Google is Listening!
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@unknownuser said:
Carolyn,
I want to apologize to you beforehand if my reply is going to sound a bit blunt, but reading these forums daily and most recently the response to Eight I feel something needs to be said. I realize I am not the best person to point this out given I started this website to support this product 5 years ago come September 9th, but as a supporter you need to be honest too.
I don't know how to say this in a 'nice' way but this morning when I saw this post by what appeared to be from a Google staff member, I could not believe it. People filled out Google's questionnaire, about what features are highest on their wish list some time ago. Almost none of the features that were on that list have made it into version 8. Now it may have been the case that when that list was concluded, that there was already a feature freeze for Eight, but come on, any modern day 3D application has 64 Bit support and most certainly supports more than 4 Gb of memory.
I don't understand Google. And I am speaking directly to them, certainly not the @Last core group that is still present to this day. In the days of @Last Software, if several people had the same feature request, the development team would deliver. Google says it listens, but can you honestly say this is the case?
It's hard for me to say this, given I have always backed every release since version 4. I was there when Pro users were slamming the Six release, defending it to the end. I was there when Seven came out and the same thing happened all over again. Even though I felt those two releases had good feature sets, I could not entirely disagree with the dismay of some Pro users.
Now Eight has come along and I just can't do the same anymore. Quite frankly speaking I find this post an insult for all of those people that voted in the aforementioned questionnaire. I can't speak for other people, but I can imagine if you have filled out that questionnaire last year you must feel like a complete idiot right now. You can not post something like that, then a year or so later release a product which has almost none of the features included. And when Google responds to the 64 Bit question with "What's the use of it?", you know just how well it listens.
I am not in the business of grilling the SketchUp people. I love you guys to death. After the two last releases I really believed you guys would have learned some key things about this community, about your customers. I am sorry to say that this is not the case and I honestly fear the worst. I can't speak for others, but I for one am not going to fill out another questionnaire or similar. Google already has all the answers it needs. Asking for the same thing twice is just silly.
+1...and I'll answer the same thing as Coen...take a look at the SU8 whishlist, and you'll get your answers. That's all. And Good luck for your new work Carolyn.
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@pixero said:
I just went there and J. Bacus answer for the 64bit question says it all:
"What benefit do you hope to gain from a 64-bit version of SketchUp?"They really have no clue as to real world usage of SU have they?
Why am I using Photoshop 64 bit instead of the 32 bit version?
Why am I using 3dsmax 64 bit instead of the 32 bit version?
Why? Because of memory limitations, basically.
What is so hard to understand about that?Pixero: Please be civil if you want useful interaction with the SketchUp team.
Our development team believes that a 64-bit version of SketchUp will provide little to no actual benefit to you for the majority of modeling/rendering operations. In fact, a 64-bit version of SketchUp is likely to run slower in many operations. So my question is both an accurate and relevant one. What class of operations do you hope will be improved by a move to 64-bit processing?
If what you really want is the ability to export images at higher resolutions, please ask for that. We don't really have to shift to 64-bit processing to improve image export resolution.
If what you really want is the ability to interact with larger/more complex models at interactive frame rates, please ask for that. 64-bit processing doesn't have any relevance to this problem, but we do make performance improvements in this area with every release.
john
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what I would love to know from the SU team is this.
Why Collada over OBJ in the free edition? or in general?
knowing that OBJ is used by everyone and their cat... and Collada, while written by many, is only actually read by about 7 3d apps in total, (and this is after a long search), 4 of which cost over $2000 each!
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Mr. Bacus, forgive my fellow SCF members for their passionate responses... they truly do love this software and I believe a few of them may have SketchUp tattooed on their respective dairy airs... I'm afraid they have become quite spoiled by my brothers and sisters in the Plugin Threads... They quite commonly build incredible things and normally give them freely to the community, and then support them through all hours of the night personally and without much in the way of compensation except for hero status among we mere users.
personally I find it very hard to believe that a 64bit processor with 4 or more gigs of ram will take longer to perform a function like followandkeep.rb than a 32 bit processor with 3.5 gigs of ram. this plugin takes some time to calculate all of it's faces and such... with something like a complex hand rail. I expect that when exporting 3D dwgs that it will be a shorter export time. I expect that when using software addins like Vray, that my renders will go more quickly when more ram is available. If you tell me I'm wrong and that 64bit software will not help me then I defer to your knowledge of both this software and computers in general as surely someone in your position knows more about both.
I think that you will keep hearing this question over and over until you address it in a more formal fashion... such as an open letter to users on the blog or in the news letter, laying out your reasoning for not following the 64bit road. and putting an end to the question.
