[Banned]
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So if someone robs a store with no gun... Or a bank with no gun, just a note that says give me all the money. That's the same? It's ok to steal if you don't use force? It's ok to steal from big companies but not individuals? I don't buy it... (Pun intended) Stealing is Stealing. Those who turn a blind eye are not much better than those who do it. I guess I would be one of those since I don't often report piracy, but I sure don't have to support it or help those who do it. I've reported a number of plugins and models I've seen to their authors. If we don't look after our own niche then who will? And that niche includes SketchUp Pro.
@unknownuser said:
further-- it's actually illegal for me to use a cracked version of suPro.
but is it illegal for someone in thailand to use a cracked version of suPro?When you download the software you make yourself a party to a contract. The Terms of Service, the User Agreement. Doesn't matter where you live, you're bringing yourself under the contract law of the region in which the software is licensed. Will that company or person have the legal reach to harm you? Perhaps not...
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@krisidious said:
Stealing is Stealing.
no it's not.. even our laws make distinctions between different types of stealing.. petty theft, grand theft, strong-arm robbery, etc..
if stealing is stealing, the case of a kid that steals a pack of gum should be handled the same way as the dude robbing a bank..
but that's pretty much what the commercials(etc) imply when comparing a teenager torrenting a song next to a carjacker..
@unknownuser said:
Those who turn a blind eye are not much better than those who do it.
the problem isn't stealing.. not the root of the problem at least.. fix the root and stealing disappears automatically.
i don't turn a blind eye to stealing software (nor do i use pirated software).. it's just that focusing effort on software piracy won't solve the problem.. it's shortsighted.
in the same way our jails are full of drug addicts & dealers.. arresting them and making laws against them aren't going to solve any real problems.. this should be obvious by now.. the more we attempt to criminalize this type of stuff, the worse the 'problem' gets.
@unknownuser said:
When you download the software you make yourself a party to a contract. The Terms of Service, the User Agreement. Doesn't matter where you live, you're bringing yourself under the contract law of the region in which the software is licensed. Will that company or person have the legal reach to harm you? Perhaps not...
when you download it from where? some file hosting site? or when you get a torrent, you've made yourself party to some sort of legal contract? i highly doubt that- sorry
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IMHO what was implied by the OP's statements was sufficient for Rich to ban him.
He suggested he was using a Pro version. BUT his added 'wink' suggested he hadn't paid for it.
If it's a genuine mistake he can appeal...As a moderator, personally I can think of only a couple of occasions,,, when a post had the merest suggestion of using a cracked version... I edited the post to remove that hint, and immediately PM'd the OP pointing out that they might be compromising themselves in their post's wording - best avoided if you want any help etc...
I think one never mentioned it again, and the other 'disappeared'...On other occasions, where the breach is more obvious, they just get banned...
The Mods/Admins are besieged by spammers and those who skirt the edges of legitimacy...
Whether or not a memeber's use/post complies with the 'letter of the law' [TOS] can sometimes become blurred.
We have to make decisions - 'on-the-hoof' - this is NOT a democracy
However, we haven't shot anyone dead [yet] - but time will tell
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@jeff hammond said:
i don't turn a blind eye to stealing software (nor do i use pirated software).. it's just that focusing effort on software piracy won't solve the problem.. it's shortsighted.
And what pray tell is the root of the problem?
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@jeff hammond said:
i don't turn a blind eye to stealing software (nor do i use pirated software).. it's just that focusing effort on software piracy won't solve the problem.. it's shortsighted.
And what pray tell is the root of the problem?
@jeff hammond said:
when you download it from where? some file hosting site? or when you get a torrent, you've made yourself party to some sort of legal contract? i highly doubt that- sorry
The user agreement is built into the software and make no doubt you are agreeing to a contract as soon as you pass the user agreement with the click of yes I agree and start using it. especially being here in the US.
