Religion anyone?
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RickW,
Regarding my example of the faith healing:
I was not trying to redicule you at all, I wanted to show that a situation like I explained would be a no-brainer for a 'believer' they would emediately say it's God's healing power and the faith of the recipient. However a fact based non believer would make other conclusions, like it being a scam (like so many), mind over matter as explained by Plot-paris, hypnosis, etc, and would need some serious convincing before accepting it being a supernatural result.
Nomeradona touched on something, what does Rick W stand for?, Rick warren?
(joke) -
@solo said:
RickW,
Regarding my example of the faith healing:
I was not trying to redicule you at all, I wanted to show that a situation like I explained would be a no-brainer for a 'believer' they would emediately say it's God's healing power and the faith of the recipient. However a fact based non believer would make other conclusions, like it being a scam (like so many), mind over matter as explained by Plot-paris, hypnosis, etc, and would need some serious convincing before accepting it being a supernatural result.
Nomeradona touched on something, what does Rick W stand for?, Rick warren?
(joke)I didn't really think you were - but just exploring the possibilities (however remote) for the sake of illustration. As it turns out, I suspected (but didn't know for sure) that the actual case was what you just explained; thus, I didn't (fully) understand your point - which was one of the possibilities.
Though I share a first name and last initial with the well-known pastor, we are definitely two different people -
he writes "inspirational" books
, I write ruby plugins for SketchUp 
Sometimes, I think the "W" stands for "Windowizer". I wonder how that would look on a driver's license..."Rick Windowizer". Hmmm...
Nah.
Cheers,
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could we talk now about the desire of eternity ?
in this thread ? .just for a little bit.
.when where kids we had it. no doubt about it.
how could it dwell with that collective
@plot-paris said:if there is an entity like God, I would describe it as a collective intelligence.
any answers appreciated
but just for a little bit
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J.V.S.,
Re that: "...how could it dwell with that collective"?!!The Church (not buildings...) is composed of all those who are born again, and those which are united in the one body of Jesus Christ through the baptizing of the Holy Spirit, thus being limbs to one another (1 Corintians 12:13; Ephesians 1:22-23).
We are responsible for keeping the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace, rising above denominational prejudices and cult bigotry (Ephesians 4:3-6).Cornel
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Being Born Again!
I believe in the necessity and possibility of being born again (John 3:7-16), which is the implantation of a divine nature in man (Jacob 1:18; Titus 3:5) as a response to faith in the death and resurrection of our Lord, Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Romans 10:9-10). Eternal lifeis a gift from God, and needs to be accepted in a personal way (Romans 6:23; John 20:28).
Cornel
P.S.: Modelhead, regarding your "...is not equal to": it's based on a personal decision... (mine/your resolution!!!)
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You are welcome, J.V.S.!
A 'bonus' for everyone:
SALVATION COMES THROUGH GRACE(offered freely and without merit), and only through grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 2:11-12; 3:4-5). The works of the Law and the merits of man have no role in the obtainment of Salvation (Galatians 2:16). Through personal faith in the complete work of our Lord Jesus Christ, people can enter in the possession of salvation: they are born again (John 1:12-13), their sins are forgiven (Acts 10:43), they become children of God and citizens of heaven (Galatians 3:26; 1 John 3:1; Ephesians 2:19). Through divine providence they are guided and kept saved (Romans 8:14; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1).
It is the privilege of everyone that is born again to be sure of their salvation right from the moment they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. This assurance is not based on the merits of living, but on the testimony of God through His Word (Romans 8:38-39; 1 John 5:11-13).Cornel
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you always enlightens me
thanks modelhead:|
%(#804000)[] -
that is pretty interesting
Cornel,
thank you.
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It was just a nice wishing Modelhead.
nothing really important.
Though to me it helps. Cheers. -
desire for eternity... interesting question, Juan.
eternity is quite a long time and somehow difficult (impossible) to grasp for my limited mind.
to use my theory again - dying means leaving an imprint on the collective spirit of the earth, becoming a part of it. therefore, as long as there is life on earth, you will "live" on; or rather, the influence you had on this earth will have contributed it's part to the spirits development.
as for reincarnation, rebirth?
I never found an explanation that I really could understand and that satisfied me. would love to hear one though
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@rickw said:
It occured to me that the way I am saying things may be confusing to some. So here's a story that I hope illustrates things:
A man went outside after a rainstorm and saw that the streets were wet. A few days later, as he was walking, he saw a wet street and decided, "it must have rained here," and he walked on home. Because he was out walking, he missed the news report that a water main had broken near where he was walking, causing streets to be wet.
He saw the evidence (the street was wet), and the evidence was accommodated by his theory (it had rained). However, the evidence was also accommodated by alternate causes (badly adjusted irrigation system, leaky water truck, a broken water main, melting ice or snow, someone washing their car, etc.), one of which happened to be the actual situation.