Most all of the users here at SCF know well why Google bought SketchUp, as a tool to further their Google Earth and Google Maps platforms. It was not meant as a full 3D modeling and Presentation Package like 3D max and AutoCad or the many, many others that have tried to compete. However we here at SCF have made the decision that it is just that... a complete 3D package and you'll forgive us if we treat it as such and expect as much from your team in terms of development.
I know my fellow SCF users seem ungrateful at times and they may well be, but they will continue to expect great things from you and your team and the plugin creators here until you close the doors at your home office and probably long after. However make no mistake they love this software and what your team has done... I fully expect to be here reading about the DirectBrainConnector.rb plugin sometime in the near future...
In all seriousness though, I think that recognizing the requests and wishes of this community in some formal fashion will go a long way in helping them to understand why some things were done and others were not.
I would also like to thank you and your team for all your hard work and for being active here and taking part in the conversation. we don't mean to seem ungrateful... we just expect great things. and you're somewhat to blame for that.
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@khai said:
my requests.
move OBJ Import / Export to the Free Edition. since OBJ is the most common denominator for 3D interchange it makes more sense and will increase SU's usage all round.
I find OBJ export, but I don't find OBJ Importin SU8 Pro. Am I missing something basic?
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@rickgraham said:
My opinions -
- Last, but not least for me - you just can't take away features from the free version! It's just wrong. Perhaps by keeping them in and ENHANCING them in the paid version would entice users to upgrade to the paid version. I highly recommend the 'How to win friends and influence people' book.
Is this correct? Features were taken out of the free version of 8?
I know it's not very civil to complain about "free", but if I could afford the pro version, I would buy it. But I can't. So I'll have to stick with 7 for now.
I'm also still learning this program. I love it. The free version of SU is one of the most amazing things I ever seen!
But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I wish you guys would make a Linux version.
- Last, but not least for me - you just can't take away features from the free version! It's just wrong. Perhaps by keeping them in and ENHANCING them in the paid version would entice users to upgrade to the paid version. I highly recommend the 'How to win friends and influence people' book.
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@khai said:
what I would love to know from the SU team is this.
Why Collada over OBJ in the free edition? or in general?Quite simply, COLLADA is a modern, open and extensible format which lives and breathes for asset exchange. I've got no problem with .OBJ per se, but it isn't as capable as COLLADA. It certainly is older, and this means that it is more likely to be supported by a wider range of apps. But I don't see how it is fundamentally better as an exchange format.
john
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@krisidious said:
personally I find it very hard to believe that a 64bit processor with 4 or more gigs of ram will take longer to perform a function like followandkeep.rb than a 32 bit processor with 3.5 gigs of ram. this plugin takes some time to calculate all of it's faces and such... with something like a complex hand rail. I expect that when exporting 3D dwgs that it will be a shorter export time. I expect that when using software addins like Vray, that my renders will go more quickly when more ram is available. If you tell me I'm wrong and that 64bit software will not help me then I defer to your knowledge of both this software and computers in general as surely someone in your position knows more about both.
I think we (on the SketchUp team) have been fairly consistent in the position we've taken on this 64-bit issue. I know it it is hard to believe that "64-bit" doesn't magically make everything faster, but it just doesn't. Some kinds of computation benefit from 64-bits, and some do not. SketchUp modeling operations do not benefit.
john
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@jbacus said:
@khai said:
what I would love to know from the SU team is this.
Why Collada over OBJ in the free edition? or in general?Quite simply, COLLADA is a modern, open and extensible format which lives and breathes for asset exchange. I've got no problem with .OBJ per se, but it isn't as capable as COLLADA. It certainly is older, and this means that it is more likely to be supported by a wider range of apps. But I don't see how it is fundamentally better as an exchange format.
john
.but no one's using Collada!
everyone's using OBJ.put it this way. OBJ is better...because ppl are using it. Collada maybe technically better on paper.. but if no one's using it.. it's not better.
right now, to use a Collada model I have to take the DAE into Softimage Mod Tools, save out as a FBX then take the FBX into Wings3D where I can then take it to OBJ...which everything else reads without problems.
take a look. do your own research and you'll see the problem. many apps are writing DAE.. but only a few - SU is one - that reads it...
it's comical!
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@bob james said:
I find OBJ export, but I don't find OBJ Importin SU8 Pro. Am I missing something basic?
