A new home for SketchUp
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.you have to use another software if 100% true curves are required.
simple as that.Is 100% curve even possible?
yeah.. it is..
(though on screen it's not totally possible because pixels are square.. when output to a robot saw though, the cuts can be absolutely true)[edit] a sort of similar problem comes up in nurbs apps.. the surfaces shown on screen are actually render meshes.. basically, they look like sketchup surfaces.. but the underlying calculations are there so when output, the true surfaces will be cut/printed)… likewise, when inferencing and what not, sometimes things will appear not to line up in the nurbs app because of the render mesh being used to represent the surface whereas intersecting with the surface is actually determined by the true surface… basically, with nurbs apps, learn to trust the wires and ignore the surfaces
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@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.you have to use another software if 100% true curves are required.
simple as that.Yes, I mentioned that already.
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@d12dozr said:
@unknownuser said:
...Still not a real curve...
3D printers all have a print resolution. You just need to make sure your line segments in SU are smaller than that resolution. For example, Shapeways White, Strong & Flexible material has a print resolution of 0.2 mm, so you just make sure all your line segments are smaller than .02 mm and you're good.
Also, when you export to STL (which is what format most 3D printers use), the model is converted into a mesh, meaning true curves are lost anyway. This is true even if you model in Rhino or any software that uses real curves.
This I was not sure about, I did mention that I had not tried 3D printing myself. Good information for sure, thanks
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@ecuadorian said:
Still, Michael Gibson, who created Rhino as an employee for McNeel, has created a new modeler called MoI, completely rethinking the UI and way of working.
If something go wrong...
I ever think something like SketchUp ability + Moi curvy nurbs is ideal. Join force?
I bet they would gain a good amount from something like Kickstarter.com
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@unknownuser said:
@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
Really, that fixes it? Never would have guessed.
Still not a real curve, no matter how many times you roll your eyes.you have to use another software if 100% true curves are required.
simple as that.Is 100% curve even possible?
yeah.. it is..
(though on screen it's not totally possible because pixels are square.. when output to a robot saw though, the cuts can be absolutely true)[edit] a sort of similar problem comes up in nurbs apps.. the surfaces shown on screen are actually render meshes.. basically, they look like sketchup surfaces.. but the underlying calculations are there so when output, the true surfaces will be cut/printed)… likewise, when inferencing and what not, sometimes things will appear not to line up in the nurbs app because of the render mesh being used to represent the surface whereas intersecting with the surface is actually determined by the true surface… basically, with nurbs apps, learn to trust the wires and ignore the surfaces
Knowing the 3d printer capabilities you can tweak the final output. All of my models for my side business Hobby Fuzion http://www.shapeways.com/shops/hobbyfuzion are made in Sketchup. Designed for the tabletop, the models are perfectly round to the touch and I use about a 64 segment circle for these to conserve polygon count (some are old and the early Shapeways had tighter poly limits that they have increased over the years). The original .STL plugin was from a request I made on the old @Last forums years ago
Course while the sample models are not very detailed on my shop (that was mainly due to resoluztion limits, not lack of Sketchup capacity), the test planet/moon model was a hollowed half-sphere base in Sketchup and surface detailed in Zbrush from a picture of the Moon made into an alpha brush. I've also made some jewlery for familiy (not shown) usine Shapeways silver printing that had curves without facets so it's doable. -
@findthong said:
@ecuadorian said:
Still, Michael Gibson, who created Rhino as an employee for McNeel, has created a new modeler called MoI, completely rethinking the UI and way of working.
If something go wrong...
I ever think something like SketchUp ability + Moi curvy nurbs is ideal. Join force?
I bet they would gain a good amount from something like Kickstarter.combasically, Moi is already that. I mean, it's not exactly sketchup like but at the same time, it does have a similar feel.
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@unknownuser said:
@d12dozr said:
3D printers all have a print resolution. You just need to make sure your line segments in SU are smaller than that resolution. For example, Shapeways White, Strong & Flexible material has a print resolution of 0.2 mm, so you just make sure all your line segments are smaller than .02 mm and you're good.
Also, when you export to STL (which is what format most 3D printers use), the model is converted into a mesh, meaning true curves are lost anyway. This is true even if you model in Rhino or any software that uses real curves.
This I was not sure about, I did mention that I had not tried 3D printing myself. Good information for sure, thanks
The advantage that Rhino (or similar tools) has over SU in this case is resolution is set when you export, and you can adjust it automatically. In SU, you have to preplan the resolution, and its not easy to edit if you need to.
Its also worth noting that only the model line segments need to be smaller than the printer resolution on curves - on flat surfaces the segments can be as long as you need them to be and the model won't look faceted.
