Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@andybot said:
God is a human construct, no matter which way and by which society it gets constructed.
You are wrong, 'andybot', that is an IDOL...!
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@alan fraser said:
Theology is fiction.
It sounds like you're basically taking this as a given - a sort of a priori truth. If that's indeed your starting point, then that will certainly affect the lens through which you view everything.
@unknownuser said:
You can't get away from the fact. It doesn't matter how much you have studied ancient texts and wrestled with the precise meaning of words. It doesn't matter how well-reasoned or rational your arguments may seem...
You seem to be admitting here that no argument, no matter how reasonable and rational could ever sway you. Again, if you're 1st principle is that all theology is fiction, this may make sense. However, I'm not sure I've ever met someone who understands the exact nature of their bias so well and yet persists in it. Am I perhaps misunderstanding what you're saying?
@unknownuser said:
be they by historical figures like Thomas Aquinas or modern apologists like William Lane craig...they are all based upon an irrational and utterly unproveable premise...that there is a deity...and what is more, that it's your deity and not the other guy's. It's the ultimate house built on sand.
If you understand things from my perspective, I believe there's good historical evidence that Jesus was resurrected and go from there. There are side issues which further convince me but this is my central foundation and I don't believe it's sandy at all. It hasn't been the point of this thread so far, but I've yet to hear an alternative that fits the historical facts better than the resurrection.
@unknownuser said:
If it turns out that there is a god, then one thing is for sure...
Herm...perhaps I did misunderstand your a priori position?
@unknownuser said:
he will have very little in common with any of those concocted by the limited imagination of man.
Well, if we're hypothesizing here, wouldn't it be just as valid to suggest that if there's a God, he'd be fully capable of communicating with us? Maybe we couldn't fully understand him but that doesn't mean we couldn't understand him at all.
-Brodie
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EVERY human 'construct' of God is equivalent == an IDOL, [if you will].
Cornel,
What proof do you have that YOUR VERY OWN SPECIAL VERSION of God is the EXACTLY CORRECT one... and that anybody else's is therefore COMPLETELY WRONG, and invalid?
Your only proof is that your scriptures tell you so !
It's a circular argument removed from critical investigation.
That ISN'T proof - it's assumption !
For Christ sake... please, please, get real!!!!!!!!
What planet do you live on
You are as big an apostate of common-sense, as the atheists are of 'belief' ! -
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Theology being fiction is an a priori truth...because that is the default position. Once again, it's not up to rationalists to disprove the existence of god. I can't to do that anymore than I can disprove the existence of any other invisible, magical being. It's the proponent that has to provide the proof, not the other way around.
Are you suggesting that Thor and Odin are not fiction?...or Vishnu or Kali, or Zeus, or Xipe Totec the flayed one...or any of the thousands of other deities out there?
It's up to theists to prove that theology isn't a fiction by proving the existence of god...their god, specific to their particular theology. If they can't prove it, then everything that follows, however cogent the arguments, is mere speculation and mental exercise. You might as well be discussing the finer points of other mythical constructs, like Star Trek or Tolkien.
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@alan fraser said:
. You might as well be discussing the finer points of other mythical constructs, like Star Trek or Tolkien.
I'd rather prefer that, it would be much more fun.
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I agree with Marian, this thread is about worn out. A Tolkien discussion would be cool ...
Cheers.
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@tig said:
Cornel,
What proof do you have that YOUR VERY OWN SPECIAL VERSION of God is the EXACTLY CORRECT one... and that anybody else's is therefore COMPLETELY WRONG, and invalid?
Your only proof is that your scriptures tell you so !God tells you so: "[Test Me, says the LORD Almighty, and you will see!]"
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@idahoj said:
I agree with Marian, this thread is about worn out. A Tolkien discussion would be cool ...
Cheers.
Mike just throws these stones in our path to increase the activity in his bar.
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@unknownuser said:
God tells you so: "[Test Me, says the LORD Almighty, and you will see!]"
CornelWhat kind of test?
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@gilles said:
What kind of test?
It is up to you, 'gilles'...
Ask God for something serious, with all your heart,
being prepared to give Him thanks, proper honor,
praise and glory...!Give to God the supreme position in your life,
and He will give you everything you ask! -
@alan fraser said:
Theology being fiction is an a priori truth...because that is the default position.
That's not a very good determiner of what makes an a priori truth. The 'default position' is also that the sun rises and sets but that doesn't make it necessarily true.
@unknownuser said:
Once again, it's not up to rationalists to disprove the existence of god. I can't to do that anymore than I can disprove the existence of any other invisible, magical being. It's the proponent that has to provide the proof, not the other way around.
Do you see the difference between saying 'it's up to you to prove God exists' and 'It doesn't matter how well-reasoned or rational your arguments may seem...'
@unknownuser said:
Are you suggesting that Thor and Odin are not fiction?...or Vishnu or Kali, or Zeus, or Xipe Totec the flayed one...or any of the thousands of other deities out there?
I am indeed suggesting that they are fictional as such, although I'm open to a number of possibilities to explain their existence. Some may be made up, some may be throw backs to an earlier authentic knowledge of a true God, and others may have originated via demonic manifestations to draw people from God. Regardless, I don't have to disprove them for myself because if the Bible is correct it's clear that they don't exist in any real sense.
