Google is Listening!
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@adamb said:
I don't understand. 10000 pixel * 10000 pixel * RGBA is 400MBytes. You're doing images larger than this?
This is not possible on Windows as far as I know. My PC have 4GB ram and I can't export larger than some 4000px.
And THAT is not enough.Thomthom said it right. For me increased speed isn't what I expect from a 64bit version.
Its all a memory issue thing. Especially with third party renderers (like Vray).And Coen, thank you for stepping up and expressing what I and several other loyal SketchUp users feel about SU8.
Things like "Google is listening" and "Your wish is our demand" feels like a slap in the face.
I don't see any creativity and new thinking in the latest release.
It's more of a bug fix release that should have been free.
As I said in another post: What arguments should I tell my boss to get him to upgrade to v8?What I would wish for is some kind of discussion with the Google team about the future developments of SU.
Not just a wishlist. What do we (the users) need/want? What is possible? How can it be achieved?
Things like, Google team concentrating on the core and giving community developers even more access to enhance SketchUp in ways that cannot be done today. Or maybe going open source all together?
Or no further development for "professional users"...and then we know and can move on to other software. -
I find it interesting that SU8 was released during basecamp.
Would it not have made more sense to release it before so that people could have tried it and be able to discuss it with some experience at basecamp.
A more cynical person might suspect that it allowed basecamp to ignore the nuts and bolts of it and just get the Hype of a new release. -
@pixero said:
@adamb said:
I don't understand. 10000 pixel * 10000 pixel * RGBA is 400MBytes. You're doing images larger than this?
This is not possible on Windows as far as I know. My PC have 4GB ram and I can't export larger than some 4000px.
And THAT is not enough.Confirmed. I just attached some instrumentation to SU7, and for a 8000x5000 pixel jpeg export (NO ANTIALIASING) memory increases temporarily to 550MB (roughly what you'd expect).
However, WITH ANTIALIASING, it gets to 3.0GB allocated and counting and my Mac starts choking..
My guess its likely that Google are doing a simple supersampling to get antialiasing. eg you ask for 8000 pixels, and it actually renders internally at 8000 x 4=32000 and then filters back down to 8000 hence the insane memory requirements.
So I'd say this is a straight forward bug that you should file with Google.
Its a trivial fix for SU to render in strips so they use less memory at any 1 time.
Adam
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Ben, I rather think it was "only" connected to a kind of ceremony when th 10th anniversary of SU was also celebrated. I do not find any cynical in it though probably it was a bit "uncomfortable" at least for those participating and hearing about SU 8 the first time as many could not put on their hands on the new version.
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Thanks Csaba, I was curious to hear how those at basecamp actually felt about it.
It must have come as a bit of a shock. -
Passion runs deep in this community. SU has Come a long way from where it started. Remember when we had to FAKE transparency? because there was no such thing as having a transparent surface material. Have a look at the icon its a pencil sketching a house....that's the origins of this program. It was created as an application to make it simpler to create 3d in the computer in a method that was closer to real world than currently existing 3d modeling software. The developers and the users and the third party ruby programmers have pushed and pulled Sketchup into its current configuration, but lets not loose sight of the origins of the program. I have a mental picture here of a normal looking Honda civic un imposing but functional. and then the next picture is of a totally pimped out low riding flame throwing Honda civic pumping out jamming bass and lit up with neon lights...but under the hood it's still the simple Honda civic. SU has been pimped out but it's still a Honda civic.
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@adamb said:
Confirmed. I just attached some instrumentation to SU7, and for a 8000x5000 pixel jpeg export (NO ANTIALIASING) memory increases temporarily to 550MB (roughly what you'd expect).
Doesn't seem to be that easy - the content of the file appear to be of importance as well. Because the limit to how large I can export depends from model to model. Some exports large, some doesn't. Some, I have to export as BMP instead of any of the compressed formats. And if I want to export a second image I need to restart SU to make it work.