That's correct- SketchUp does not have an OBJ importer, and it never has. While it is tempting to think of import and export as being symmetrical processes, in fact they are not. An importer is considerably more complex/difficult to maintain than an exporter.
john
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sorry that was my slip up while getting excited. used to having apps (trueSpace mainly, where I learnt to model) having import/export as the usual way of doing things.
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@unknownuser said:
@ladybugz said:
Google is listening
Carolyn,
I want to apologize to you beforehand if my reply is going to sound a bit blunt, but reading these forums daily and most recently the response to Eight I feel something needs to be said. I realize I am not the best person to point this out given I started this website to support this product 5 years ago come September 9th, but as a supporter you need to be honest too.
I don't know how to say this in a 'nice' way but this morning when I saw this post by what appeared to be from a Google staff member, I could not believe it. People filled out Google's questionnaire, about what features are highest on their wish list some time ago. Almost none of the features that were on that list have made it into version 8. Now it may have been the case that when that list was concluded, that there was already a feature freeze for Eight, but come on, any modern day 3D application has 64 Bit support and most certainly supports more than 4 Gb of memory.
I don't understand Google. And I am speaking directly to them, certainly not the @Last core group that is still present to this day. In the days of @Last Software, if several people had the same feature request, the development team would deliver. Google says it listens, but can you honestly say this is the case?
It's hard for me to say this, given I have always backed every release since version 4. I was there when Pro users were slamming the Six release, defending it to the end. I was there when Seven came out and the same thing happened all over again. Even though I felt those two releases had good feature sets, I could not entirely disagree with the dismay of some Pro users.
Now Eight has come along and I just can't do the same anymore. Quite frankly speaking I find this post an insult for all of those people that voted in the aforementioned questionnaire. I can't speak for other people, but I can imagine if you have filled out that questionnaire last year you must feel like a complete idiot right now. You can not post something like that, then a year or so later release a product which has almost none of the features included. And when Google responds to the 64 Bit question with "What's the use of it?", you know just how well it listens.
I am not in the business of grilling the SketchUp people. I love you guys to death. After the two last releases I really believed you guys would have learned some key things about this community, about your customers. I am sorry to say that this is not the case and I honestly fear the worst. I can't speak for others, but I for one am not going to fill out another questionnaire or similar. Google already has all the answers it needs. Asking for the same thing twice is just silly.
+1 Coen, you've said it better than I could.
Google, you already have all the suggestions you need. Implement some of those and get back to us with v8.1, then we'll give you some more
-Brodie
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@khai said:
but no one's using Collada!
everyone's using OBJ.I think you have to define 'everyone.' What, precisely, is the workflow that you are trying to use? Where to you want your SketchUp model to end up, and for what purpose?
john
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@jbacus said:
@khai said:
but no one's using Collada!
everyone's using OBJ.I think you have to define 'everyone.' What, precisely, is the workflow that you are trying to use? Where to you want your SketchUp model to end up, and for what purpose?
john
.I make Poser content as a base, but which it being OBJ can be loaded into any application that supports OBJ. eg Maya, Lightwave, Cinema4D, Max, Hexagon, Carrara, Vue, Softimage, Blender, Wings3D, .... the list goes on. of those apps only Softimage, Max.. I think Maya and Cinema read DAE. and even then it's not guaranteed as supported as OBJ. infact for UVmapping work the 2 major UVapps UVlayout and UVmapper only support OBJ!
but from your answers I'm not holding out much hope of getting the point across.
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I think the OBJ vs. COLLADA issue is a bit of a red herring argument. I'm not a big OBJ user but it seems to me that the point shouldn't be OBJ or COLLADA and which one should be included. There's a simple solution which is to just include both. COLLADA can be there in all it's glory for when people eventually (presumably) understand it's wonders and advantages but in the meantime OBJ could be there for people who can't quite wait until the world come around to using COLLADA.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
I think the OBJ vs. COLLADA issue is a bit of a red herring argument. I'm not a big OBJ user but it seems to me that the point shouldn't be OBJ or COLLADA and which one should be included. There's a simple solution which is to just include both. COLLADA can be there in all it's glory for when people eventually (presumably) understand it's wonders and advantages but in the meantime OBJ could be there for people who can't quite wait until the world come around to using COLLADA.
-Brodie
YES thank you !
