SketchUp 2013 Gripes & Bitchin' ONLY ;)
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@fluffy82 said:
@unknownuser said:
Mac does look way cooler, that's true, but it is much slower than my PC - especially in start-up (Mac 2-3 minutes vs PC 15 seconds).
Also the "better graphics" are not true anymore. It used to be true, in the 80's or 90's, but today PC caught up. My Radeon Club 7870 card is waaaaay better than anything I ever saw on Mac, mine or others.
And the biggest problem is price and durability... My Mac-mouse cost €50 and broke after 3 weeks, the second one after 2 months. I bought a simple €15 Windows mouse, and it has been doing the job for two years now
Anyway, I don't want to get involved in any Mac vs PC war so I'll try to shut up now
Jeez,
Within the last 10 years or so (when I made the final switch to mac) I never ever experienced a 2-3 min startup time unless the system wasn't well maintained..FYI the current system startup time on a new MBP is 10,3s..
For the "better graphics" argument - OSX's internal color management was or is still more superior than Windows' while Open GL acceleration used to be better on PC's in the past (due to better drivers) although the gap has been almost closed now.
And from an End user perspective - if you have ever worked on a retina display for a while, you will never want go back anymore.P.S. The magic mouse sucks - I agree
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@unknownuser said:
@fluffy82 said:
Mac does look way cooler, that's true, but it is much slower than my PC - especially in start-up (Mac 2-3 minutes vs PC 15 seconds).
@archheni said:
.FYI the current system startup time on a new MBP is 10,3s..
launch all apps at once
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS2ZipMM2Oo
wheeeee.. youtube vids
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@mcpcorey said:
....in 7 years of SU, I have never had a need to back save an SU file until now...
Nothing to do with the previous back-and-forth concerning that particular model...but that simple statement begs the question as to why the dev team feel it necessary to provide such a facility in a release (Make) that is supposed to be for non commercial use.
I can't imagine a situation in which a hobbyist (or even a single freelancer 'bending' the rules) would need to save a file in any version other than the one they are using.If Trimble want to monetise their new acquisition as rapidly as possible, the way to go would be to more clearly separate Pro and Make to ensure that people using it for earning serious money pay their fair share of the development costs, rather than pushing all those costs onto the back of the honest Pro users..
A quote from a guitar-modding blog in which SU Make was, quite properly, being recommended for such 'hobbyist' design work. "My brother-in-law, a partner in an engineering firm, says many of his fellow engineers use the free version for most everything that doesn't need to be done in a dedicated engineering app."
There's your hemorrhage in income stream, right there. -
Alan, I'm sure you can remember all the discussions and debates we had, when Google released a free version of SU...
In the beginning it was also restricted to be for non-commercial work only...
Personally I do not see how they will enforce this restriction...
I seem to recall that this was also the big question, the first time Google released a free version...
Don't they learn anything from previous mistakes...??
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@frederik said:
Don't they learn anything from previous mistakes...??
Apparently not, Kim.
I have some sympathy with (Jason's?) suggestion that maybe they just ought to throw the whole program out there for free and charge for the bolt-ons. But I think that particular horse exited the stable some time ago...too late closing the door now. Whatever extensions were charged for would probably appear in some form of free format, given the number of talented coders out there. Their functionality might be a little limited and they may be a little slower, being Ruby not C++, but Hey! free is free.
This situation already exists regarding exportable AEC formats. There are numerous ruby exporters now that circumvent the lack of such export options in Make; and there are plenty of professionals who have absolutely no need for either a Style Builder or Layout.If they really are going to go down this dual path with Trimble, then someone, somewhere needs to sit down and have a very serious think about what features are absolutely necessary in a free version. There surely has to be a balance between giving away a decently-featured (and extendable) Make to satisfy the needs of hobbyists and the 'little guy' (and which will also act as an incentive and longer-term 'trial-version for commercial users to upgrade to Pro) and putting something out there that people can use to make serious money (if not an entire living) from without contributing a cent towards its development.
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I definitely sympathize with the need to update based on Layout and teaching needs -- this was where I was with v8. It's an unfortunate reality that many will be forced to "update" and therefore send the message that everything is OK to Trimble -- a message that they may not actually agree with.
Free vs Pro... I've offended people on every side of this debate over the years. From my POV it is not reasonable to expect the software to improve without financially supporting it. Since I definitely want the software to improve, I think Pro only for all update features is the way forward.
However that came with a caveat, the new Pro would have to be such a clear upgrade that users would have no issue with parting with the money to move up. Looking at the situation now I'm not sure that is a feasible suggestion. It seems major updates to the SketchUp proper part of Pro are not forthcoming... and if they do appear they will likely be in the form of Trimble made Ruby+C extensions (at additional cost).
