[Banned]
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Edited because sadly my point that it was time to move on was mostly lost.
Edited again because some sad twats have to hit the thumbs down without even understanding what they are talking about. Perfect example for this thread.
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You keep wanting to make this about social ills... but I don't think you are getting the simplicity of the issue. The issue here is piracy of SketchUp... or in a more general sense software piracy. You act as if I am not aware of the larger world and what goes on out there... but that assumption is based on the fact that you:
a) know next to nothing about me.
b) are attempting to argue something that is not relevant to the thread.For instance you keep talking about the evils of white america, as if I have no understanding of this. What you don't know is my great grandfather was forcefully taken from his family on the reservation, and raised in an orphanage as "white"... this was part of an effort to erradicate the tribe. There are are other similar issues, but that is my personal business... so I won't elaborate further.
Similarly, what I am adressing is the need to pirate... not the morality of doing so. You are attempting to pull me into some sort of stance on the morality of such, but I have only commented on the hard practical realities of the situation. It is not needful for anybody to pirate software in todays world... open source software has become so prevelant that almost anything you need is there for you.
You attempt to use "cultural ignorance" as some sort of catch-all protection from personal responsibility, but I would suggest anybody capable of finding this place is already well informed enough to know the expectations involved.
Furthermore, the original poster is creating video game assets... I wonder what his stance will be when the time comes for his product to be pirated.
Best,
Jason. -
Why not have an "off topic" area, (or is there one already) and drag this topic there ? Although well meant, all this political / social debating is best off out of the "Sketchup Pro & Make" area.
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Jeff,
Just interjecting--for sake of the discussion: Are you arguing some sort of moral relativism? We can't tell other cultures how to behave, therefore there's no debate? By bringing up past legality of slavery, therefore all criminality (all rule of law?) is not only suspect but not worthy of discussion? Do ethics, fair trade, fair payment for services, and private property also fall to the wayside, because some authorities allowed atrocities at some other time and place?
Carry on. Peter
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@calstock said:
Why not have an "off topic" area, (or is there one already) and drag this topic there ? Although well meant, all this political / social debating is best off out of the "Sketchup Pro & Make" area.
It's not actually off topic any longer. As the thread quickly changed into a piracy discussion. And whatsmore the piracy discussion is mostly about the piracy of Sketchup. The OP has been banned so his needs are not a concern any longer and his question was rather topical anyway.
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@pbacot said:
Jeff,
Just interjecting--for sake of the discussion: Are you arguing some sort of moral relativism? We can't tell other cultures how to behave, therefore there's no debate?
yes, i guess i'm arguing moral relativism.. in that it's incredibly likely our values in this neck of the woods will be different in a hundred years from now just like they were different a hundred years ago.
and that moral values don't change at a consistent pace for every individual or culture.
so yeah, at this very exact point in time in the u.s, software piracy is illegal and is also seen as a moral wrongdoing.. but it's all relative and we can't (or shouldn't) expect every other culture to see things the way we do.. especially when realizing it's very possible that in a hundred years time, those people might look back at us going "holy crap! i can't believe they made a french fry recipe top secret and allowed a handful of individuals to profit so immensely off of doing so" (or whatever)
(though honestly, i do think things will probably get worse in these regards before they start getting better.. so maybe 500 years time for that example
)but really, who am i to say what's right or wrong? who is anybody to say that? but to make things worse, the people who are saying what's right or wrong aren't doing so from a moral standpoint..
at the top, it's the people who are making money (and i mean-- bringing money into existence in the first place.. the creators) that are creating the laws on how we are to use the money.. we're arguing about the morality of using money but the system itself is rotten from the top down.. and the more we continue to enforce these people's rules, and especially the more we allow the institution of money to be a guiding moral light, the longer the problem will continue..@unknownuser said:
By bringing up past legality of slavery, therefore all criminality (all rule of law?) is not only suspect but not worthy of discussion? Do ethics, fair trade, fair payment for services, and private property also fall to the wayside, because some authorities allowed atrocities at some other time and place?
not really and it wasn't the point i was trying to bring up when mentioning those things.. just meant to say that 'right and wrong' changes and can do so in relatively short amounts of time..
however, our current lawmakers are committing huge crimes themselves.. so yes, their laws are baloney or they're certainly not practicing what they preach.. we're sitting here arguing about stealing software and yeah, it's illegal under current law.. just like it should be illegal to invade a country and rob it's citizens of the natural resources under their feet.. but the lawmakers simply have to change the law to make that act ok..
morals and laws aren't the same thing.. if the law suddenly changed to "it's illegal to charge money for software" would you quit using software since it's violating your personal code of ethics?
point being, there are lines being crossed in the conversation where legality and morality are being used interchangeably when really they are different. -
@jason_maranto said:
For instance you keep talking about the evils of white america,
yes, that's what i'm talking about.. (and just to make sure we're clear, i don't mean that literally as read nor do i think you mean it as such but yeah.. along those lines)
most, by far, problems in the world can be traced to the power structure in place.. in a non capitalistic society, would there still be the notion of crime? sure, i imagine.. but far far less.. i don't call for a utopian society.. just something alot better than what we have today.. thats all.. that's my wish.. i want to contribute to society without the underlying sense that in order for me to do so, i need to figure a way to suck something out of it in order to feed myself.
we're far beyond starvation as a civilization so then why is it still so common in the world?
because we have people that don't know how to solve problems, nor whose goals are to solve societal problems in the most powerful positions in the world.yet these are the people who are telling you how to think. and saying "it's ok for you to own an idea".. that is not your idea, i'm sorry.. you are standing on the shoulders of giants.. your idea is everybody's idea just like the only reason you had that idea in the first place is because of the billions of people who came before you.
i want our civilization to have a revolution.. a revolution of our own consciousness.. one in which we see "software piracy" as a stupid idea in and of itself.. we're holding ourselves back by continuing with these old patterns/traditions/rules etc.