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I know Ron Popeil has invented many multi function devices like the pocket fisherman etc. and the Swiss Army knife should be in everyones camping gear, but seriously in todays day and age no one application will meet "everyones" varied needs. Sketchup will certainly NOT meet everyones needs and by the many comments here it is apparent that Many people have and use many other applications 3DStudio MAX, Maya, Blender, Cinema4d, Rhino, Softimage, XSI, Modo, ETC. ETC. ETC. as modeling software and the litany of rendering engines is growing daily, many of which are available as plug ins for Sketchup. The third party developers have written a plethora of ruby plugins and extensions for sketchup that ostensibly extend the functionality of Sketchup well beyond what anyone could have imagined just 3 years ago. We have numerous developers, technical supporters, and past @Last employees and current Google employees who visit and comment here in this private user forum. Sketchup is still by far the simplest 3d modeling application to use and with the free version and the GLOBAL user base the SKP file format is becoming a household name. Let's temper our comments and remember that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence. I made a post on the original SketchUP user forum Eight years ago which essentially went something like this "SketchUP has forever changed the way I produce and present my work to my clients" I am still using it nearly on daily basis and if you look at any recent architectural magazine that shows an architects proposed solution for XYZ project the likelihood that the image was in some way produced with SketchUP is high.
So ask yourself are you looking for SketchUP to replace 3dStudio Max or Softimage or Maya? It will never do that. Are there free applications out there that do compete on a functional level with the BIG ones YES Blender, Truespace etc. Lets be thankful for the recent additions in SU8, Let's be respectful when requesting software improvements. and Let's enjoy the software for all of the things that it does right which allows it to maintain it's place in our tool bag. Go and take a look at your tool chest I bet you have a hammer, a drill, some screw drivers, some pliers, some wrenches etc. Each of those tools serves a specific function. SketchUP is a tool and should only be one tool in your tool bag If you are serious about your craft you will find the best tool for each task and use that one. Use SketchUP where it is the best tool and use other applications where they are better.
Just my 2cents..
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@unknownuser said:
@rickgraham said:
My opinions -
- Last, but not least for me - you just can't take away features from the free version! It's just wrong. Perhaps by keeping them in and ENHANCING them in the paid version would entice users to upgrade to the paid version. I highly recommend the 'How to win friends and influence people' book.
Is this correct? Features were taken out of the free version of 8?
+2
Exactly which features were removed from 7 to 8?
- Last, but not least for me - you just can't take away features from the free version! It's just wrong. Perhaps by keeping them in and ENHANCING them in the paid version would entice users to upgrade to the paid version. I highly recommend the 'How to win friends and influence people' book.
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@unknownuser said:
I know Ron Popeil ... Just my 2cents.
Phil - I agree with your words. Hope you'll make the next BaseCamp. You were missed at the recent one.
Regards, Ross
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@unknownuser said:
So ask yourself are you looking for SketchUP to replace 3dStudio Max or Softimage or Maya? It will never do that. Are there free applications out there that do compete on a functional level with the BIG ones YES Blender, Truespace etc. Lets be thankful for the recent additions in SU8, Let's be respectful when requesting software improvements. and Let's enjoy the software for all of the things that it does right which allows it to maintain it's place in our tool bag. Go and take a look at your tool chest I bet you have a hammer, a drill, some screw drivers, some pliers, some wrenches etc. Each of those tools serves a specific function. SketchUP is a tool and should only be one tool in your tool bag If you are serious about your craft you will find the best tool for each task and use that one. Use SketchUP where it is the best tool and use other applications where they are better.
Just my 2cents..
Phil,
Well put. I think that there are those who may be asking too much of SU. Certainlythere are those who are asking too much from the free version. However, I do believe that there are a lot of requests which are quite reasonably within the scope of SU that are continually ignored. I believe that is the true frustration behind many of the comments. Google asks for suggestions and people pour forth with thought out rational requests both small and large. Then Google responds with a couple bug fixes, removes a feature, and adds some features that no one was looking for (in v7 it was dynamic blocks and in v8 it's the additional GE compatibility). Then Google comes back and asks us for more suggestions? It's like going to Subway and everytime you ask for mayo they give you lettuce and ask 'what else would you like?'
I think you make a good point that SU is one tool among many we should/must use. However, the way you describe it is pretty unique to SU users in a sense. If I'm going fishing, I need many tools (fishing pole, tackle, pliers, etc.), but I shouldn't need multiple fishing poles, for example, unless my needs are very specific. Similarly, if I'm presenting a 3d model I may need Pen/Paper (for design), AutoCAD (for 2d dimensioning), SU (for modeling), and Layout/Photoshop/Video editing software (for presentation). However, we shouldn't necessarily expect that we'll need to use multiple modeling softwares unless our needs are very specific (Zbrush for organic modeling perhaps). Being able to work on high poly models and the like aren't really what I'd consider specific (or specialized) uses and those are the things which are most requested.
-Brodie
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