IMO this is not a good value for the user.
What I see happening now is Trimble attempting to make SketchUp appear to have more value to the marketplace by "adding" the (already long available elsewhere) free plugins to the package and calling that an upgrade. As if they are somehow responsible for the time and hard work the 3rd party coders have put in, and can take credit for it.
The problem is they may very well get away with it as long as the 3rd party developers let them by actually using the Extensions Warehouse. Of course I'm not in any position to say how the plugin developers should do things -- but I can say I would be very wary.
The public perception is "Hey Trimble is giving away all this free stuff so the cost of Pro isn't so bad". Just look at the Extension Warehouse with a clear eye -- does it say clearly anywhere that the plugins are not made by Trimble? I can't find that without looking very deep into the website. A user who is not experienced with such things is not going to have a clear understanding that Trimble is not financing these in some way. The implied impression is one that heavily benefits Trimble and the SketchUp team -- whereas the reality is that SketchUcation has done more to support these developers over the years than SketchUp itself has... however we see no mention of that anywhere.
To me this is a spit in the eye of the community and a clear attempt at hijacking alot of time and hard work for Trimble's benefit. This will become only more so when the commercial Trimble "bolt-on's" appear -- at which point the free plugins become loss leaders for drawing in the users.
If the extensions warehouse clearly stated on the main page that anything not made by the SketchUp team is a completely separate entity from Trimble, and required separate financial support (via donations), then I would be alot less skeptical. However, as it stands the uneducated user is left to attempt to discern these facts for themselves... rather murky don't you think?
If I were a developer I would only put commercial plugins on the Extensions Warehouse... if that.
Best,
Jason. -
@frederik said:
In the beginning it was also restricted to be for non-commercial work only...
Personally I do not see how they will enforce this restriction...i doubt they're too set on 'enforcing' the non-commercial policy..
the non-commercial thing is aimed at the honest people out there of which there are plenty.. there are people that use suFree in a commercial environment because google let them.. but, now that it's not allowed, they'll buy the software.. (or quit using it)
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@unknownuser said:
..there are people that use suFree in a commercial environment because google let them.. but, now that it's not allowed, they'll buy the software.. (or quit using it)
Or keep using the Google one and just keep rolling. Nothing to stop them from using say suFree 7 is there? They will get that nag screen on start up from time to time
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@glenn at home said:
@unknownuser said:
..there are people that use suFree in a commercial environment because google let them.. but, now that it's not allowed, they'll buy the software.. (or quit using it)
Or keep using the Google one and just keep rolling. Nothing to stop them from using say suFree 7 is there? They will get that nag screen on start up from time to time
well, yeah.. they could do that.. but 3-4 years down the line, su7 might not even work with the current operating systems etc..
it's not really like they've changed the policy.. this is trimble's first release and we are seeing their policy for the first time.
how it pans out with pre-trimble users is somewhat irrelevant from their point of view (i imagine)
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@jpalm32 said:
Dan,
I noticed happy satisfied people are invading this section.
Instruct them they are off topic please.CHOP CHOP
go their headsYea.. really guys THIS thread is for getting all those suppressed bitches & gripes out in the open.
If something here prompts you to want to discuss something in detail.. start a new topic thread please.
(And you can put a link to that topic in here, if you wish, rather than monopolizing this thread for several pages.) -
@unknownuser said:
well, yeah.. they could do that.. but 3-4 years down the line, su7 might not even work with the current operating systems etc..
it's not really like they've changed the policy.. this is trimble's first release and we are seeing their policy for the first time.
how it pans out with pre-trimble users is somewhat irrelevant from their point of view (i imagine)
I agree Jeff, just pointing the obvious out
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Sorry Dan, I have 2013 installed just haven't had a chance to really use it much. I am disappointed in it and really haven't seen much in upgrades since 7 for me to get excited about it as much. There were a few new items in 8 that were cool but not earth shattering.
I agree with much of what Jason has said. I did in fact get Bonzai3D v3 recently and I might move to it more with it's advanced tool set. I will say that it (Bonzai) is no where as easy to use as SU but nothing really has been.
I don't use SU Layout so no real incentive for me to buy it once the 2013 demo is gone. -
[quote="jason_maranto"]
"The public perception is "Hey Trimble is giving away all this free stuff so the cost of Pro isn't so bad".