The point is, the available evidence is accommodated by more than one theory. That being the case, the evidence (as it is) cannot be said to prove one or the other.
I agree sure but my point was the alternative you posited are based on previous experience of the person which can be independently shared by any number of individuals who experienced rain before encountering this event. It doesn't in anyway make God more likely.
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Modelhead, I’m sorry I’m late…!
You asked me a few times “why” I have that ‘position’, that faith?!
- WHY?! - Because I’m not a fanatic guy. I verified those ‘things’ (that I presented before) and they are true and vital, not just very 'interesting'!
Please, keep in mind this verse: “Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)
Cornel
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@unknownuser said:
...you should judge a man by his fruits.
(sorry, can't help having dirty thoughts sometimes...) -
Guys,
I wrote just a few ideas for those of you who desire A TRUE LIFE, not a "religious" one! Every person is direct (i)responsible for himself, for his faith! If that faith is based on his own idols (above, there are many deductive examples…), I’m very sorry for that ‘living human being’!
Think regarding “salvation”: “How shall we escape, if WE NEGLECT SO GREAT SALVATION…”?! (Hebrews 2:3)
Cornel
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@chango70 said:
I agree sure but my point was the alternative you posited are based on previous experience of the person which can be independently shared by any number of individuals who experienced rain before encountering this event.
How's that again?
@chango70 said:
It doesn't in anyway make God more likely.
Actually, I think God is inevitable (as in Alan's excellent post). All that really remains is discovering the mechanisms He used.
But it points out that you've been trying to argue the evidence does not prove the existence of God, while I've been arguing that the evidence does not prove a single conclusion. It's akin to a debate between two fellows:
@unknownuser said:
@unknownuser said:
I'm telling you, that wall is red!
@unknownuser said:
That doesn't prove that the window doesn't needs curtains! They absolutely need curtains!
@unknownuser said:
See, your last response fails to show that the wall could be any color but red!
@unknownuser said:
That dogmatic stance is exactly why you fail to see the need for curtains for the windows!
Ad nauseum...
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I think this is an interesting reading about Religion :
True Unity
There are two methods of unification; the first way of unification is practiced by governments and religions: subduing the masses, restricting freedoms and ultimately reworking the human psyche to serve the whole—unity. In order to accomplish this goal each particular must be weakened to the state were the combining of particulars becomes possible. The law, governmental or religious, is administered with this goal in mind.Jails are a prime example of a system meant to break the spirit, similar to how the regiment of military discipline hammers the soul into rigid service. Those who survive the punishment of the law remain hard-crusted and often aloof to protect their hard won freedom from the system. Religion is another way of breaking the spirit; religious laws implore guilt not as a verdict, but as a way of life from which there is no relief. In Torah, law and justice are symbiotic, each unable to exist alone—there is no justice without law and law without justice is: just us.
The true unity is found hereon earth, not through the melding of particulars into nations with governments or religions with their ideologies and dogma, but through compassion. Compassion goes beyond law and into the way of the divine. Just as the torso is the fulcrum of the limbs, so too is compassion the place of unity; true unity which is synonymous with love and beauty is personified in woman and is the coming reward in the last 1000 years cycle called the Thousand Years of Woman.
Destined to encompass the earth in just a short few centuries beginning in the year 6000 in the Hebrew calendar, this seventh and final thousand years is also known as the Shabbot—1000 years denoting rest like the seventh day of the week. Now and for the next couple of centuries is the time of preparation for when the next stage of human evolution: human bodies will grow from the bones planted in the earth, bodies that will live for a thousand years because they are a pure housing of the entirety of the soul.
from Dovid Krafchow
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@alan fraser said:
Any true scientist knows that there is more than one explanation and that all theories are just that...supposition based on observable fact...even if they are often initiated by unsupported moments of inspiration.
Aargh! Nonsense. A theory is NOT that. For goodness' sake try to at least read some serious philosophy of science before you make daft claims like that.
Snip religious nonsense...
@unknownuser said:
Although I fully support the advances in knowledge of the scientific Greats,
'the scientific Greats' is another bit of nonsense. The theories are not good because they are proposed by 'scientific Greats'. Science is NOT NOT NOT a religion where Truth is handed down by Great Powers.
@unknownuser said:
The Wave/Particle duality of light is well known, but I'd bet good money that it is, in fact, neither a wave or a particle.
Light, as all electromagenetic phenomena, is transmitted as photons. Photons are discrete chunks of energy. Read a bit about Quantum ElectroDynamics - I recommend some of Richard Feynmans popular books for a rough introductions.
@unknownuser said:
Gravity is even more mysterious. It is everywhere; its range is apparently limitless; its effects are instantaneous, or at least it travels far faster than light. Some believe it to be particle-based, others more like a wave or universal matrix. Basically we don't have a clue other than it appears to be intimately related to both space and time.
