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I absolutely hate (detest, etc. etc.) the subscription model as well, for the reasons already mentioned
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In general (I never used PlusSpec) I also very much dislike subscription based software. It just feels like an easy way to generate money without having to put much extra effort into it. I would rather prefer I'm encouraged to buy a renewal by putting new features / improvements into the software (like Sketchup to me did with their last releases).
I do very much acknowledge the efforts of the programmers though. It takes a lot time to create and bugfix software. Maybe even much more time than is covered by the one-time sale of the software?! Also, the subscription most likely will pay for developing new features and bugfixes. Or are they using it to play golf all day? Most likely not.
Maybe some of the forum members who create payed (and subscription based) plugins can shed some light into this that would make us less hostile to subscriptions. -
Interesting read on Corona's "Fair SaaS" subscription model.
https://corona-renderer.com/blog/prices-release-date/
https://corona-renderer.com/blog/discussion-about-prices-licence-politics-ii/I think subscription can be a good idea, if it's fair with the user. (Monthly based, cancel anytime, etc) But to me, PlusSpec is just way too exepensive.
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@jiminy-billy-bob said:
... PlusSpec is just way too exepensive.
Fundamentally, I think this is the major issue.
We have heard it's good, but we haven't actually seen proof that it's good.
For me to pay so much money AND subscription based it would have to:
- Be 100% IFC+DWG+DWF compatible in and out.
- Have an amazing detailing system that would work along the parametric modeling.
- Have perfect workflow with layout wich would be better than sketchup native workflow;
- Really really be flexible enough for any kind of model
- Allow for easy to use completely customized windows and door system closet and kitchen system that allows for doors to mix with closets and windows with doors, etc.
- Allow for every kind of tool (even this door, window, closet, kitchen system) to work flawlessly even in angles different from 90 degrees...
I mean all parametric and all custom...
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I was looking at PlusSpec but @ $900+ a year I'm out. I don't get how a add on can justifying costing twice what the base program costs. I also think SU and Layout Combination only fall slightly short of getting the job done. Of course not with out the generous works of some of the plugin writers on this site. And let's not forget SU and Trimble may step up and close those gaps! Until then I'll do a few things the old fashion way.
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Thanks to Drew from PlusSpec for the reply and for everyone else's opinions. I've given it some thought and set out some points for consideration below.
The way the software is offered does appear to be reducing its uptake and I can see why. Like everyone else I much prefer to buy software outright and then it is my choice whether to upgrade in the future if the new features are worth it. With a subscription I have to pay every year whether I want to or not, otherwise I can't use the software any more or potentially not even view the models created in it.
I am not against a subscription in principle however if it is good value. I am currently considering subscribing to Microsoft Office 365 Business. Amazingly for Microsoft it is better value to subscribe. One copy of Office Professional as an outright purchase is just under £400 for 1 PC only. Subscribing to Office 365 is less than £100 per year and it can be loaded onto 5 PCs/devices. For me this is is good value.
PlusSpec however charges what should be a one off (and quite high) purchase price of £500 when actually it is an annual cost. Furthermore I would only be allowed to load it onto 1 PC. If it was good enough I wouldn't begrudge £500 as a one off and then a lower upgrade price as and when I thought it was worth it. Alternatively I would possibly consider an annual subscription of £500 (although £2-300 would be more appealing) if I could load it onto 5 devices. Currently however it is a lose-lose situation with a high subscription cost (more than Sketchup itself) and with only the facility to load it onto 1 PC. As a very minimum I would want to be able to load it onto a PC and a laptop.
Further to the above there is no demo available to even test it out to see if it is worth buying. I know there is a 30 day money back guarantee, however I, and I'm sure many others, prefer to trial software first rather than outlay cash only to very quickly find it is unsuitable and then have the hassle of getting a refund. In a year I might trial a number of different software packages and I would be loathe to outlay £500+ every time I did so. There are also accountancy implications for business users in doing so. Furthermore due to time constraints I may take longer to trial the software than 30 days. Most other software vendors allow demo downloads so I don't understand why PlusSpec does not.
Anyway thanks again to Drew for replying and I would appreciate it if you could rethink your business model slightly in the light of the many comments posted here. I'm sure you would get more takers if you did. If it is as good as you say and would be worth the subscription, then at least allow potential users to demo it first to find out.
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Kenny. I'm with you on most points. I also think a decent no commitment trial period is needed. Afterall a great deal of time is lost, and people who would buy the SW are those who are busy and could be making money in their current SW instead of trialing another.
I don't agree about multiple seats. If I have only one computer--a lone practitioner--the higher price just cuts me out, because I can't leverage the workflow of more seats into profit.
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@pbacot said:
Kenny. I'm with you on most points. I also think a decent no commitment trial period is needed. Afterall a great deal of time is lost, and people who would buy the SW are those who are busy and could be making money in their current SW instead of trialing another.
