A new home for SketchUp
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@alan fraser said:
@mike lucey said:
I wonder how far away the day is when designers will just have to attach some electrodes and start 'think modeling' the design?
We'll end up with lots of buildings looking like this.
An interesting part of this is how to convert the think modelling into computer commands to produce models and/or the real thing. Make booby x 2 is not good enough but defining appropriate design criteria might just make think modelling the next big thing. Not quite sure if OT but certainly enough for a tremble.
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@mike lucey said:
Intersting product and relatively cheap price point, well cheaper than I expected. Try before you buy might be a prerequisite for some people!
I personally would like to see Kinect developed to replace my mouse. It could be almost like physically building lifting windows into place etc and a lot healthier than sitting here getting lazy and developing RSI! With Trimble's gadget focus maybe that interface could be a possibility?
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I'm not sure that thought modelling is such a great idea...although I'm sure it will arrive at some point. Many of the best artistic solutions are the result of 'happy accidents' as we try to imperfectly replicate on paper what's in our heads. In most cases these surpass the original vision.
If all that thought modelling achieves is to save the trouble of moving a mouse or trackball around, then that's even worse. A generation ago, many designers spent all day standing at a drafting table. Not only did this involve moving all of both arms around (not just the fingers and wrist of one hand) but it also entailed constant, unconscious shifting of weight. This exercises the legs, the abdomen and the back muscles in a small but relentless manner. It's positively aerobic compared to what goes on today.
Human Evolution.
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A bit off topic, but I love this chair (which I use at my studio) for this very reason -- in encourages a ton of movement and keeps muscles working all day.
Best,
Jason. -
more gestures , less pointing at things on the screen with a mouse/keyboard.
I know it probably sounds meh to most people right now but I believe it's the future. apple's implementation is already very good but they're keeping it sort of basic for now.. I think it's in the stepping stone phase..
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more detail Jeff...?
I recently used Mike's Mac and I must admit the tactile nature of swiping, shrinking etc., is a very natural task. If SketchUp was to recognize swipes/pinches that would be cool. I don't want to draw just undo/cut/copy/hide/unhide...basic repeatable tasks
I used that CAD Control app for the iPad at times but I just didn't adopt to it.
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We used to have such programs, called draftspersons (formally draftsmen). These programs understood the designers' mind and created drawings and feedback consistent with the designers' style and other design directions that could be input by simple sketches, naming traditional styles, vague cultural references, and even hand gestures.
(Unfortunately they were very expensive, had unaccountable downtime, and could be unstable at times.)
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Neo... follow the white rabbit.
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Or the other way around ... work 1 hour a day, go to gym for couple of hours and learn more interesting things and get a life
I want to say technologies can empowered the users, at all level. Architects license still need for long time, there must be someone who do judgement and take resposibility, which computer can't do for sure.
Let's see this research, very interesting they use SketchUp also:
http://vladlen.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/architecture-video.mov
http://vladlen.org/projects/procedural-modeling/
http://vladlen.org/papers/architecture-slides.pdf - SlidesRhino's grasshopper users may familiar with this. I see many generate 1,000+ schematic design to find the best planning, design that fit context, ROI, energy reservation, etc, all done with these AI. But at the end of the day, it's the architect who realized it.
Updated: From the slides, it seem the demo house use up to 100,000 iterations by the AI!!! I'm love my brain so much now
In theory, any thing that can systemetically explained can become procedural.
Do you noticed that there're patterns even our everyday life ?
It's good to have pattern, so we can focus our time on useful stuffs. These AI also. -
Trimble, let's buy this team it is a very nice companion with SketchUp!
I wish I can model a pretty decent rabbit in a few minutes for years.
Otherwise, I bet Autodesk or Pixology would get it pretty fast
RigMesh: putting the fun back into rigging
http://youtu.be/HbOXMuwQlyE
http://www.cgchannel.com/category/news/Download for Free!