@unknownuser said:
It's up to theists to prove that theology isn't a fiction by proving the existence of god...their god, specific to their particular theology. If they can't prove it, then everything that follows, however cogent the arguments, is mere speculation and mental exercise. You might as well be discussing the finer points of other mythical constructs, like Star Trek or Tolkien.
It's an illogical position to accept a priori that theology is fiction and then require of someone that they prove their theology is not fiction.
-Brodie
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In the beginning was the 110 .. or 42?, and the 110 .. or 42? was with the 110 .. or 42?, and the 110 .. or 42? was the 110 .. or 42?.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. It really is as simple as that...and it's not remotely illogical. Nor is it the rationalists making the unsubstantiated claims. I'll believe that the sun traverses the sky every day because of planetary motion (because that can be proven) until somebody can show me that it's actually Amun Ra giving it a lift in his chariot.
If a theist cannot even demonstrate something as basic as the existence his god, then it follows no one in earlier times was able to do so either...or such evidence would be to hand. It then follows perfectly logically that all the theology that has grown up around that god is equally insubstantial...and all the catch-phrases, sophistry, rhetoric and running around it circular arguments isn't going to change that.
What earlier knowledge of a true god? This is the biggest con-trick of all...that ancient peoples somehow had this secret, profound knowledge that somehow has been lost to us. No they didn't; it's straight out of some nonsense by Erik von Daniken. They were just like us, only more ignorant and superstitious...and some of them were deluded if not mentally ill. Let's face it, what do you think would happen today to someone who came within an inch of disembowelling his son because some voices in his head told him to do so?
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@alan fraser said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. It really is as simple as that...and it's not remotely illogical.
Firstly, if we're talking about the resurrection it must be understood that the matter relies totally on the difference in our presuppositions. As you presuppose there is no God, the resurrection is necessarily an extraordinary - even impossible - claim. As I presuppose a God does exist, such a claim isn't so extraordinary if the contextual evidence suggests that it is that God doing the resurrecting.
So what would you accept as "extraordinary proof" for a historical event such as the resurrection which can't be tested in a lab or repeated?
@unknownuser said:
Nor is it the rationalists making the unsubstantiated claims. I'll believe that the sun traverses the sky every day because of planetary motion (because that can be proven) until somebody can show me that it's actually Amun Ra giving it a lift in his chariot.
Right. So we don't simply presuppose that the 'default' position is true (whether the default is God or no God). We go where the evidence takes us - at least that's my position.
@unknownuser said:
If a theist cannot even demonstrate something as basic as the existence his god, then it follows no one in earlier times was able to do so either...
No, that absolutely does notfollow. Certainly if Jesus rose from the dead he proved the existence of God in a way I no longer can. I can give historical evidence of the event but I can't reproduce it for you.
We can't even say with complete certainty that we have a total record of all the philosophical arguments that have been made. I'm not trying to argue that some fool proof method was established and lost, but it's not logical to say that because an argument doesn't exist now, no one has ever made an argument that would fit your criteria. The 'secret' to making concrete was lost of hundreds of years after the Romans had invented it.
Nor, do I think it's even logical for you to assume that no argument even currently exits which adequately explains the existence of God. Certainly for many people those arguments do exist. Anthony Flew, for example was greatly swayed by the teleological argument. So perhaps you haven't heard all of the arguments. Or even if you have, perhaps the problem isn't with the arguments but rather with you - perhaps your standards are unreasonably high.
@unknownuser said:
What earlier knowledge of a true god? This is the biggest con-trick of all...that ancient peoples somehow had this secret, profound knowledge that somehow has been lost to us. No they didn't; it's straight out of some nonsense by Erik von Daniken. They were just like us, only more ignorant and superstitious...and some of them were deluded if not mentally ill. Let's face it, what do you think would happen today to someone who came within an inch of disembowelling his son because some voices in his head told him to do so?
As I mentioned in the case of concrete, it's not unheard of for knowledge to 'disappear.' Likewise, as cultures change and develop it's possible for their collective knowledge and stories to be adapted over time - particularly if we're talking about thousands of years, many cultural splits, and no survivable written language. You seem to have a very low view of ancient people which I don't hold to.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
@alan fraser said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. It really is as simple as that...and it's not remotely illogical.
Firstly, if we're talking about the resurrection it must be understood that the matter relies totally on the difference in our presuppositions. As you presuppose there is no God, the resurrection is necessarily an extraordinary - even impossible - claim. As I presuppose a God does exist, such a claim isn't so extraordinary if the contextual evidence suggests that it is that God doing the resurrecting.
No, Brodie, sorry. You have a way with words, I'll give you that, but you're nonetheless glossing over the fact that the very nature of Alan's presuppositions and yours is vastly different. Yours are based on a leap of faith, which makes them inherently irrational. Alan's, on the other hand, have nothing to do with faith whatsoever -they're rooted in a tradition of empirical research and logical deduction. Equating both stances, at least to my mind, is intellectually dishonest.
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