Well after seeing the new update for sketchup, reading the release notes and seeing the highlights of this release (Place models underwater in Google Earth; More accurate model placement in Google Earth; Authorizing Pro is easier) there's no more Mr. Nice Guy!! i just wish the sketchup team listen to this (hope i don't offend anyone by my language):

• PRO USERS COULDN'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT GOOGLE EARTH INTEGRATION!!
  (if we have to choose between fixing the damn tolbars bug, shadow bug, exporter bug, offset bug and so on against google earth integration guess what we're going to choose?!?)

• 6 YEARS TO FIX KNOWN BUGS IS TOO MUCH TIME!!
  (even Ghandi wouldn't have patience to wait for you to fix something as the toolbars bug...in six years a completly new sketchup could be rewriten)

• WE (USERS) AREN'T STUPID!!
  (next time you give interviews telling us that multicore or 64 bits wouldn't make gain much time right now, remember you have users that use other 3D software and know basic stuff of what can and can not be done, and how in hell a multicore or having more ram available isn't at least going to help in exporting, intersect calculations and so on?!?)

• FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WAKE UP!!
  (in SK6 or 5 you removed the layer toolbar and replace it for a window, making you receive so much complaints that you put it back again in the maintenace release, now we have this component browser?! At least try the workflows in you're own software...if possible in something more than Google Earth Cubes or Playgrounds)

Feel free to disagree or agree with me because i would like to see if i'm the only one who thinks like this or not. I would also like to see anyone from the SK Team awswer to this post (you have one of the best and most suportive user base out there and still you can't talk to us...just make anouncements)

I know remus but indigo is 64 bits. My bridge project i couldn't render it with indigo because i could export it from sketchup but when indigo opened it gave me an error relating to memory. I doubt that would hapen in a 64 bits version. But then again i'm no expert...

i don't think so kwistenbiebel. Sketchup it's a native 32 bits aplication, so when it exports the exporter itself still runs using one core so no speed gain in there but as he's temporary wrinting on memory, because a 64bits OS still have more memory available that 3.3Gg ram of a 32bits OS, it's a litle hard for you to get an error of out of memory in the 3d export (don't forget of course this using a 64 bits version of indigo).

Of course i'm no coder so i could be just wrong...anyone who know's this better feel free to correct me.

David

jim_tim

Glad i could help . Keep in mind that when learning you will loose a lot of time in tests but the good thing i can tell you is that in the end you will be able to set up a scene pretty fast (especialy because you will start making a material library as time goes by), but i won't lie there will ALWAYS be some testing. So my best advice is saving each test (even if just a material change) you did with a name that's recogniseble now so that you can see the diferences in the materials, lights, renders methods, in this tests and understand what you want and don't want.

kwistenbiebel and remus

What you're saying is correct but i remember some users in the indigo forum saying that when they had to export a heavy model they had exported from a pc with a linux 64 or xp 64 bits and it worked. Why does this work? i have no ideia and never tried this so i can't really confirm it too, but there must be because windows have more memory available to write.

Hi jim_tim

First you have to keep in mind, about this subject, 2 things: Normally it's not how good the render engine is that's important, it's how good the person who use it that's important; Second in the future, probably, the renders will be divided in two types only: real time (for a comparisson just see any high budget game) and unbiased (other types will mostly be for diferent looks like toon effects and such)...but don't worry because this will still take many years to hapen.

So what i can say to you about renders it's this:

Podium: Great capture of the skethcup easy to use and can produce some nice renders, but it's biggest strenght is it's biggest flaw: keeping things simple also means a big lack of depth in the render configuration, (any user that used 3D software before will reach its limits pretty fast) and because it runs inside sketchup, that right now it's everything but a stable and a up-to-date program, will probably crach in heavier models.

Indigo: This one is one to keep an eye on. The best part of indigo is not the render himself but the exporter skindigo, incredibly simple to learn and use and it's unbiased so it's pretty easy to produce photorealist renders but when you're running out of time that can be a problem. Other thing to keep in mind is that you can have problems exporting very large models if you're not on a 64bits OS.