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@unknownuser said:
Carolyn,
I want to apologize to you beforehand if my reply is going to sound a bit blunt, but reading these forums daily and most recently the response to Eight I feel something needs to be said. I realize I am not the best person to point this out given I started this website to support this product 5 years ago come September 9th, but as a supporter you need to be honest too.
I don't know how to say this in a 'nice' way but this morning when I saw this post by what appeared to be from a Google staff member, I could not believe it. People filled out Google's questionnaire, about what features are highest on their wish list some time ago. Almost none of the features that were on that list have made it into version 8. Now it may have been the case that when that list was concluded, that there was already a feature freeze for Eight, but come on, any modern day 3D application has 64 Bit support and most certainly supports more than 4 Gb of memory.
I don't understand Google. And I am speaking directly to them, certainly not the @Last core group that is still present to this day. In the days of @Last Software, if several people had the same feature request, the development team would deliver. Google says it listens, but can you honestly say this is the case?
It's hard for me to say this, given I have always backed every release since version 4. I was there when Pro users were slamming the Six release, defending it to the end. I was there when Seven came out and the same thing happened all over again. Even though I felt those two releases had good feature sets, I could not entirely disagree with the dismay of some Pro users.
Now Eight has come along and I just can't do the same anymore. Quite frankly speaking I find this post an insult for all of those people that voted in the aforementioned questionnaire. I can't speak for other people, but I can imagine if you have filled out that questionnaire last year you must feel like a complete idiot right now. You can not post something like that, then a year or so later release a product which has almost none of the features included. And when Google responds to the 64 Bit question with "What's the use of it?", you know just how well it listens.
I am not in the business of grilling the SketchUp people. I love you guys to death. After the two last releases I really believed you guys would have learned some key things about this community, about your customers. I am sorry to say that this is not the case and I honestly fear the worst. I can't speak for others, but I for one am not going to fill out another questionnaire or similar. Google already has all the answers it needs. Asking for the same thing twice is just silly.
+1...and I'll answer the same thing as Coen...take a look at the SU8 whishlist, and you'll get your answers. That's all. And Good luck for your new work Carolyn.
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@pixero said:
I just went there and J. Bacus answer for the 64bit question says it all:
"What benefit do you hope to gain from a 64-bit version of SketchUp?"They really have no clue as to real world usage of SU have they?
Why am I using Photoshop 64 bit instead of the 32 bit version?
Why am I using 3dsmax 64 bit instead of the 32 bit version?
Why? Because of memory limitations, basically.
What is so hard to understand about that?Pixero: Please be civil if you want useful interaction with the SketchUp team.
Our development team believes that a 64-bit version of SketchUp will provide little to no actual benefit to you for the majority of modeling/rendering operations. In fact, a 64-bit version of SketchUp is likely to run slower in many operations. So my question is both an accurate and relevant one. What class of operations do you hope will be improved by a move to 64-bit processing?
If what you really want is the ability to export images at higher resolutions, please ask for that. We don't really have to shift to 64-bit processing to improve image export resolution.
If what you really want is the ability to interact with larger/more complex models at interactive frame rates, please ask for that. 64-bit processing doesn't have any relevance to this problem, but we do make performance improvements in this area with every release.
john
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what I would love to know from the SU team is this.
Why Collada over OBJ in the free edition? or in general?
knowing that OBJ is used by everyone and their cat... and Collada, while written by many, is only actually read by about 7 3d apps in total, (and this is after a long search), 4 of which cost over $2000 each!
