Do humans have a free will?
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But, damn the risk of foolishness, I do think humans have free will...and animals too!
One may be hard-wired and soft-wared to have no control over wanting to gut one's neighbor (like the fish he is :`) every time he speaks, but doesn't the choice (for most of us) of not acting on those "instinctual" and/or "programed" thoughts prove the concept free will...or we all just walking timebombs looking for the right, or wrong, trigger?
I watch my cats "choose" all the time. Watch them decide to ignore instinct...which is greatly rewarding, to pursue another course of action...one producing no apparent reward at all. Free will? I think so!
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@alan fraser said:
Seriously, I do believe we have free will. You can test it empirically by making some minor decisions..."Do I choose A or B?" You then need to run that choice threw a few filters to ensure that you didn't arrive at it by the coercion of being predetermined to make such a choice in the first place...do you accept the result, do you perversely switch to the other choice, or do you toss a coin. You could do this several times, making snap decisions which filter to apply...or whether to apply one at all. The final result will be the result of a free will decision. It may be over something inconsequential but all you are doing is proving the concept.
Wouldn't being both the test subject as the, errrrr, tester compromise the validity of the experiment to some extent? Besides that ... a peer group of one?
Wouldn't that make the experiment, what's it called, rationalist (Descartes) in nature, rather than empirical?
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Yes it would, which is why you can run around in circles forever. Unfortunately, as free will is an entirely internal process, the subject is the only one that can actually determine whether they are exercising it or not. An external tester can determine responses, but has no way of determining whether such responses are biologically/sociologically/environmentally determined or are genuinely the result of free will.
There are debates on free will all over the Net...even in physics forums. No one has yet come up with a definitive yes or no, it's all anecdotal. -
@unknownuser said:
- Re. “animals", at first, they have no spirit…!
What a load of hooey!
My animals show more soul and spirit than most "humans" and sure as "hell" don't go around quoting religious text before committing acts of mass genocide & other atrocities. -
Get my name right.
It's Yessua bar Youssef. Oy Vey!
Seriously, I do believe we have free will. You can test it empirically by making some minor decisions..."Do I choose A or B?" You then need to run that choice threw a few filters to ensure that you didn't arrive at it by the coercion of being predetermined to make such a choice in the first place...do you accept the result, do you perversely switch to the other choice, or do you toss a coin. You could do this several times, making snap decisions which filter to apply...or whether to apply one at all. The final result will be the result of a free will decision. It may be over something inconsequential but all you are doing is proving the concept.
Ultimately it's one of those circular arguments, like asking "Do I exist or do I only think I exist?" that Descartes wrestled with.Cornel, I'm afraid I simply don't buy the "Inspired by God" reasoning. I'm not going to indulge in more history, but those decisions made way back then had far more to do with maintaining the status quo, preventing religious schism and shoring up a collapsing Roman Empire than they did about anything else. It's classic case of history being written by the victors...or in this case by those who's views and ideas prevailed...not because they were inspired by God, but because the political establishment of the time threw its weight behind them.
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If animals don't have a spirit and man does, I'd be very interested in hearing about at precisely what point in human evolution he acquired one...and it better not involve any magic spells, fairy dust or conjuring tricks.
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Alan, I doubt Cornel believes in evolution.
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@solo said:
Another question I had as a kid was when an infant dies they are said to go straight to heaven, now if God knew that was going to happen and as the religious instructors say that the baby was innocent and free of sin, was this to get more angels or test the parents?
Sorry to refer back to a quote from the first page of this topic (and go a little off topic), but I remember debating this issue with my Christian Summer Camp group leader when I was 15: in one discussion he explained that a part of a Christian's duty was to spread "the good word" ensuring as many souls would enter heaven as possible (which seems after all to be the ultimate goal of Christianity). In the following day's discussion he explained the infant death situation which Pete questioned above. I just couldn't follow the logic: God granted us free will and so to ascend to heaven we must choose to become Christians, but as babies are recognised even by Christianity to lack the cognitive skills to make such a decision they get a "free pass" into heaven? So at what point does this "free pass" expire? 1 yr old, 5 yrs old, 18 yrs old? As Pete asked, wouldn't this mean that infant deaths are actually a boost to the "heavenly statistics"? Then my inquisitive teenage mind hit on a major contradiction between the two day's teachings: I asked our group leader, "You said yesterday that it is a major part of every Christian's duty to teach others the "one true path" so thay they may enter heaven when they die?" He agreed. Then I asked again about the "free pass" rule for infant deaths and he said yes, babies automatically ascend to heaven. So then I asked what if a person, who regarded themselves as a Christian decided that their only purpose in life was to "help" as many other souls ascend to heaven as possible and that the simplest and most effective way of doing this was to murder infants, then wouldn't the "evil" act of murder contradict the "good" act of getting more souls into heaven? My group leader replied that, of course murder is inherently an evil act, so regardless of any positive outcome the perpetrator could not be said to be a Christian and would therefore burn in eternal damnation. Then I asked the final logical question: If someone KNOWS that they will go to hell for eternity for the murder of infants, but weighing this fact up against the benefit of all these souls ascending to heaven they decided to carry out the massacre anyway, haven't they then made the ultimate sacrifice for others? I never did get a straight answer from the poor guy, he just kept saying, "but murder is evil". I knew that, but I didn't need a book to tell me.