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@unknownuser said:
basically, Moi is already that. I mean, it's not exactly sketchup like but at the same time, it does have a similar feel.
Interesting... I was try it long time ago and thought it just suitable for objects like furnitures.
Do you means Moi could also be use for doing full architectural modeling, with a lot of objects, in Moi3d ?
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@findthong said:
@unknownuser said:
basically, Moi is already that. I mean, it's not exactly sketchup like but at the same time, it does have a similar feel.
Interesting... I was try it long time ago and thought it just suitable for objects like furnitures.
Do you means Moi could also be use for doing full architectural modeling, with a lot of objects, in Moi3d ?
yeah.. maybe not quite yet.
it's lacking in groups/components as well as layers so the main problem with having a whole bunch of objects in moi is organizing them..
hopefully some of these types of features will come to moi.. -
@d12dozr said:
Also, when you export to STL (which is what format most 3D printers use), the model is converted into a mesh, meaning true curves are lost anyway. This is true even if you model in Rhino or any software that uses real curves.
yeah, i've seen that before (a model with a gazillion polys from rhino for 3d printing)
personally, i've never had anything printed in 3D.. my only experience with computer->robot has been with CNC..
in which case, i believe the cuts come out exactly as defined by the software (rhino in my case).. and if they aren't, if they're switched to segmentation, i definitely couldn't tell by looking at/feeling the cuts.. -
Normal: what's that again?
@mike lucey said:
@mark h. said:
@mike lucey said:
Just read through the - Transfer of licenses and personal data to Trimble - here, http://sketchup.google.com/usernotice.html
However I am still a little confused. I realise that its probably not possible to pin down a closing date. Certain times have been mentioned but nothing concrete. Would it not make more sense to have a 1 week post closing date dead line? This would in my opinion be more normal practice with these sort of things?
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@jason_maranto said:
At some point in the future anybody (as in layman) will be able to tell a computer exactly what type of buildings, rooms, furnishings, etc. they envision -- the computer will just adapt the design in realtime, and most likely be able to run complex simulations from this data that we can only dream of. Manual modeling will be redundant (for the most part).
@unknownuser said:
so i believe you're right.. many,many designers/architects/engineers etc may find themselves out of a job unless they step up their game..
I doubt that will ever happen. The average "lay-person" is just that...they lack the specialized knowledge that a designer/architect brings to the table. No computer program will ever replace that. Sure a software can facilitate in making thing and informing design decisions, but inputting parameters into a software and getting out a building or object will result in an ugly environment without the trained eye of a designer.
As it is, a "layman" can probably input parameters for a stair and get this:
http://www.cn-granite.com/upfiles/images/Construction%20Stone/Granite%20Stairs/Stair13-Indoor%20Granite%20Step%20&%20stair.jpgBut a designer can input parameters for a stair and get this:
http://www.contemporist.com/2011/11/21/cantilevered-stairs-by-nastasi-architects/ -
Funny how you trust a company with all your data and suddenly all of that is sold to another company and you must accept it if you want to keep using the product.
I'm not complaining, just pointing out a hard reality that is becoming increasingly common.
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@ecuadorian said:
Funny how you trust a company with all your data and suddenly all of that is sold to another company and you must accept it if you want to keep using the product.
I'm not complaining, just pointing out a hard reality that is becoming increasingly common.
especially with banks.. we basically have two or three banks left in the u.s.
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@ecuadorian said:
Funny how you trust a company with all your data and suddenly all of that is sold to another company and you must accept it if you want to keep using the product.
I'm not complaining, just pointing out a hard reality that is becoming increasingly common.
Which is a main reason I will NOT use Cloud computing, Facebook, etc. Theys gots U by the short and curlies.
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Regarding the continuing discussion on "true curves".....
Other than turning on a lathe, or drilling a hole, there is no such thing as a true curve in machining a part.
All manual mills and NC machines go from X1-Y1-Z1 to X2-Y2-Z2 in a discrete straight line.
That line may be very very short, and will look smooth when done. Just like the "smooth" face joins in SU.Keep the design segment length at or below the machines resolution, and the NC s/w will compensate to provide a smooth looking surface. But it is not smooth, and you can feel the flats, even if they were 1/1000 in. I've sent countless parts back for hand polishing to smooth a machined surface that had to be smooth, such as a mating face or a cam face, when I was in QC at an aircraft manufacturer.
Where a very smooth curve is actually needed, the designers leave excess material on that surface to be polished smooth in an NC grinder operation, which may go through multiple passes and grades of grit to get the end smoothness needed.
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I was torn between posting and not posting this message.