I don't agree about multiple seats. If I have only one computer--a lone practitioner--the higher price just cuts me out, because I can't leverage the workflow of more seats into profit.
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All I can tell you is PlusSpec is what you need for a professional modern day outfit. I know that this is now changing the world we live, design and build in. It is up to you to try and you can do that at no cost, when you opt out within 30 days. This is a revolution that far surpasses your expectations & I am sorry you feel the way you do.
I understand the reasoning of your comments yet I beg to differ.Until you use our software I think it will be hard for you to understand what we have done and it will be hard for you to know where we are going with this, time will tell. There was a trial version available for free yet we found we were dealing with people trying to crack it. This I can not allow, it is stealing! So for you honest guys, I apologise.
Drawing a model that looks like a house and drawing a model that is a house are two different animals. If you are drawing models that look like a house you have only charged for a small percentage of the work that has been handed to you. In "Sketchup" a wall is a rectangular prism with a material associated, In "PlusSpec" a wall is made up of the necessary components to build it, your engineer can certify it and contractors can build it. Many charge Extra for the documentation that is produced in Plusspec this by itself will pay for your license in one jobs. Builders using PlusSpec are now charging for quotes that they used to do for free...... and the list goes on.
The cost to change a model into true virtual design is something you are missing out on if you do not have our software. If you are doing it manually you are losing time and time is money.
Our users are now drawing a full build-able model in Sketchup that would normally take them 100+ hours in less than 1 hour with a BOQ (Bill of Quantities). Need I say more?As far as price rises go you are not comparing apples with apples. IE Pre release versus actual.
We will continue to produce the best software for our industry and we will do it from real world experience. I hope to see you there, if not I wish you all the best my friends.
Kind regards Andrew -
Then you need to show it differently, IMHO. I could see reason on spending that amount of money yearly on something that truly delivers and is worthy. However I've not been able to have a notion of what plusspec really is...
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Check out Form Z software.
About the same price but NOT a subscription model.
In addition Form Z has been around a very long time and understands the required workflow.Way more features.
And their current offering appears to be head and shoulders above everything else.
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@aadbuild said:
Until you use our software I think it will be hard for you to understand what we have done and it will be hard for you to know where we are going with this, time will tell. There was a trial version available for free yet we found we were dealing with people trying to crack it. This I can not allow, it is stealing! So for you honest guys, I apologise.
You either have to accept that it will be cracked someday and offer a trial version for people to understand the whole possibilities, or get way better at communicating and justify why PlusSpec is worth $1000/year.
I think right now you are losing customers simply because they can't understand the range of your software. -
Hello Andrew,
I am not sure it is necessary to patronize SU's user with your comments on "what we need". We can figure out what is going on in the 3D CAD industry and decide for ourselves where we want to spend our money, how much, and under what purchasing conditions.I also believe you are over-reaching with your comment that what you have will "far surpass our expectations". I can assure you the programmers at Vectorworks, Archicad, Revit, and the like are yawning at that observation. Some have been at what you have just begun to code for the past 30 years.
Again, I may not like to work with those programs (I have them all, and yes, I own them), but they are first-class.I am sorry the code nasties are doing their usual devious number on you and your colleagues. This is highly unfortunate, yet a fact of life for any programmer. There must be a way for you to allow potential users a free trial period of enough time for anyone to determine if they want to buy the program. We will not pay for it only to "return it" if it is not right for us.
No need to explain 'hybrid' modelling to us. We know what is missing in SK and would love to see it implemented well, like with Plusspec, for example.
You push too hard on the business benefits we would derive. Let us decide that for ourselves.
Here is a question you have not addressed: what happens if you decide---or Heaven forbid, are forced out of business,either after 6 months, or 5 years. What happens to the subscription user. They are left with nothing they can use for their payments. It just does not work....
Here is what I suggest:
- A one time purchase price to be no more than the cost of SK---less than $500US.
- Upgrade pricing annually that is reflective of the improvements and changes you have made. Again, because we are SK, no more than the actual cost of SK.
- A reasonable free trial period.
Here is the thing: my sense is that we all want you and your firm of programmers to succeed. If good (and let us decide), Plusspec---as a one time purchase, would be a superb addition to the SK arsenal of tools. Absolutely superb.
Please listen. It is never too late to correct a flawed business model. Well, almost never....
You have my sincere best wishes.
David
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Andrew and others thanks for taking the time to reply.
I would agree with David that there must be a way to trial the software. Yes unscrupulous people do try and crack software but that applies to all software and I can hardly think of another vendor that doesn't just accept that if they want to get new business then this is a fact of life. There must be ways to make it more difficult to crack. In any case those that want cracked software would be unlikely to purchase it legally anyway. If the software is as good as it is made out to be then we need to be given the opportunity to find this out for ourselves. It is also an individual need. For example how good is PlusSpec in a UK environment. Is there UK specific content? How easy is it to create 2D plans and drawings? These types of questions could be answered by a demo.
