain kind of laws or orders. i agree on that since the beginning. until today, i've never heard anything like a bee pursuing a degree in architecture or PhD in physics. even if they've been doing that "hives building" since thousands or millions of years ago, they're going nowhere else with that. so they just got some kind of that "blueprints" implanted in their being. they just do what they've "told" to do.

and the main difference between us human and those other things is most probably our high "free will" and "mental" capabilities combined.

then, yes it seems we've come onto some sort of agreement there.
that there is "something" beyond all of these. you may call it mother nature, father nature, the jedi knight's force, tao, or whatever that is.
since i don't know and don't have any proof of what gender that "thing" would be, i might stick to know "it" by god.

@unknownuser said:

Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)

@unknownuser said:

one of the problems with religion, as i see it, is that it's an attempt to describe what isn't know to us..

i don't know about electricity, nuclear things either. let alone cosmology. but that doesn't make me not to believe that electricity or nuclear things do exist.

@unknownuser said:

.. and i think the reason why everyone locks onto god so hard is that it explains what happens after death.. death being the single greatest fear humans experience..

i might have different opinion or feeling towards that matter. since every living thing will eventually die. but falling from a cliff i might fear of. because there should be options before every possibilities to choose.

@unknownuser said:

but just look at our history.. there used to be a god for all sorts of stuff that was unexplainable at the time..
thunder? oh, that's a god
rain? a god
fire? yep.. a god too
plus all sorts of other gods to explain our emotions and various other elements of nature..

i have a little thing about that. you might consider it as just fairy tales, myths, etc. or you can give it a little thought.

@unknownuser said:

Thus did We show Abraham the kingdom of the heavens and the earth that he might be of those possessing certainty: (75) When the night grew dark upon him he beheld a star. He said: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: I love not things that set. (76) And when he saw the moon uprising, he exclaimed: This is my Lord. But when it set, he said: Unless my Lord guide me, I surely shall become one of the folk who are astray. (77) And when he saw the sun uprising, he cried: This is my Lord! This is greater! And when it set he exclaimed: O my people! Lo! I am free from all that ye associate (with Him). (78) Lo! I have turned my face toward Him Who created the heavens and the earth, as one by nature upright, and I am not of the idolaters. (79) His people argued with him. He said: Dispute ye with me concerning Allah when He hath guided me? I fear not at all that which ye set up beside Him unless my Lord willeth aught. My Lord includeth all things in His knowledge. Will ye not then remember? (80) How should I fear that which ye set up beside Him, when ye fear not to set up beside Allah that for which He hath revealed unto you no warrant? Which of the two factions hath more right to safety? (Answer me that) if ye have knowledge. (81)

@unknownuser said:

and you'll sit on your death bed feeling all comfy (but in reality, you're still going to be scared shitless as the doubt creeps in), then you'll die, then — well, i don't know what happens then.. no one does and believe it or not, it's ok for you to admit that.

yes, i know that too. as a matter of fact, i don't think i need more complicated explanation for that. since i have a bunch of notes on that matter. here are a few of them.

@unknownuser said:

Every soul will taste of death. Then unto Us ye will be returned. (57)

@unknownuser said:

Say (unto them): Lo! the death from which ye shrink will surely meet you, and afterward ye will be returned unto the Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, and He will tell you what ye used to do. (8)

@unknownuser said:

Say: Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing, and then ye dwell in comfort but a little while. (16)

@unknownuser said:

The Laws of Physics were synonymous with The Laws of nature or The Laws of God. The word Law itself (which has its origins in the old Norse word meaning that which is layed down...as in layer) presupposes that there is something or someone doing the lawmaking.

i may used the "law" or "order" words here, because we're trying to speak the same language. that is english. if i am speaking in my native language, i don't even have to mention "law" or "order". not even once. i think whether the "law" was derived from Norse word or else, doesn't count into my thought. we might have very distinctive differences on terms of meaning, root or definition of words. english doesn't mean "everything" to me. even though i was an anglophile or sort of a little.

in my culture, especially language we probably adapt "wise", "path" or "way". like wise itself. clockwise, certain order of path, etc.

and finally,
since now i am back to my last conclusion (once again). that we're talking everything with different Operating System (that's why i didn't pay much attention to this thread for a while), i'll let you do the discussion the way your Operating System told you to do.

have a good time with your beloved ones in your holidays.

cheers,

there is a saying considering of details and the main ideas.