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Mr. Bacus, forgive my fellow SCF members for their passionate responses... they truly do love this software and I believe a few of them may have SketchUp tattooed on their respective dairy airs... I'm afraid they have become quite spoiled by my brothers and sisters in the Plugin Threads... They quite commonly build incredible things and normally give them freely to the community, and then support them through all hours of the night personally and without much in the way of compensation except for hero status among we mere users.
personally I find it very hard to believe that a 64bit processor with 4 or more gigs of ram will take longer to perform a function like followandkeep.rb than a 32 bit processor with 3.5 gigs of ram. this plugin takes some time to calculate all of it's faces and such... with something like a complex hand rail. I expect that when exporting 3D dwgs that it will be a shorter export time. I expect that when using software addins like Vray, that my renders will go more quickly when more ram is available. If you tell me I'm wrong and that 64bit software will not help me then I defer to your knowledge of both this software and computers in general as surely someone in your position knows more about both.
I think that you will keep hearing this question over and over until you address it in a more formal fashion... such as an open letter to users on the blog or in the news letter, laying out your reasoning for not following the 64bit road. and putting an end to the question.
Most all of the users here at SCF know well why Google bought SketchUp, as a tool to further their Google Earth and Google Maps platforms. It was not meant as a full 3D modeling and Presentation Package like 3D max and AutoCad or the many, many others that have tried to compete. However we here at SCF have made the decision that it is just that... a complete 3D package and you'll forgive us if we treat it as such and expect as much from your team in terms of development.
I know my fellow SCF users seem ungrateful at times and they may well be, but they will continue to expect great things from you and your team and the plugin creators here until you close the doors at your home office and probably long after. However make no mistake they love this software and what your team has done... I fully expect to be here reading about the DirectBrainConnector.rb plugin sometime in the near future...
In all seriousness though, I think that recognizing the requests and wishes of this community in some formal fashion will go a long way in helping them to understand why some things were done and others were not.
I would also like to thank you and your team for all your hard work and for being active here and taking part in the conversation. we don't mean to seem ungrateful... we just expect great things. and you're somewhat to blame for that.
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@khai said:
my requests.
move OBJ Import / Export to the Free Edition. since OBJ is the most common denominator for 3D interchange it makes more sense and will increase SU's usage all round.
I find OBJ export, but I don't find OBJ Importin SU8 Pro. Am I missing something basic?
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@rickgraham said:
My opinions -
- Last, but not least for me - you just can't take away features from the free version! It's just wrong. Perhaps by keeping them in and ENHANCING them in the paid version would entice users to upgrade to the paid version. I highly recommend the 'How to win friends and influence people' book.
Is this correct? Features were taken out of the free version of 8?
I know it's not very civil to complain about "free", but if I could afford the pro version, I would buy it. But I can't. So I'll have to stick with 7 for now.
I'm also still learning this program. I love it. The free version of SU is one of the most amazing things I ever seen!
But at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I wish you guys would make a Linux version.
- Last, but not least for me - you just can't take away features from the free version! It's just wrong. Perhaps by keeping them in and ENHANCING them in the paid version would entice users to upgrade to the paid version. I highly recommend the 'How to win friends and influence people' book.
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@khai said:
what I would love to know from the SU team is this.
Why Collada over OBJ in the free edition? or in general?Quite simply, COLLADA is a modern, open and extensible format which lives and breathes for asset exchange. I've got no problem with .OBJ per se, but it isn't as capable as COLLADA. It certainly is older, and this means that it is more likely to be supported by a wider range of apps. But I don't see how it is fundamentally better as an exchange format.
john
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@krisidious said:
personally I find it very hard to believe that a 64bit processor with 4 or more gigs of ram will take longer to perform a function like followandkeep.rb than a 32 bit processor with 3.5 gigs of ram. this plugin takes some time to calculate all of it's faces and such... with something like a complex hand rail. I expect that when exporting 3D dwgs that it will be a shorter export time. I expect that when using software addins like Vray, that my renders will go more quickly when more ram is available. If you tell me I'm wrong and that 64bit software will not help me then I defer to your knowledge of both this software and computers in general as surely someone in your position knows more about both.