Kerkythea: A complete render package. Can render both biased (for tigh deadlines) or unbiased (for more realism) and it's incredibly stable. You edit the materials outside sketchup (that be a plus for not relying on a unstable engine, or not if you want to do everything inside sketchup). You can also export a heavy model in parts and merge all in Kerkythea not needing this way a "big" PC for exporting.

Hypershot: A breath of fresh air in the render scene. It's incredibly fast and easy to use but for architectural work the images that produces it's still too CG. Where it really shines it's in industrial renders (metal stuff speccially, cars, objects...) and how it work's with hdris. If not the best, it's certanly one of the best in this department.

V-ray: Going right to the point, right now this is the best render that money can buy. Very fast, great renders and lot of options, but...and there's always a "but", it's anything but easy to master, even if you study the entire manual you'll still be very far away of what the real masters can do with it (there's classes where the main focus is rendering with v-ray...). One of the standarts in the advertising and movie industry.

Other's: Vue - great for landscapes, too CG for interiors; Artlantis - a fast render and setup but doesn't really have highlights any a specific area; Modo - I'm learning and trying this right now just because of the rendering so i can't coment now but it's one of the new rendering architectures that "everyone" it's talking right now and there's plans to release their "nexus" render engine to other Cad products.

So in my opinion kerkythea it's the way to go because its free, it adapts to your projects, and will start you in understanding materials configurations that can be aplied in other renders. If you want to make a carreer with 3D or have money and time to spent, THEN learn V-ray, because sooner or later you'll have a project that you'll need to use it or understand it at least.

Don't forget that the render it's just a small part of a great image, you also have: lightning the scene (one of the most important parts and where you'll probably lose more time with tests), materials (a good material can do miracles in a rough model), learn to random and dirty a scene (there's no perfection in real world) and a good 3d model (a sketchup output of a detailed model will probably be best than a render of a basic model). Just try the most renders you can and choose the best that suits you.

P.S.: Sorry for the long text and hope it helps

David

It's funny how things workout... when SU 7 was released, me and some others that were saying that it was a bad released, were "atacked" by a lot of users that called us nuts and telling that there were many "under the hood" upgrades that couldn't be seen in SU7 and that we should be thankfull to google for "their hard work"... and i'm still waiting for an (any) article that would show me that amazing new things that can be done in SU7.

Under the hood...lol...under the hood upgrades it's a phrase from the car world (i have a passion with automotive design) that means that a new car can look like it's previous versions but inside him it has a completly new and more powered engine. Well, SU7 it's the oposite...it looks diferent with some visual tuning(some blue icons and new startup window), it has some new turbos on it's 20 year old engine, so it's a litle faster but breaks more frequently and consumes a lot more fuel (bugsplats and "white window of doom"), sure we can have litle more stability with larger tyres and a harder suspension (ruby) but that will only hide that the car base is old (more tools with ruby but running single core as the rest of the program) and won't still make him as good as the rest of the cars released today...

So right now i see SU7 has a super tuned version of SU4 (the first with rubys) that for more (suposed) speed and stability (7 it's almost as fast as 4...that is 6 years older) lost some of his engine features (shadow problem with the missing carmack's reverse option).

remus:

• add the same line tools from layout
• put "add Detail" tool doing a basic smooth on meshs
• select orientation of the scale tool
• make texture unique working on non complanar meshs (the begining of uv unwarping...)
• make scenes save the positions of points (allowing some basic animation and morphs)
• add a real time graphic engine (like a game engine where we would import our models and play movies and save pictures in real time with soft shadows and reflections and mix it with line styles...let's be honest there's not a single game right now that don't display better pictures in real time than sketchup)

Should i go on remus? Except from the real time graphic engine, i'm not asking too much (it's just ideas for make existing tools better) but i seriously doubt that anyone from google is hearing...
But high poly suport, 64bits suport, multi core suport is (STILL) the most important for me before adding anything new.

I think google really needs to take sketchup more seriously and what i mean is:

1- TRY YOUR OWN SOFTWARE!! And preferably in something more advance than cubes or playgrounds... (this way you will know the limitations of your own software so that you can see why users are getting so frustated with the SU bugs and limitis, and you'll stop doing some dumb decisions like the way your new component browser works...who the hell aproved that?!?)