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4964558/rigmesh_v1.01.zip
(official links, they're so new and even don't settled a website yet!) -
@alan fraser said:
A generation ago, many designers spent all day standing at a drafting table. [...] It's positively aerobic compared to what goes on today.
It could be possible that we'll be moving away from computers again. I mean, most people don't work anymore in front of computers big like refrigerators, but it tends to go into the direction of screens almost as flat as paper and the computer either inside the screen or inside the phone.
I could imagine that modeling with gestures and sixth sense technologies could be like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzFpg271sm8&t=1m
Far more physical! (if we want to make our future like this) What is the purpose of technological progress if integrate virtuality/computing so much into the physical world that the technology becomes almost invisible? The only thing that remains is that we can overcome the limitations of matter! All virtual reality objects can be more precise/perfect, and they can be annihilated, multiplicated and reset to any historic state!
I wish that SketchUp and Trimble try being on top of current technology and make the modeling experience more connected to the physical object.
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@alan fraser said:
Many of the best artistic solutions are the result of 'happy accidents' as we try to imperfectly replicate on paper what's in our heads. In most cases these surpass the original vision.
[aside]This would also make a wonderful quote to epitomise the whole British building industry - all gung-ho and gongs.[/aside]
@alan fraser said:
If all that thought modelling achieves is to save the trouble of moving a mouse or trackball around, then that's even worse.
That's a pretty sad thought. The computer is the closest thing to a brain and the internet the closest to a global brain. And yet its only perceived use in this area is some kind of remote control for an invisible prosthetic hand.
How about this? Many buildings are designed to provide the maximum permissible square feet. Within this, areas are allocated based on square foot allowances per person (including allowances for circulation, toilets or whatever). These allowances are rules of thumb that seem to work (happy accidents) but does anyone really know? What is considered excellent may actually be mediocre.
But if the computer is given access to components like desks, toilet pans and human models, reusable regulations and other restraints, designers can set criteria like: workspaces as big as possible, toilets as small as possible, cost less than 20M Drachma, completion by July 2012. The computer then has its opportunity to compute and display design solutions. Contrary to conventional wisdom automating this part of the design process produces not one-size-fits-all but millions of possibilities that need to be reduced by applying new and resetting existing critieria - which might be called thought modelling.
Movable and interchangeable 3D components are an important part of this kind of idea. So it may be off-the-wall but at least not off-topic - new home new use.
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Yes, I can certainly see the point and usefulness of that scenario, Chris. But surely that could already be achieved with present technology...some kind of Super-Revit that treats the entire building like some kind of parametised part? Just enter all such requirements into a ginormous spreadsheet and let it rip; no electrodes necessary.
Personally, I'd prefer the kind of systems that others are hinting at...large, dafting-board-sized monitors with pinch, flick and squeeze technology that merge seamlessly with other devices...and preferably with the kind of easy-on-the-eye display now being developed for E-Book readers.
Where thought-modelling might really come into its own is for people with certain physical disabilities who would have problems with flicks or even present input methods. And I can certainly see thought-control being of use in software that has to deal with rapidly-changing parameters...like navigation or weapons systems. -
@alan fraser said:
large, dafting-board-sized monitors with pinch, flick and squeeze technology that merge seamlessly with other devices...and preferably with the kind of easy-on-the-eye display now being developed for E-Book readers.
.this, but i think the size wants to be ledger (maybe larger - 18x24 or arch size, for fixed placement) - tough book e-ink reader for PDFs, DXF, DWG, and 3d? job site slates. with measuring tools (drawings would be to scale to begin with), notation tools, etc. basic email / messaging on board. ability to do area / linear / volume calculations. and maybe they talk to the leica disto type lasers / measuring devices.
currently the iPad works for some of this - but it is too small, and too cumbersome to attach notes / mark ups with a finger (typing is OK). works great for photos, 3d drawings ported over from SketchUp to SimLab, PDFs, etc.
big slate in the job trailer, smaller slates, connected to the job trailer server via wifi, and a dropbox like file server that can sync the slates. waterproof (tricky, as a touch screen is nearly useless when wet), maybe with a stylus in addition to finger gestures.