I think we (on the SketchUp team) have been fairly consistent in the position we've taken on this 64-bit issue. I know it it is hard to believe that "64-bit" doesn't magically make everything faster, but it just doesn't. Some kinds of computation benefit from 64-bits, and some do not. SketchUp modeling operations do not benefit.
john
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@jbacus said:
@khai said:
what I would love to know from the SU team is this.
Why Collada over OBJ in the free edition? or in general?Quite simply, COLLADA is a modern, open and extensible format which lives and breathes for asset exchange. I've got no problem with .OBJ per se, but it isn't as capable as COLLADA. It certainly is older, and this means that it is more likely to be supported by a wider range of apps. But I don't see how it is fundamentally better as an exchange format.
john
.but no one's using Collada!
everyone's using OBJ.put it this way. OBJ is better...because ppl are using it. Collada maybe technically better on paper.. but if no one's using it.. it's not better.
right now, to use a Collada model I have to take the DAE into Softimage Mod Tools, save out as a FBX then take the FBX into Wings3D where I can then take it to OBJ...which everything else reads without problems.
take a look. do your own research and you'll see the problem. many apps are writing DAE.. but only a few - SU is one - that reads it...
it's comical!
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@bob james said:
I find OBJ export, but I don't find OBJ Importin SU8 Pro. Am I missing something basic?
That's correct- SketchUp does not have an OBJ importer, and it never has. While it is tempting to think of import and export as being symmetrical processes, in fact they are not. An importer is considerably more complex/difficult to maintain than an exporter.
john
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sorry that was my slip up while getting excited. used to having apps (trueSpace mainly, where I learnt to model) having import/export as the usual way of doing things.
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@unknownuser said:
@ladybugz said:
Google is listening
Carolyn,
I want to apologize to you beforehand if my reply is going to sound a bit blunt, but reading these forums daily and most recently the response to Eight I feel something needs to be said. I realize I am not the best person to point this out given I started this website to support this product 5 years ago come September 9th, but as a supporter you need to be honest too.
I don't know how to say this in a 'nice' way but this morning when I saw this post by what appeared to be from a Google staff member, I could not believe it. People filled out Google's questionnaire, about what features are highest on their wish list some time ago. Almost none of the features that were on that list have made it into version 8. Now it may have been the case that when that list was concluded, that there was already a feature freeze for Eight, but come on, any modern day 3D application has 64 Bit support and most certainly supports more than 4 Gb of memory.
I don't understand Google. And I am speaking directly to them, certainly not the @Last core group that is still present to this day. In the days of @Last Software, if several people had the same feature request, the development team would deliver. Google says it listens, but can you honestly say this is the case?
It's hard for me to say this, given I have always backed every release since version 4. I was there when Pro users were slamming the Six release, defending it to the end. I was there when Seven came out and the same thing happened all over again. Even though I felt those two releases had good feature sets, I could not entirely disagree with the dismay of some Pro users.
Now Eight has come along and I just can't do the same anymore. Quite frankly speaking I find this post an insult for all of those people that voted in the aforementioned questionnaire. I can't speak for other people, but I can imagine if you have filled out that questionnaire last year you must feel like a complete idiot right now. You can not post something like that, then a year or so later release a product which has almost none of the features included. And when Google responds to the 64 Bit question with "What's the use of it?", you know just how well it listens.
I am not in the business of grilling the SketchUp people. I love you guys to death. After the two last releases I really believed you guys would have learned some key things about this community, about your customers. I am sorry to say that this is not the case and I honestly fear the worst. I can't speak for others, but I for one am not going to fill out another questionnaire or similar. Google already has all the answers it needs. Asking for the same thing twice is just silly.
+1 Coen, you've said it better than I could.
Google, you already have all the suggestions you need. Implement some of those and get back to us with v8.1, then we'll give you some more
-Brodie
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@khai said:
but no one's using Collada!
everyone's using OBJ.I think you have to define 'everyone.' What, precisely, is the workflow that you are trying to use? Where to you want your SketchUp model to end up, and for what purpose?
john
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