@unknownuser said:

"... don't let yourself lost in those many small mouse paths. you'll end up losing the main road..."

and yet, some ancient men might even be wiser than those of any nowadays technical and details lovers.

@unknownuser said:

" Yet there is God, though not perhaps the simple and human god conceived by the forgivable anthropomorphism of the adolescent mind..." (Aristotle).

Jeff, i did mention in my previous post. not the one above. that even god said (as i believe) it takes phases. thus also time.
if there is a hocus pocus pop out, i believe everything might collide to each other.
and about those on going phenomenons, none of them runs without certain laws. i.e. physics for instance. in certain orders.
i could imagine how would we be in a van full of people running wildly in 500 km/h, on a long winding road. no need for very sharp curves to give the idea.

how do those entity "know" what they are doing? do they? so Descartes "cogito ergo sum" may imply to them also? and then they all get on an "agreement" on some coherent and inherent such of laws? on any level from core atomic to bigger macro systemic?

here's the simple non sense for me; a few people may not come to an agreement for simple things. with all their intelligence, free will, etc. what if those "things" have the same free will with their own minds? only one thing left for sure. that there is "something" managing all to make them works integrally and comprehensively perfect. without unnecessary collision.

pardon my english.

i'll try to learn and use this one too. IA.
thank you Fredo

that's why it doesn't make sense at all for me, if anyone says that "the universe" made itself by it's own will and effort. no matter how long the process it will take.
i am willing to give anyone a chance to show me, if those pc components (motherboard, processor, ram, etc.) are able to build itself by it's own. say, infinite time would be enough?
if there is anyone who can prove that, i might consider to reevaluate my opinion.
until then, i'll stick to my current conclusion. that there is god. and he creates anything that he wants to.

have a good time in your holidays people.
cheers.

"what if i tell you"
that my pc just built up itself by it's own will. after a big crash.
so, now i can enjoy the warmth of this forum's rooms, and the cool people of this forum again.
it's not that hard or a big deal for a so "far behind" simple pc to build itself over and again. compared to the whole complex system of universe, i guess

intermezzo

i see. thank you Dave.
well, 10 bucks in a 3rd world country wont be easy to get.
meanwhile, i guess i'll just stick to Curviloft. it needs some wireframing to do and it does do it's job very well for skinning

@ktkoh said:

The BooTools works very well I think it was 10 bucks but well worth the money. It edits the selected component however it deletes the component used to do the editing so if you want both after the operation make a copy of the cutting component. I use it with the free version and have been very plesed

Keith

which free version and where, Keith?

a masterpiece.
have a good time with your family, david.

sorry, Dave.
i think i misunderstand what he meant. thought that was modelling and to make the real thing later. thought the fabric was to make the model looks like it have been hand carved.
i cannot erase my post above though. i don't know where the erase button is right now.

here are some other's opinions on that matter

Americans left Iraq?

not to mention about the new complete chaos of sectarians clashes, etc.

@utiler said:

They got what they wanted, Mike.

OIL.

To me it's as obvious as the nose on your face....

i second that. oil and arms industries products wholesale at least.
so much money invested in arms industries. they need to sell them.
a peaceful world wouldn't be in their first lines of preferences list.
oil obviously what makes industries still running and alive.
either way, they all come to a simple conclusion.
profitable things in capitalistic point of view. etc.

for some reason, i think even though the US didn't come to europe i do believe european eventually will get what they'd wanted by themselves. most of the critical operations were done by British commandos quite well. as far as i know, the British commando known as SAS today still remains being the prototype for other special or elite troops forces development.
here's a simple word of it; none of those special or elite forces but mostly developed based on the British commando/SAS. not even navy seals or whatever that is.
(edit) and no operation will succeed if the British weren't there first behind enemy lines doing their things in their special ops.
even the OSS before it becomes CIA was developed by sending operatives to learn from the British.

have a good time with your beloved ones in your holidays, david.

as if it is a traditional hand carved wood meubelier or furniture?
like these?

@dave r said:

I think it is similar to the Solid Tools. You should give it a try.

it seems that OSCoolean is a good tool. though it doesn't really work well when i tried to use it. perhaps it needs some updates or something. i don't know for sure.