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@krisidious said:
And what pray tell is the root of the problem?
oh idk, money?
aside from that, the people committing the largest crimes which are affecting the most people.. the people committing the most murders etc on our planet are the rule makers and money makers.. (and the line obviously blurs.. they're often the same people doing both)..
if you're living in some country which is in debt to the u.s for a few trillion over some crappy power/resource grabbing deal.. how likely are you to abide by their law when it comes to a software eula? or maybe the u.s invades your country and murders hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.. who is the real criminal here?
the u.s says the war they decide to fight is legal so that somehow means it's legal and it's ok to commit mass murder?
then they bring in their contractors to rebuild the country they just blew up but leave the habitants of said country to foot the bill?these are incredibly worse than someone downloading a piece of software that they couldn't afford anyway even though they probably work harder than someone in the u.s. who can readily afford the software at the asking price..
if you want to sit around playing world moral enforcer, at least focus efforts on the true criminals.. you see what i'm saying?
(though i don't really expect so.. most people in the u.s are ok with the crimes committed by 'our' government and are ok with the hypocrisy in the laws they create.. but hey, if some brown dude in some far off land uses a software crack, let's burn him at the stake)@unknownuser said:
The user agreement is built into the software and make no doubt you are agreeing to a contract as soon as you pass the user agreement with the click of yes I agree and start using it. especially being here in the US.
yeah, i don't know.. i never read that stuff anyway.. like never once.
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@kaja9 said:
I did a mistake -: there should be "I didnลฅ play" a 'l' is missing, of course
As far as I can read this, someone else did pay for his pro-version.
You must consider Englisch is probably not his native Language. (As it isn't mine)Bep
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@bep said:
@kaja9 said:
I did a mistake -: there should be "I didnลฅ play" a 'l' is missing, of course
As far as I can read this, someone else did pay for his pro-version.
You must consider Englisch is probably not his native Language. (As it isn't mine)...
Sorry, but that's a lame excuse...
It doesn't make any sense in English.
Why would he say, 'I didn't play' ?
Play what ?
It makes no sense...
He simply stated he did not 'pay' and then attempted to retract it by inventing a linguistic excuse...
'Pay and 'play' might sound similar but are not connected.
And there is no logical way you might say, 'I didn't play' in that context...
Anyway, you also can't assume from that lame rebuttal that he did pay for it - he did NOT explicitly say that !
IF he had explained himself better he might have wriggled out of the trap he built for himself...We have wasted too much time on a small fish that might reappear under a different name anyway...
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Wow, I can't believe how this is escalating - from software piracy to murder and wars and everything in between.
This entire site is dedicated to Sketchup, and while many of us would really like to have a pro version, many simply cannot afford it (maybe some of them couldn't really make use of it, but for many it's just the mindset that a Pro version of something must be better than the free version).
When they see somebody here on the forums openly flaunting the fact that they have Pro but did not pay for it, if there are no consequences for the theft (and that's what it is), then that very inaction on the part of the moderators sends a message that it's ok, and it will encourage others to maybe do the same.
Some of you have suggested that perhaps the meaning of his statement has been misunderstood. I don't buy into that.
When he says
"I use paid version (but to be honest - didn't pay)",
it seems pretty straightforward to me what he meant. Why would he say that unless he is using a pirated copy of Sketchup and is proud of it, even laughing about it. Striking through the statement (to me) indicates "I didn't really say that, haha" wink wink, nudge nudge
If somebody else had paid for it, I don't think he would have even mentioned that.And when he realized that there might be consequences of his "confession" and had the opportunity to possibly explain the "misunderstanding" all he could come up with was that he meant to say that he didn't "play" for it. Now what could that mean? If he did in fact have a legal, paid-for Pro version of Sketchup he could have easily explained that. He did not take that opportunity because he knew he could not explain what he "really meant"
Admittedly my thinking process doesn't run very deep like some of the rest of you, but honestly I don't think it takes a mental giant to see what's what here.