"Without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."- Steven Weinberg
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thats a great anecdote, Jackson. I have to say I feel a bit sorry for your poor group leader (I was one of these nasty, questioning children too
)@jackson said:
@solo said:
"Without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."- Steven Weinberg
Oh, I like that line. of course he does not talk about religion converting people without hope, people with no goal in mind who do bad things, to find a new purpose in their lives and help others. but nevertheless, a amusingly sarcastic remark!
to come back to free will:
if we look at an animal that is very simple in it's actions - a crocodile for example. a scientist will have no problem to predict what the crocodile is going to do. if he stirs the water, it will come to him. if he moves violently, it will bite. if he doesn't move at all, it will go away.
so from our point of view we can't really talk of a free will, because we know what it is going to do.but perhaps the crocodile itself is absolutely convinced, that it decided to approach that noise in the water and bite the poor creature. it is not aware of the fact, that this action was absolutely predictable to other, more intelligent beings.
therefore, if a being, far more intelligent than us humans, is able to predict our actions with as much certainty as we can do with the crocodile, this observer may not grant humans a free will.
to us that is utterly unimportant, because we live under the believe, that our actions are results of our own decisions - free will. the same may be true for the crocodile - it feels absolutely free in it's decisions.
it is all a matter of your point of view.and that is why I think, we are free enough in our decisions.
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Alan,
God, using different writers, inspired them (even dictated them) His Word to have a precise and complete communication with us – The Scriptures).
It wasn’t a coincidence that the Pope, like Athanasius of Alexandria and others decided the same components (books) of the Bible – God inspired them, also!Mike,
It’s difficult to understand the Bible language, because many terms ar loaded with additional significance. You must read the entire Book, at least one time!
If not, you will be in a ‘dangerous’ position like David_H: hard to comprehend or solve “why is Philemon part of the Bible?”.*“Oy Vey!”,*David_H,
I read inclusive that ‘pretense Bible’: “the Book Of Mormon”…Cornel
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Whether we truly have free will or not is probably less important than if we perceive that we do.
It's a little like the nature of matter. That desk in front of you is actually made up of particles so insubstantial compared to the emptiness surrounding them that there is practically nothing there. Yet you have no choice but to interact with it as if it was a solid object. Similarly, there has to be a concept of free will, because without it we have no concept of good and bad choices, no virtue, no evil, no crime....just predetermined response.
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@alan fraser said:
Whether we truly have free will or not is probably less important than if we perceive that we do.
It's a little like the nature of matter. That desk in front of you is actually made up of particles so insubstantial compared to the emptiness surrounding them that there is practically nothing there. Yet you have no choice but to interact with it as if it was a solid object. Similarly, there has to be a concept of free will, because without it we have no concept of good and bad choices, no virtue, no evil, no crime....just predetermined response.
Without freewill actions will still have inderminant out come. At least thats what Chaos theory whould tell us.
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@chango70 said:
So NO we don't have 'free will' in a absolute sence, but we do have it in a limited sense.
nicely said, chango.
that means, we asume to have a free will as long as we are not able to look behind our own decisions. but we don't need to be afraid, because we will never be able to do that. our mind is just not able to go beyond it's own limits.so, as you said, the definition of a 'free will' is relative. so I think it is save to say:
In a human scale, we have a free will
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“…our own decisions…”?!
“But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.”
(Isaiah 64:8)
"[i]human scale" [/i]!!?
“O LORD, what is man that you regard him, or the son of man that you think of him?”
(Psalms 144:3)The enigma of ‘free willing’ is deeper than present discussions!
Voila a more realistic starting point:
“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” (Romans 8:20-21)Cornel
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Solo wrote:,
“I doubt Cornel believes in evolution.”I believe in devolution.
Jackson,
No one will “go to hell for eternity” for sins, because Jesus Christ paid for them!
Since you are confused about the “way of salvation”, you cannot comprehend the status of babies.Cornel
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Slightly OT again. Regarding the question of infant mortality, this makes interesting reading.
http://politicsplusstuff.blogspot.com/2005/12/roman-catholic-church-reconsiders.htmlThe RC church only recently "informally" changed its mind about the destination of unbaptised infants. Previously, they did indeed go to Purgatory. So now it's all right...it's official...they only go to Limbo. The problem is that organised religion is doing this all the time....with or without God's permission. Taking a fixed position on this issue, like anything else, makes as much sense as taking an eternal, unmoving position on fashion.
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Amazing how the bible can be twisted to support your convenience. I bet Cornel can even find a passage that have nothing to do with squat that will even support the Iraq war.
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@solo said:
Amazing how the bible can be twisted to support your convenience. I bet Cornel can even find a passage that have nothing to do with squat that will even support the Iraq war.
I am pretty sure that's happened already
. It's pretty scary. -
@unknownuser said:
CraigD,
re. your "Humans DO have free will!!"There are a few conditions…
See an example!:
”…and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free[.” (John 8:32)Cornel
You are obviously not married...
HAHAHA -
Solo & Chongo...,
If you already read the Book of Daniel, you don’t have to wait for me …!
(re. Iraq)Cornel
P.S.:
Versions of Proverbs 19:13, for CraigD:
“…a quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping.”
“…a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain.”
“…the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.”
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