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    Do humans have a free will?

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    • C Offline
      cornel
      last edited by

      “…our own decisions…”?!

      “But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.”
      (Isaiah 64:8)
      "[i]human scale" [/i]!!? 😕
      “O LORD, what is man that you regard him, or the son of man that you think of him?”
      (Psalms 144:3)

      The enigma of ‘free willing’ is deeper than present discussions!
      Voila a more realistic starting point:
      “For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” (Romans 8:20-21)

      Cornel

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      • C Offline
        cornel
        last edited by

        Solo wrote:,
        “I doubt Cornel believes in evolution.”

        I believe in devolution.

        Jackson,
        No one will “go to hell for eternity” for sins, because Jesus Christ paid for them!
        Since you are confused about the “way of salvation”, you cannot comprehend the status of babies.

        Cornel

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        • Alan FraserA Offline
          Alan Fraser
          last edited by

          Slightly OT again. Regarding the question of infant mortality, this makes interesting reading.
          http://politicsplusstuff.blogspot.com/2005/12/roman-catholic-church-reconsiders.html

          The RC church only recently "informally" changed its mind about the destination of unbaptised infants. Previously, they did indeed go to Purgatory. So now it's all right...it's official...they only go to Limbo. The problem is that organised religion is doing this all the time....with or without God's permission. Taking a fixed position on this issue, like anything else, makes as much sense as taking an eternal, unmoving position on fashion.

          3D Figures
          Were you required to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more?
          You could be entitled to compensation. Call the Pro Claimers now!

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          • soloS Offline
            solo
            last edited by

            Amazing how the bible can be twisted to support your convenience. I bet Cornel can even find a passage that have nothing to do with squat that will even support the Iraq war.

            http://www.solos-art.com

            If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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            • C Offline
              chango70
              last edited by

              @solo said:

              Amazing how the bible can be twisted to support your convenience. I bet Cornel can even find a passage that have nothing to do with squat that will even support the Iraq war.

              I am pretty sure that's happened already 😕 . It's pretty scary.

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              • CraigDC Offline
                CraigD
                last edited by

                @unknownuser said:

                CraigD,
                re. your "Humans DO have free will!!"

                There are a few conditions…

                See an example!:
                ”…and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free[.” (John 8:32)

                Cornel

                You are obviously not married... 😉 HAHAHA

                Google SketchUp

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                • C Offline
                  cornel
                  last edited by

                  Solo & Chongo...,
                  If you already read the Book of Daniel, you don’t have to wait for me …!
                  (re. Iraq)

                  Cornel
                  P.S.:
                  Versions of Proverbs 19:13, for CraigD:
                  “…a quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping.”
                  “…a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain.”
                  “…the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.”

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                  • E Offline
                    ehaflett
                    last edited by

                    Great thread! I'm a bit late to it so forgive me. chongo70 I'm really digging your comments, great approach.

                    I'd like to add that from my atheist perspective the idea of free will is a purely religious construct, meaning that it can only be discussed within the framework of some religion. Without that it's quite absurd because it requires me to imagine someone in my head other than me. My actions are determined by the way my thoughts developed as I aged and how they were formed by my parents, peers, and environment. There is no entity (God) upon which to pin that developmental influence. That being said, is it fair to say that atheists have free will and religious people do not on the basis that their actions are either preprogrammed by or at least influenced by the word (will) of their God?

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                    • C Offline
                      chango70
                      last edited by

                      @unknownuser said:

                      Solo & Chongo...,
                      If you already read the Book of Daniel, you don’t have to wait for me …!
                      (re. Iraq)

                      Cornel
                      P.S.:
                      Versions of Proverbs 19:13, for CraigD:
                      “…a quarrelsome wife is as annoying as constant dripping.”
                      “…a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain.”
                      “…the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping.”

                      Cornel

                      Can you quote the entire Old & New Testament back to back? Am I supposed to be impressed by that?

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                      • soloS Offline
                        solo
                        last edited by

                        Eric you hit the nail on the head, Like you, I too am athiest and liberated from a scripted existence that most 'practicing' religious folk are restricted to.
                        I make choices based on my values and morals and I accept the consequences of those decisions, this gives me the conclusion that I have free will. Unlike Cornel for instance, who really does not have free will as he is trapped to the regiment of his convictions, all decisions need to be qualified by his book of quotes and parables, and second guessing based on an eternity of harps and hymns or sulfur and brimstone.

                        http://www.solos-art.com

                        If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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                        • C Offline
                          cornel
                          last edited by

                          Eric & Pete,
                          (Am I ‘crazy’…?!)

                          If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
                          but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!

                          Paradoxically…: 🤣
                          Cornel

                          P.S.:
                          "The natural person () does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned*." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
                          (* - like an atheist...)

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                          • E Offline
                            ehaflett
                            last edited by

                            @unknownuser said:

                            P.S.:
                            "The natural person () does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned*." (1 Corinthians 2:14)
                            (* - like an atheist...)