In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have for a couple of reasons. Venting (even in a professional manner) will probably not help the SketchUp community or the people that are part of the SketchUp team, and my comments will not change the reality of the acquisition.
I can say that our experience pre and post acquisition was indicative of others that become part of Trimble before and after the time of the acquisition of the entity I was with, within the division we all made up. These were my observations garnered through interactions and discussions with others within the division as well as corporate. But as someone else pointed out, it's all perspective. I wouldn't consider myself disgruntled, perhaps educated would be a better term. The real question is what was the environment like with Google? That's something none of us can answer, if it was similar then experience may be a rewarding one for the SketchUp team and positive for community.
BIMMER
@bimmer said:
I feel sorry for the SketchUp team (or anyone being acquired by Trimble). I worked for a company that was acquired by these guys and let me tell you things will change in a big way and not for the better. I hope the SketchUp experience is different of course, but our company was in the middle of a pretty heavy acquisition spree by Trimble, and I was visible to a lot during that time.
Trimble is excellent at acquisition’s, that's primarily how they fuel growth. They are however culturally deficient when it comes to integrating the technology and people that come along with an acquisition into the larger operations of a segment, division or the company as a whole, it's just not part of their DNA.
Their standard operating procedure is to close the acquisition to much fanfare, have a rally the troops meeting with the affected staff, and begin to make subtle changes (updated branding, alter legalese, change payment processing, alter credit terms, etc.). Within 9 to 12 months the acquired entity will go through a reduction in force of some kind to improve operating income (all areas are typically impacted).
Management will be driven to increase top line (drive revenue) at all costs, and improve bottom line by maintaining required operating income levels and increasing margin primarily through layering additional work responsibilities on remaining employees and limiting any additional headcount for as long as possible. Additional hires for example have to be approved by the CEO directly and can take months to approve, if they're ever approved.
During this time the entity will have to work within the bureaucratic nightmare that is Trimble corporate. This is where the dysfunctional family comes in. Legal, Finance and HR stay focused on "protecting the business". In fact, to corporate you’re the enemy. Managers will have to deal with insane credit policies, overly protective lawyers that dictate the terms of a sales contract, and HR staff with a focus on "documenting issues" (referred to as the charm squad internally) to ensure the company is safe from disgruntled employee litigation.
General Managers wield a lot of power; they manage their divisions/segments with a strict focus on milking as much money (top and bottom line) as possible within as short a period as possible of the acquisition. Career development, product growth, service to the client, operational efficiency, all becomes low to no priority. In many respects, the General Managers are like absentee landlords, they come around close to the end of the quarter to collect the rent (revenue targets). If the rent looks like it'll be paid in full (targets attained), they will leave you alone, if it looks like you're short on your rent, they'll provide you "help" to make sure you do pay in full. Growth is expected quarter over quarter, and year over year, regardless of seasonality.
Destructive personalities are not dealt with, especially from Sales Managers. Sales carries a VERY BIG STICK, and you'll deal with some Sales Managers that are not just complete morons, but are very destructive to employee morale. Yet, they will hold a lot of sway with the General Manager of a division because they're the one's responsible for bringing in the dollars. In many respects, it appears that the General Managers surround themselves with people that could never hope to grow into their role, so they don’t have the risk of ever losing it until they’ve moved up to a Vice President/executive level.
After a while, arbitrary dates will be set for product releases to ensure revenue targets can be attained for a given quarter, with compromises made to ensure the date is achieved.
All the while, the original culture will slowly become "Trimbleized" and good talent will start to flee in droves (compare the pre and post acquisition turnover rate and you'll be shocked at the trend).
Trimble is terrified of Autodesk, and this would be the main driver behind the SketchUp acquisition. Expect the "FREE" version to garner less attention over the next 24 months as focus shifts to ramping up revenue (either through integration of the SketchUp IP to shore up some deficient products or by driving new releases of the product to grow market share).
While they'll promise the sun, the moon and the stars during the courting process, you'll be lucky if they deliver on a third of it after 12 to 24 months. Good luck, hope for the best, plan for the worst.
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@Bimmer: So are you still with the company that's part of Trimble? Are there any constructive comments you can offer based on your experience?
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I like it too. I wish I had a reason for it but I don't
Such a clean interface and very usable. I guess I could make a use for it. SU does pretty much what I need (arch wise).@unknownuser said:
If something go wrong...
I ever think something like SketchUp ability + Moi curvy nurbs is ideal. Join force?
I bet they would gain a good amount from something like Kickstarter.combasically, Moi is already that. I mean, it's not exactly sketchup like but at the same time, it does have a similar feel.[/quote]
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