2- Build a robust platform for others to work, compatible with current and future technology (so that plugin makers can also take advantage of this and build better and faster plugins)

3- Have the basic tools work as it should (offsets, shadows, from countors, 3d model formats import, and so on...)

4- Don't be afraid of building tools that there's already a plugin for it (for the love of god we need a plugin to do a basic scale not oriented with the axes or for having a better mesh than "from contours" can give...oh, and keep in mind that any new tool SHOULDN'T be ruby because they run slower than SU native tools)

5- and most important: LISTEN TO USER'S FEEDBACK (and if possible answer them)

In sketchup go to plugins - skindigo - advanced. There you'll see a check in the Low cpu priority (it's checked by default). Uncheck it and it will use all your cpu power to render much faster, but you probably won't be able to work in your pc as long as indigo it's rendering.

In indigo advanced settings you'll also see the render method availables. I don't really remember all the details about everyone, so the best it's to read about them and try them all in diferent conditions (just sunlight, many lights, naby glass, caustics etc)

One great feature you'll probably like it's turning any component into instances so you can render like 100 cars in the same scene but with a very fast export (it just exports one car model and all the others are instaces and copys of that car, and the instances can be components like rectangles to keep the SU model light and they will be still rendered as cars)

Ninja noise can be used as a plugin or stand alone, and you can try it before buying it (comes with a watermark)

I started my unbised adventures with indigo but sometimes it can be very unstable, that in conjuction with sketchup poly limitations and you'll find impossible to even start rendering very heavy models (my bridge project, that i posted just before the forum went down, couldn't render in indigo). But beeing able to do everything inside skethcup it's indigo best feature.

I switched for kerkythea because until now it never let me down and can render biased and unbiased (so i can easyly adapt to every deadline i have) and has a lot of other options. But i miss doing everything inside sketchup so i'll probably give it another try when the new version is released.

David

Hi Solo

Very nice first try But i think that 1 hour is too much time for a render that size with that geometry and just the sunlight. Did you turn off the low cpu priority in the advanced settings?

I really like unbiased renders (be carefull they can be addictive) because, as you said, they the're very easy to set up. The only problem it's most of the times you'll always have to do some post work, and probably allways too clean the noise (plugins like Ninja Noise and alikes can really do miracles)

But if you're trying unbiased renders now you should try the progressive path tracing method, i don't know how it works but it's like the best of the biased and unbiased renders, unbiased quality with the biased speed, i don't remember if indigo has it, but kerkythea does. But i think it's best when you only use the sun as light.

Keep them coming, and when you have time show us something render with brazil if it's not too much trouble

David

I also agree for a code rewritten/optimization for sketchup first but honestly i don't really think that will happen any time soon because SU7 have just been released. So if any new tool will be released before a SU optimization, it should at least come inside the program and not by a ruby extension.

Take the example of the new scale tool plugin from Fredo6. It's a great plugin that completly turns the sketchup scale tool absolete (for the ones that don't use DCs) but because it's a ruby it's much slower on larger geometries than the basic scale tool that it's part of the program and operates much faster.

So as i said in SU8 whishlist thread before we get anything new we need optimization first.

I have 3 major fears about what will result from this survey that i think we are forgetting...

1- Google finnally realized with this that the orignal users core are the same from the beggining (architectural and design) and that we REALLY need nurbs, sudivision and bezier tools, BUT this will make models heavier and sketchup 7 is alrealy slower with heavy models than 6 for me. So will sketchup be able to handle it has it is? Will They just code new tools and give it to us or will they prepare first sketchup to receive this new tools?

2- The latest tools we had from Google were basicly ruby extensions (think sandbox and DC components). So will this new tools be more ruby extensions? I have no problem with rubys that but we have to keep in mind as more ruby are added the heavier sketchup gets. And they can say what they want about multicore not helping in modeling but how about in ruby calculations, exporting movies, intersecting models, etc? All this are features that can use multicores for faster calculations so how will the "loading" times be?