@unknownuser said:
Similarly, what I am adressing is the need to pirate... not the morality of doing so. You are attempting to pull me into some sort of stance on the morality of such, but I have only commented on the hard practical realities of the situation. It is not needful for anybody to pirate software in todays world... open source software has become so prevelant that almost anything you need is there for you.
i think it's becoming more prevalent but we're not fully there yet.. a couple more decades and the idea of "i'm going to get rich off of coding some 3d app then putting it on lockdown" might not be such a great business plan..
@unknownuser said:
You attempt to use "cultural ignorance" as some sort of catch-all protection from personal responsibility,
yeah, maybe.. i'm speaking off-the-cuff stream-of-consciousness and not really editing/preconceptualizing/thoroughly thinking through all of this so i imagine it's very likely i'm doing a lot of stuff like what you're saying.
@unknownuser said:
Furthermore, the original poster is creating video game assets... I wonder what his stance will be when the time comes for his product to be pirated.
who knows.. maybe 'his assets' are simply contributions to an open sourced project.
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Moral relevance and moral equivalency speculations aside, I have enjoyed reading this interaction. Moral and ethical issues don't really change. People do.
I can answer for no one but myself and only from within the cultural norms and ethos of my community and my family. My father used to say, "If it is not yours, don't take it. If however, you life depends on taking it, then live and expect to have to deal with the consequences of taking something that doesn't belong to you."
This is why I have the sig below. Facts are facts and rules are rules. But then there are circumstances and priorities to consider.
As far as Sketchup and Trimble are concerned, I did not have the money to purchase Sketchup 2015 Pro. However, I showed them what I was doing with their product and they granted me a Non-profit license. They seemed to be very amenable to making concessions in my favor. And even if they weren't, it's not a life and death situation for me. Y'know what I mean?
Most people, in most cultures, in most ages, will tell you that stealing is wrong. But thieves will generally follow with why it's OK for them. It doesn't matter if it's pirating software, stealing bread or taking someone's life. The vast majority of the ills of any culture fall under the heading of 'a feeling of entitlement'. The question always remains, are they really entitled; to the software, the bread or someone's life? In most cases, it's still no. But there are reasonable exceptions.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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maybe not 100% related to the topics above but relevant nonetheless
(and a good watch for anyone spending time on the interwebs and/or concerned with the locking down of the internet or monetization of idea & information) -
Not that it matters but I personally don't understand how you could choose to put these two things together.
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@box said:
Not that it matters but I personally don't understand how you could choose to put these two things together.
because the way the power$-that-be are going to (or- are) controlling piracy is via criminalization and censorship of the internet.. and we need to be REAL carefully with agreeing with their stance as it's just furthering the whole patriot act/NSA spying thing..
there are some points in the documentary that do address stuff brought up in the thread (such as 'stealing is stealing').. things i feel are worth reconsideration or reevaluation of.
the documentary also revolves around copyright law and the hoarding of knowledge/information for monetary gains.
i don't know.. i just think it's relevant but i don't know how to (or if i should be) sales pitching the thing.. just sharing it is all..
but the first reviewer on the imbd seems to see relevancy as well:
"In the age of piracy, SOPA, and net neutrality, this is a must see."if it's of no relevancy to you then no biggie.. it will probably be interesting to someone else.
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Your choice.
I see resurrecting this thread as detrimental to your point.
Posting a thread where a proper discussion can take place without the "banned" negativity would be far more productive in my humble opinion.
But what tfdik.Edit: not a fan of mods invisible edits. Posted as a new thread I would have applauded it.
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@box said:
Your choice.
I see resurrecting this thread as detrimental to your point.
Posting a thread where a proper discussion can take place without the "banned" negativity would be far more productive in my humble opinion.
But what tfdik.i don't start threads. i just hijack them*
but yeah, i see your point.. that said, i think ultimately, the 'banned' bit and it's negativity are still relevant in all of this..
*** i say that as a joke but i guess if i were to analyze my posting history, there's probably some truth in there..**
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it all good.
I'd watch it if i had time. maybe later.
thanks anyway.
You snowed in?
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@rich o brien said:
it all good.
I'd watch it if i had time. maybe later.
thanks anyway.
You snowed in?
no.. it was a hoax.. maybe 8" of snow here..
i'm sure the news people who hyped all this up in the first place will find some crap town in eastern vermont where it dropped 28" and broadcast "over two feet of snow!!! snowmaggedon really happened!! it's the snowpocalypse!!" :0
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The media lie?
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@rich o brien said:
The media lie?
ha.
I guess in this case, it's just an example of still not being able to predict the weather very accurately.. but I guess eastern Long Island got it pretty bad.here's my street right now. (and the piece of street art that led me to the video earlier.. I didn't know who Aaron Swartz was til I saw this painting. finally remembered to google him)
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@rich o brien said:
The media lie?
No, only one does. (they take turns). Then the rest can just copy the sh*t!
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