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I suppose, how we work (design) in the far future will depend on how we evolve. I read here that we have finished evolving here but don't think this is the case as people are getting taller by the generation. I would be curious to learn if the gray matter is also increasing.
We have all seen the various images of what humans may look like in the far future but I came across a new one today. At least this 'future' human has an enlarged 'Spatulate Index Finger' ..... ideal for working with a Mac. No comment on the other enhanced appendages
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@alan fraser said:
Yes, I can certainly see the point and usefulness of that scenario, Chris. But surely that could already be achieved with present technology.
Well I agree that it could but it requires a radical change in approach, something as radical as turning counter service grocery stores into supermarkets, where enabled by bar codes much of the system is essentially the interaction of suppliers' labels and customers' selections based on need, budget and so forth.
A similar approach in the building industry is more suited to the characteristics of the Internet than a proprietary application understandably tied to its computer aided design drafting (CADD) origins (and of course there is always the uncertainty about owners' intentions).
@alan fraser said:
...some kind of Super-Revit that treats the entire building like some kind of parametised part? Just enter all such requirements into a ginormous spreadsheet and let it rip;
A new approach would be to select from what is available what fits with the design criteria. Only a machine can handle the vast number of identities and data from diverse sources; so that is the first hurdle to overcome before embarking on the more mind expanding criteria element.
@alan fraser said:
... no electrodes necessary.
Yes I read the post again and I apologise for misinterpreting it. (Electrodes somehow seemed to inspire discussion of computers supplementing or augmenting* the human mind)
*extract - All of the features of NLS were in support of Engelbart's goal of augmenting collective knowledge work and therefore focused on making the user more powerful, not simply on making the system easier to use.
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For some update:
After review FMX 2012. The world of film making is going up side down this year, they're moving to virtual production. And the best thing is...
After some proved successful inproduction. Most of the stage designers in film are converting to SketchUp! There're a lot of those film makers talked about SketchUp everywhere.
http://youtu.be/xD71XVbUWOY - at 0:18
http://area.autodesk.com/fmx2012#ooid=RxZDNvNDqppgJdMmwmZyVD3jxsnwiYg5&ootime=30m30s - FMX2012 Upside Down Worldbuilding for Independent movies @ 30:30 and many times.I don't know what Trimble have in mind.
But please, Mr. John Bacus (I hope you're still monitoring this thread)... informed this to Trimble. There're a lot opportunities there too. I think they need to be informed a lot about SketchUp possibilities to widen the vision, SketchUp is not only useful for just GIS or AEC anymore.
Leave them now is like throw away money and a lot of exposure to software and Trimble -
So after learning of the Trimble deal in Catchup and being stunned. I read though this whole thread.
Some say it's useless. Well this is a forum so discussing is never useless, it's the purpose in fact. If nothing else it shows what people think, feel, wish, etc..
Now is it useless to the deal and the future, who knows? In any case it is pure speculation.
Having done many similar deals in the software arena, and with M&A, I personally am nonetheless very worried, (hence part of the "stunning") and yet that is more speculation anyway. We just don't know the future, period, and it could be anything.So why stunned, since after all it is just a piece of software and it goes from a private company to another, and according to the posts here (as I just learned) Google was not super supportive to start with. Well I can put it this way. Outside of the specialized building community, which will find a solution to its needs regardless, and speaking for he hobbyists and masses, Google for all its flaws helped expand on the vision of making design easy and simple, yet modular, flexible and powerful accessible to a wide number of people. It helped create a repository of existing models and it helped (directly or not) to create a pool of talents to further the product (short arguably of doing it themselves). For that they can be commended. Google also has a track, even though they are private and for profit, to give people in general access to technology. Their business model being a derivation of that principle in most cases.So while they could have done better it seems, I believe that they contributed significantly. And that is done and acquired.