                            Thanks Cornel, I coundn't have said it better myself. Funny thing about this quote is that religious people read it and feel sorry for atheists and atheists don't read it. Does 'Natural' maan 'atheist'? Does this mean spiritual/religious people are un-natural?

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                            • Mike LuceyM Offline
                              Mike Lucey
                              last edited by

                              Excellently put Tomasz, You have said a lot in a few shorts sentences.

                              Mike

                              Support us so we can support you! Upgrade to Premium Membership!

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                              • T Offline
                                tomasz
                                last edited by

                                Hi, thanks Plot for bringing in a new interesting thread. I intend to go back to the old one as well.

                                I am sure we have free will. Without it we couldn't take responsibility for our actions.
                                If we won't exercise this gift, we will be like an anonymous, colourless mass.

                                As already pointed out, very often we are being pushed to do something, very often our emotions win and we do what in fairness we don't want to.

                                There are people who doesn't care and do what they were told to without a trace of reflection.
                                On the other hand, there are people with very well formed minds (souls), being able to exercise their gift.

                                Tomasz

                                Author of [Thea Render for SketchUp](http://www.thearender.com/sketchup)

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                                • soloS Offline
                                  solo
                                  last edited by

                                  Cornel wrote:

                                  @unknownuser said:

                                  If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
                                  but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!

                                  Um, Cornel focus for a second, you the one that insists on mentioning souls and spirits, let me try again .... I am athiest and I have spirits in a pub and soles on my shoes. I do not believe in ghosts holy or not, heaven nor hell. I do believe jesus existed, but not as the son of God born to a virgin but rather a very socially liberal dude with a magnetic personallity and a posse.

                                  http://www.solos-art.com

                                  If you see a toilet in your dreams do not use it.

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                                  • C Offline
                                    cornel
                                    last edited by

                                    Eric,
                                    per your request,

                                    Voila versions of expression “the natural man”,
                                    from different English translations of The Bible:

                                    “nonspiritual man”,
                                    “people who aren’t spiritual”,
                                    “the sensual man”,
                                    “a beastly man”.

                                    Using 'Bible online' you can see those contexts...!
                                    (1 Corinthians 2:14)

                                    Cornel

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                                    • S Offline
                                      sorgesu
                                      last edited by

                                      Eric, I disagree that the concept of freewill requires a religious underpinning.

                                      There is a chemical, biological aspect to the question as well. In some ways this is an issue related to another thread about people being rewarded for their abilities.

                                      Over the years I have come to believe, much to my dismay, that we are the result of how we are wired and our cheimistry. You are bright because you are born bright. You work hard because you have been hard wired to be that way. You are gay because you are wired that way. You are an axe murderer because you are wired that way. You are a hot momma because your hormones are raging and many years later, you are not because the hormone supply is cut off. You try to repair your wiring with Ritalin, or Lithium, or what have you, because free will won't fix the problem. Chemicals do.

                                      You may have some free will in some smaller areas, like do I eat a hot dog or a cheese sandwhich, but I would bet even your preference at that moment is determined by a host of chemical reactions taking place in your body at that moment.
                                      I believe that in the book Freakonomics, the fellow used stats to show that individuals adopted at birth were more likely to have the intellect, intersests, income level, drug and sexual behaviour of their biological parents than that of their adoptive parents. So much for nurture. ( so if you gave birth to a messed up kid, you don't have to brow beat yourself anymore)

                                      I wish I believed otherwise. This is not desireable for me, but my observations have led to this inescapable conclusion.

                                      Susan Sorger
                                      Former Seller Hand Rendered Entourage
                                      Former Canadian Authorized Training Centre, SketchUp

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                                      • E Offline
                                        ehaflett
                                        last edited by

                                        Susan, great points. I disagree with you that we disagree, I think we agree and here's why. I think the question the way it has been discussed here is whether there is a force other than physical or historical (personal history, i.e. upbringing) that influences our everyday comings and goings. I fully agree with you that chemistry plays a big role in predisposing us for most behaviors, being wired a certain way. The idea, however, that our path thru life is somehow predetermined at birth by a higher power or somehow influenced by 'him', is what I just don't see. Perhaps I was remiss in mentioning chemistry in my original post but I lump that in with the biological factors of learning.

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                                        • E Offline
                                          ehaflett
                                          last edited by

                                          @unknownuser said:

                                          Eric & Pete,
                                          (Am I ‘crazy’…?!)

                                          If you are atheists, you cannot explain entire “spirit” and part of the “soul”
                                          but you are ‘proud’ about your freedom...?!!

                                          Paradoxically…: 🤣
                                          Cornel

                                          Sorry, I don't see a paradox. What freedom am I proud of? What is the opposite of free will?

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                                          • C Offline
                                            cornel
                                            last edited by

                                            You are right, Susan,
                                            “we are the result of how we are wired”, spiritual or nonspiritual:

                                            “Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:19-23)

                                            Eric,
                                            You can’t see that paradox because of an interposed 'ilusive free will'!

                                            Cornel
                                            P.S. (re.‘chemistry’): Alchemists were 'avaporated' long time ago… Sorry for this inconvenient!

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