What? Where on earth do you get that idea from? Certainly not from any serious scientific source. There is no evidentiary or theoretical basis for expecting gravity to propagate faster than light.
@unknownuser said:
Sure, we can model it mathematically in precise detail
...we can send spacecraft to slingshot their way from planet to planet and end at a destination with near pinpoint accuracy...but we don't know what it actually IS.Did you know that Newtonian mechanics is adequate for handling probes to Pluto etc?
@unknownuser said:
The way it is traditionally modelled is that every atom of matter in the universe is exerting a gravitational pull (by whatever means) on every other atom. This is an inferencing system that puts SU to shame. Furthermore...whether you attribute this to attractor particles or some kind of wave...energy is involved. The performance hit in SU would be nothing compared to this. To keep this up forever and over infinite distances would require more energy than exists in the entire universe.
What gibberish. If it were the case that 'would require more energy than exists in the entire universe' then it couldn't be that way - not to mention that you are abusing the terms 'forever' and 'infinite distances' horribly.
Snip more nonsense...
@unknownuser said:
Entanglement appears to be an observable fact...and Entanglement seems to suggest that everything is still touching, not racing away from everything else at vast speeds.
Oh, ok, let's not let reality get in the way. I'll go rub my Special Crystals with Holy Water soaked Blessed Tissues or whatever.
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@tim said:
argh! Nonsense. A theory is NOT that. For goodness' sake try to at least read some serious philosophy of science before you make daft claims like that.
Id be interested to hear what you think the definition of a scientific theory is.
@unknownuser said:
'the scientific Greats' is another bit of nonsense. The theories are not good because they are proposed by 'scientific Greats'. Science is NOT NOT NOT a religion where Truth is handed down by Great Powers.
But their are people who have had better ideas, and have subsequently thought of better theories than others. I think this is the sort of person alan was talking about, rather than some all seeing scientists who dishes out theories by popular demand.
@unknownuser said:
What? Where on earth do you get that idea from? Certainly not from any serious scientific source. There is no evidentiary or theoretical basis for expecting gravity to propagate faster than light.
Do you know what gravity is, at the most fundamental level?
@unknownuser said:
What gibberish. If it were the case that 'would require more energy than exists in the entire universe' then it couldn't be that way - not to mention that you are abusing the terms 'forever' and 'infinite distances' horribly.
Not a fan of the fundamental forces then?
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I want to write something to response somehow to all your thoughts Paris, Modelhead and others. I wanted to find a comfortable time to add something, but it seems I have to join here, otherwise it could be completely out of a context.
My own vision of the World is pretty crystallized, although I do my best to keep my ears open. Paris it talking about common intelligence, something we all share, have access to. Connel is writing about salvation and Juan want to hear something about eternity. I have so much to say. Probably I will write a book, when will be older.
My world is build around love. I have written about my personal experience of a deepest feeling ever in 'I believe.... part two' thread.
What if Love is this energy that binds all together? Love that is humble and fragile, yet powerful. What if we all are able to 'tune ourselves' to receive it? What if salvation means letting this love to dwell within us? What if I am crying out to meet the Love again? It is my deepest desire. I could call it a 'longing for an eternal meeting'. Plot you will live not as a part of collective spirit, but as a individual submerged in Love. It will do nothing to stop you doing bad things. In its presence, you will not be able to. It would be too rude, too cruel. There will be no condemnation by Love. All whose lives were far from love will simply be condemned by their acts as they will realize instantly how blind they were, how stupid, how selfish, how empty. There will be nothing to say, no defence at all. We all we will see us as we really are. That is why it is important to live in a truth.. there will be less surprise for us,in what we will see.
Being good doesn't mean being perfect. So many are trying to be and get just a frustration. Willingness to be good takes source in meeting someone good, you want to follow.
Jesus said that his 'food' was hearing and doing everything what Father said. For him Father and Love it is same person, same thing. That is how I feel it. My spirit following the Love, that is alive within me, cryies out: 'Father!!!' and this inner shout takes birth in a deepest point in my soul. It has same authenticity, as my memories of the meeting with the Father. I want to do more, to help others discover we are not orphans. We ALL have a Father.
To easier understand how love works I am using a comparison with an opposite - hate. Hate, if will take you in its possession, will drag you, force you to do something, will internally destroy you and in the end will spill you out completely wrecked. Love works opposite. Its invitation can be easily missed, it will guide you, but you will find your will is not compromised at all. You will notice that it feeds you and helps to develop your talents and in the end will leave you wiser and surprisingly more independent.
Reaching to the root of my experience is my ultimate goal in my life. I want to get there and take as much as I can to share with others. Being a husband and a father helps me a lot. It was looking much easier to hide from the World and play a monk, but it was not what I really wanted.
Take care
Tomasz
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Solo - chop liver?
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