3- We waited two years for a new sketchup version that the best new thing it had for modeling (or compared to any other new feature in my opinion) were lines intersecting automacticly (I'm sorry but the DCs were made with the big product firms in mind, not artists, and they are just a litle easier than ruby to code and still they do nothing that ruby couldn't do), so how long we will have to wait to get this new features?

I'm sorry for beeing the pessimist in such a optimitic thread guys but, after the desapointment sketchup 7 was, i'm just trying to be realistic about this. I also want this features badly.

I would also be nice to get some feedback from the Sketchup Team this time.

Fredo6

I'm about to kiss you Fredo!! I just discovered that it works in a specifics lines selections from an organic mesh...This is getting better and better!

So yes the plugin works flawless in my PC with Windows Vista 32 Bits.

P.S.: You do realize that you acomplished something the sketchup team couldn't in God-knows-how-much-time-and-sketchup-versions and your ruby just turns the skethcup scale tool completly obsolete right?

Again: many thanks for this script

David

Fredo6

I'm slaping myself right know to make sure this is true...
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! THANK YOU!!!

Couple of years ago i asked for a ruby/feature just like this and was never aswer, and yeasterday i was just thinking how that could come in handy right now (for a project i'm working) and you just released it!! HA HA HA HA HA!!

Let me try again: A million bucks would come in handy right now...hmm...
Damn it

Again thank you very very VERY much Fredo6

David

linea

That kind of thing as hapened to me before but i learned the solution to pass that kind of thing: LIEYING!

I know lying it's evil and all,but hear me out. Keep in mind that even by the model you receveid you know this kind of people that did that 3d model don't know much of MAX or MAYA and, let's be honest their normally not very smart either(anyone that judges someone by their tools and not by their work can't be considered smart). So you can tell them you did that model or images in MAX, MAYA, XSI anything that come to your mind that they'll believe you because in the end they just want the job done and they won't check them how was done,because beeing done with MAX it's just for them to brag with their frinds that their project could just be done with very expensive software... The best part is that they'll probably start seeing you in a diferent way and you'll be making fun of them without they even notice.

This solution has help me avoinding headches given by people like that

David

oh...forget what i said i just saw that you're asking for materials packs and not components...

Sorry (i'm having a really bad day...)

David

i don't think that's going to happen guys...because the bonus packs are already available in 3DW...
Now you have to use the component browser to download from 3dw the skethcup colections... the worst part is that now the best you can do is to download each subcoletion individually and there's only 12 models in each so besides each colection beeing smaller, tou'll have to download each subcoletion of that colection manually...

How dumb is that...

you can see all the info in here:
http://sketchup.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=117002

I also want the return of the back botton again too!! Or the whole old component browser for that matter!!

I'm doing a exposition project right know and i can't express how much i hate this new browser because it simply doesn't help the modeling the workflow, nothing, and besides the back botton missing, beeing copletly dependant of 3Dwarehouse can be even worst. In SK 6 we downloaded component packs and install it and that was it, but now i have to search each component separatly in 3DW (and 3DW can be great but we all also know how much junk there is there too) using the browser or if i choose to download the whole collection it just have 12 compoenents each...

OH!And besides all the old bugs,i found a new bug in the offset tool...yea...

David

Great post bigstick. I agree and i also don't think were asking for too much. In the post i made for the "sketchup 8 wishlist" thread (http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/scf/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=14234&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=wishlist#p111818) most things asked were just solving bugs and optimization.

@unknownuser said:

Your first mistake was to buy the model....build your own!! SU is just not built for importing complex x-format models...it is built for modeling!!

When i say that i had to fix a big (as you think) imported model knowing that i had to redo some of the modeling and texturing (with some using uv unwarping) should tell you that i'm should be able of doing most of the model in sketchup, but even so, the main reason people sometimes have to use other models (skp or any other format) to do a work it's probably the most (if not always) requested thing in this works: SPEED (very short deadlines to answer). And if sketchup it's not built for import then they shouldn't put that option in there. And you still didn't answer my question in that post..

Frederik

Why do you tease me...
I want that!!when will it be released?