So that is what was good about Google and how it further helped the great original software that SU was.Now we're here at a new fork in the road. Who knows what will happen. Trimble doesn't seem to have the mass benefit business model at its core, it doesn't seem particularly concerned with the visionary issues of simplicity and flexibility. Actually they rather are in a very narrow specific sector of the world of design . This said, could they further the global cause? Of course they could, it's possible but it would also represent some change and departure from where they seem to be. Will it? We hope. Are they saying they will, yes they are, so good.
This notwithstanding it may be too that the design focus narrows (more towards buildings, etc..) as the result of corporate and business decisions, and while that may still be good for our pro building designer friends here as they expressed it, it may change the focus nonetheless. thus the hobbyists, the woodworkers, the ironworkers, and all the other vast numbers of SU users may not benefit as much. It may also be that they retain or realize and even capitalize on the much broader audience that they now acquired. Time and actions will tell, and it seems the pressure from the team will certainly be there. Great!In the mean time I think it is incumbent upon us, the community of user, to make sure they perfectly understand who we are, if they haven't already.
that was wisely started already with the poll of usage type.
As such I will start a thread where we can show what SU means to us. Hopefully it will also help them get a real picture. It will also be an homage to the SU team and give them standing points should they ever need it in the future.It is kind of similar to new feature list in a sense but not quite. As for wish list I would say, keep it with a friendly interface at all cost, no specific, complicated, dedicated, esoteric solutions (autocad?). SU thrives on its simple and intuitive interface, it should be a priority for SU as well as us plugin developper. I know it's hard, for once the piece of code work, it's only half done, but I believe it is important. Also keep it widespread (multi platform not only compatible but identical, there are already gaps forming) and flexible (Ruby API is awesome, C, C++ or other is okay as long as it's an option, not a replacement (again simplicity, not regression, yes C might be more powerful, but for some of us, it's would just stop the creativity, as an extra option, great!)).
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@michaelv said:
As for wish list I would say, keep it with a friendly interface at all cost, no specific, complicated, dedicated, esoteric solutions (autocad?). SU thrives on its simple and intuitive interface, it should be a priority for SU as well as us plugin developper.
+1 The simplicity of the interface is imho what makes SU so popular, it's the cad equivalent of being given a pencil, paper and ruler; basic tools that do their job without bogging down the design process by burying a command three layers down in one of several menus so the action ends up being slower than actually just drawing what you need.
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Simplicity no longer stands for SU. A screen packed with plugin dialogs of all different kinds and overlapping functionality. Well, there is a whole world around SU that has done what Sketchup was lacking. For daily use in an architects office SU is not just plug and play if you like to keep up with your colleagues.
Far from simple is the material palette for Mac (OSX) users. Incredibly slow, clumsy and unfriendly to use. And often enough posted about is the general slowness of working with a larger models. In 2012 other applications can materialize a complex model in a matter of minutes, nicely arranged in a hierarchy of grouped materials. Other applications can have dozens of detailed trees in a model hardly slowing down your workflow. And there are many more frustrations that Sketchup should have gotten rid of by now.
Sketchup is great for its modeling tools that are intuitive and work so well with instant visual feedback in shaded perspective view. I had a forum discussion on the Vectorworks board a while back and there the general consensus was that working in a 3D wireframe in projected views was really best. They were all used to it. To them a shaded perspective as a modeling environment would would be a step back. Obviously nobody really takes Vectorworks as a 3D app very serious anymore although once (as MiniCad years ago) it also had very promising tools combining 2 and 3D. The same could happen to SU if development is stalling. If SU does not move ahead with the qualities it already has it will also eventually be a package for just the accustomed users.
The new home for Sketchup may arrive just in time. Lets hope Trimble is the right company to move ahead.
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