Just look at the Extension Warehouse with a clear eye -- does it say clearly anywhere that the plugins are not made by Trimble? I can't find that without looking very deep into the website . A user who is not experienced with such things is not going to have a clear understanding that Trimble is not financing these in some way. The implied impression is one that heavily benefits Trimble and the SketchUp team -- whereas the reality is that SketchUcation has done more to support these developers over the years than SketchUp itself has... however we see no mention of that anywhere."I was amazed at this! They didn't even mention the names.
They have search by name but who's going to do that.
If you know the name, you probably found it here. -
Keep in mind that only a small fraction of plugins here or elsewhere actually deliver the advertised function let alone actually solve a problem. Unless somebody either starts to enforce plugins (delivers as advertised) or Trimble states clearly "ah ah ah....I know what you are thinking...does this plugin actually do anything or not....well being sketchup and the plugin community is basically the wild west...you got to ask yourself one question....do I feel lucky"
Seriously, I am not going to call out specifics....but there are authors here that have 10 or more plugins that range from the "gee that was false advertizing" to the "it works some of the time" to the "this just does work at all" My favorite is the plugin (wont say exactly what it is attempting to do) that does 2 things. First, it apparently swaps or inverts ALL the geometries in the Z direction. Second, totally disables selection of any kind (and corrupts the file...only way back is to use an older version of the drawing and redo the work hoping it doesnt mess things up again). And this plugin is highly regarded on this site....nice!!!!
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@vojo said:
Keep in mind that only a small fraction of plugins here or elsewhere actually deliver the advertised function let alone actually solve a problem. Unless somebody either starts to enforce plugins (delivers as advertised) or Trimble states clearly "ah ah ah....I know what you are thinking...does this plugin actually do anything or not....well being sketchup and the plugin community is basically the wild west...you got to ask yourself one question....do I feel lucky"
Seriously, I am not going to call out specifics....but there are authors here that have 10 or more plugins that range from the "gee that was false advertizing" to the "it works some of the time" to the "this just does work at all" My favorite is the plugin (wont say exactly what it is attempting to do) that does 2 things. First, it apparently swaps or inverts ALL the geometries in the Z direction. Second, totally disables selection of any kind (and corrupts the file...only way back is to use an older version of the drawing and redo the work hoping it doesnt mess things up again). And this plugin is highly regarded on this site....nice!!!!
That's a little harsh.
When I used Sketchup (since version v.3 and stopped using it half a year ago), I heavily depended on some of the plugins here on Sketchucation.
To name one :Fredo's Surface Operations (in combo with CPhillips' JointPushpull)
Without it ,and disregarding it's limitations, it would have been impossible to draw roads/siteworks on curved sites.
I would not have been able to do my work in Sketchup without it.And there are many more examples.
Yes, there are a lot of B class plugins too, however isn't that why the Sketchucation plugin store and EW are now intended for ? To sort them , assess them and create guidelines for new plugins so underperforming plugins won't make it? -
Dojo.
There is normally a disclaimer in the plugin like:
@unknownuser said:
THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED
WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.That is no JOKE!
That doesent mean developers should be arrogant and ignore best practices while developing the plugins (we often get hints if off target around here).
But as long as the developer hasent broken any golden rules the "as is" clausul means it is up to YOU to take a risk at testing if the plugin does what it is intended to do.I don't think it's a good idea to start generalizing about plugin performances here at this community since we(devs) all have such a different level of knowledge and experience.
Some are longtime proffesionals and some are quite new to this.
Ruby is slow, the API and it's documentations is a bit sketchy so problems are bound to happend like it or not. -
Mmmmm ..... this is not exactly a 'gripe or bitch' about 2013. Its more about the folks that gripe / bitch about some of the not so great plugins.
Most of these plugins are available for free download and use. Donations are hoped for and gratefully accepted BUT from my research not even 5% actually make a donation and this figure is more than likely 3%!
Maybe when the freeloaders get a little conscience and make some effort at supporting the developers financially these developers will be able to allocate more time and rectify any short-fallings their plugins have.
I personally would be very slow to criticise the efforts of folks that produce donation-ware. I think if a particular plugin user sees potential in a plugin but finds it not working properly, they would do well to send a few bucks to the developer with a request to fix the problems ....... I'd say the developer would bend over backwards to facilitate if few a few more did this.
I know what I'm talking about in this regard as it often gets tiring facilitating freeloaders that just take, take, take and make no efforts to give anything in return. Still, its the small percentage of generous minded folks that make going on worth while.
Mike
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Don't think it's even a percent...
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1/1000 !
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I'd much rather someone set a price, at least then I know I have not insulted or offended them by innocently undervaluing their work.
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