For what it's worth, those are my thoughts on this matter. I think banning him was the only logical action to take.
BTW -
@jeff hammond said:
most people in the u.s are ok with the crimes committed by 'our' government and are ok with the hypocrisy in the laws they create
Really? You honestly believe that?
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Solo is just enjoying them argue...
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He's probably not the only one
Plus, it's National Popcorn Day
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@hellnbak said:
Wow, I can't believe how this is escalating - from software piracy to murder and wars and everything in between.
when the argument towards me is 'stealing is stealing' , why stop there.. i mean 'crime is crime', right?
@unknownuser said:
This entire site is dedicated to Sketchup, and while many of us would really like to have a pro version, many simply cannot afford it
this, in a roundabout way, outlines a shortsighted viewpoint.. yes, the site it dedicated to sketchup etc.. but let's not forget, this is a global site.. it's on the worldwideweb and everybody in the whole wide world is welcome here.. it's not just about the u.s or europe or australia.
and right, many people in those places can't really afford sketchup pro.. but just imagine for a moment you live somewhere such as india.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
according to that, a person in luxemburg could buy sketchup pro 8 times with one month wage.. for someone in pakistan, you need to work nearly two months to buy sketchup 1 time.
and that list is only showing the top half of the countries.. most people --by far-- can not afford software at u.s prices.. not that they don't want to pay, they simply can not pay.
so this also outlines an irresponsibility on the part of software companies (not just software but...).. they market themselves as world wide solutions yet they sell based off incomes in the richest country in the world.. further, they're mining the poorer countries for talent.. if youre an awesome coder from india, there's a good chance you're working for a u.s based company instead of providing solutions for your neighbors..
and to be perfectly honest, i really don't think i'm pointing out anything the software companies aren't already aware of.. i highly doubt their business plan consists of "we need to sell at ____ price to everyone in the world in order to be profitable".. instead, it's probably more like "we need to sell at ___ price to people willing and/or able to buy our stuff".. that's how they're doing it, they're more aware of piracy than any of us, and they're not doing much in the way chasing after some kid in the philippines who's using a cracked version of their software.. why? because that kid can't afford the thing in the first place.. they'll never get any money out of him and they're only going to be spending money by chasing after him.
the idea that we should be policing for piracy is a bit ridiculous since the software companies themselves aren't doing much in the way of that.. why is it your responsibility and who are you helping by doing it? things aren't so black and white all the time. i'm pretty sure if you called up the fbi and say 'hey, this kid kaja said he has a pirate version of sketchup.. i got his address and everything' -- they'd laugh at you.
do the same thing with someone in california and they might take you a little more seriously.. there's money to be had from the californian but none to be had from most people in the world.@unknownuser said:
When they see somebody here on the forums openly flaunting the fact that they have Pro but did not pay for it, if there are no consequences for the theft (and that's what it is), then that very inaction on the part of the moderators sends a message that it's ok, and it will encourage others to maybe do the same.
i just don't believe it.. according to that train of thought, my views on all of this obviously mean i'm a software pirate yet i don't have one single piece of software on my computers that i haven't either paid for or otherwise am using legally under the laws of the united states or agreements with the software companies.
are you going to consider downloading a crack because kaja said he did? is anyone in this thread going to do that? who are these others that you speak of? people are either using pirated software or they aren't.
in my view, it's not our responsibility to punish lawbreakers.. protect the site? sure.. if your site is being used as a means to obtain stolen goods either in public or via pms then yeah, something needs to be done about it.. but being the issuer of consequences over theft --especially a theft that was neither committed towards us nor do we have any actual proof of?? come on.
i break laws.. i smoke weed pretty much every day.. are you going to ban me now? surely you must make an example of me before this place gets overrun by a bunch of loser potheads amiright?
@unknownuser said:
Really? You honestly believe that?
most as in more than 50%? yes.
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i smoke weed pretty much every dayI'm smoking while I type....ummmm, I mean I type so fast the keyboard is smoking...
and I didn't have to play for it. Ok I take all that back. 
Seriously, Some modeling jobs need that kind of medicine. I keep a humidor full of it near by.
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Jeff, I admire your passion and your conviction. I do not agree with much of what you say, but I'll have to leave it to others who are better able to express their thoughts to rebut your flawed logic.
Though I doubt that will happen. I think this thread has pretty much been argued to death and nobody is likely to suddenly change their point of view either way.
I just hope everyone is able to put all this behind them and get back to the real reason we are all here - to learn from each other and show the world the amazing things that can be done with Sketchup (whichever version we happen to use)
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@hellnbak said:
Jeff, I admire your passion and your conviction. I do not agree with much of what you say, but I'll have to leave it to others who are better able to express their thoughts to rebut your flawed logic.
i don't expect many people to agree.. especially when i don't really express in the best or most convincing manner.. basically i guess it boils down to me having a problem with people reaping the benefits of globalization while ignoring the type of damage it can cause when not done with pure intent.. globalization is not happening with the goal of bettering mankind.. it's happening with the goal of bettering the lives of very very few people.. and any of the negative effects, such as software piracy, well-- those people are just criminals.. they're the bad ones..
something mike posted a couple years back:
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=179%26amp;t=49764americans are angels and armenians are devils.
sorry-- there's more to it than that.'crime statistics'
..just doing some rough guessing based on that chart and where most members here seem to be from, we're probably looking at around 30%, or 100,000 people here using pirated software.. that's about what i imagined but somehow this thread is completely and totally off-balance with reality..
or is it more of a 'dont ask dont tell' type of policy that should be in play?
and maybe me speculating too much or maybe i shouldn't even say this but.. it's not incredibly tough to see that there are people in this thread shunning kaja for acts they themselves are doing.
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Mike is actually very vocal about software pricing. He sees the need for some regulation internationally. But that's a whole other discussion.
Whether it copyright law, thievery, or any other subject the main aim of this community is to educate.
Inaction is not education
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@rich o brien said:
Mike is actually very vocal about software pricing. He sees the need for some regulation internationally. But that's a whole other discussion.
oh.. i just mentioned mike so i could re-post that chart.. wasn't meaning to imply anything about his (or the site's) views if that's what it seemed like.
@unknownuser said:
Whether it copyright law, thievery, or any other subject the main aim of this community is to educate.
Inaction is not education
i get that.. but at the same time, the eduction so far is -- don't talk about pirating software or you'll be banned..
even though it's very likely that a significant amount of people here do pirate software.so it's shunning people instead of helping/educating.. or maybe-- it's an attempt at 'helping' someone by making them feel embarrassed for their actions.
not entirely different than ,say, a heroin addict.. don't help & educate the addict or the general public-- instead, put them in jail and make them feel as if they're not welcome in society.. it's not addressing the cause nor preventative measures and instead only focuses on results occurring after it's too late.
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Based on the presumptions made so far it is painting a different picture to what actually happened.
If Kaja had replied to our private exchange then we would be have a whole other convo here.
He/She didn't. A 2nd post was reported. A warning issued. A post was made. Another flag was raised. And so on....
What I see happening here is that a presumption to a comment was made and someone got kicked to the kurb for that comment. Which wasn't/isn't the case.
So, given the choice, I'm sure Kaja would likely handle things diffo. Maybe learn a few things about members here. I dunno? But at least by exchanging views you can then reason with people.
But what I take outta this is that your damned if you do and your damned if you don't.
Regards the third reported post in this thread. That too has been dealt with and discussions occuring privately.
BTW, I agree with your opinion. But there are times when you have to admin/moderate a forum to the communities wishes. If you didn't and sheriffed the placed to your own opinions it would likely become 'forumtown' with 'virtual sticks' being used to police members.
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