If you don't rethink this policy I'm not absolutely saying no to the money back trial but I am very reluctant to do so. It's only because there is no alternative however that I'm even considering it not because I want to.
The other issue putting me off is the subscription but this seems to be becoming more prevalent now, so again I won't absolutely say no. I do find it strange however Andrew that 9 months ago you stated that you 'hate' subscriptions, yet here we are with a subscription model. It's your decision though but as I stated previously the subscription offer is not that appealing either with no added value for subscribing apart from the value of the software itself. There is no installation allowed on more than 1 PC for example. I often however take my laptop out of the office and I would be very reluctant to buy a second license for this. I know you can transfer a license but the process does not appear to be instant and involves emailing the company which is clunky and involves waiting on a response.
There are now more and more BIM vendors entering the market and not just expensive offerings such as Archicad and Revit. I would prefer to stick with a SketchUp environment however as I've used it since Version 1 and would much prefer to use something familiar like PlusSpec which involves the core software that I use. I'm not saying that I definitely wouldn't give it a try but at the moment the vendor policy is not making it easy to decide to do so apart from the assertion that it's great!
Andrew if you could give some thought to the points made by myself and others then I would appreciate it, as would many others and possibly even your business I suspect!
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The fact is this:
I don't have an absolute need for it;
For me it's a lot of money;
It will probably be good for me to have it;
It will probably justify the money;
It will probably make me loose a lot of precious time learning it and I have other stuff to do so I can't be sure that after a month I will have decided;
If I will have it then my office will have it too;
For me that is a huge investment that I can hardly afford;
So I would have to be ABSOLUTELY sure that it was not a wimp of wanting but an absolute need I haven't found yet;
I'd have to be sure but, as you can see, I am not... -
I agree with a lot of the comments here. I have only my story to add:
I understand the desire to protect your software, but I believe the pricing model is only encouraging the use of cracked software. I must confess that while I was a student and new graduate (during a recession), I used cracked software (not SU, though with its free version). I couldn't afford to buy the software at the time. Ironically, in the early days, it was cracked software that generated the income to allow me to buy the legitimate counterparts. I bought the cheap software first, then the more expensive; with its reasonable price, Sketchup Pro (v7, I think) was the first architectural package I purchased.
Yes, it was illegal, but I think I made things right in the end. I don't think that story is uncommon. I've met plenty of freelancers straight out of university who were using illegal software. If I employ them, I have been known to make them add extra on their invoice so they can purchase legal versions!
What I am trying to convey, is that with PlusSpec's pricing model, you put more people in the bracket of "won't buy, but will use the cracked version". I am not saying it's right - just that it is a fact of life. I might go further to say that this demographic of people are exactly the kind of people you want on your side for the long term - these are the young and the startups who are open to doing things differently, but with a small wallet. They would be the ones who'd spread the word widest.
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Hey guys thanks for taking the time to comment.
Universities currently get PlusSpec for $66, Students get PlusSpec for $66 via university.
There is plenty of stuff on YouTube that shows live working in PlusSpec.
https://www.youtube.com/user/rubysketchI have to be straight guys, at this point in time I will not be reducing or changing the licensing system. If you choose not to buy it that is your call and I totally understand your situation, in return I want you to understand mine. If you really really want PlusSpec and you want to be a part of the team, PM me with your email address. I will always do my best to help out the little guy...
If you would like to win PlusSpec there is a competition on our site for the best use of Layout.
https://www.plusspec.com/pluspec-layout-competition.html This is a great way to get yourself exposure and a great way to get PlusSpec for Free. ... and yes you can submit existing work.......Or I can throw down the gauntlet and give a one time opportunity.
If you are or you know a CAD genius I do not care what software they use: Revit Archicad , Bentley or the best Sketchuper in the world.
If the intern in my office (Grant 19 years of age(
Grant does not know this yet)) can not draw up and estimate a job 5 times quicker than the fastest person in the world or the fastest person you can get. I will give everyone that has posted above this line 5 years for free! Ouch that could hurt 
.I will get Drew to start a new post on Sketchucation with all of the details and lets have a good old fashion race... like they did in the old days just a bit more geeky
.Now I have to get back to work. Talk soon.
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Andrew, thanks for contributing to this thread. Whether we agree with your business model or not it's good to see that you are happy to discuss things with potential users. I also think its great that many people want to use your software which shows a demand for the software although the conditions of purchase may not be suitable for all.
Anyway how you run your business is up to you, but it might be worth considering whether a different sales model which offers more lower priced purchase choices may get a lot more users (including myself!) and ultimately more profits for your company, although I understand that is probably for the future.
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Andrew, plusspec looks like the type of program I could drop money on in a heartbeat but without a demo or at least having some questions answered that I have posted a couple of times before I cant take the risk. I want Plusspec to succeed, I cant stand the current range of bloatware out there like Revit and ArchiCAD but paying for a trial just seems wrong. Pirates will always find a way, the only people you hurt are the honest customers who want to see if your software can do what they want. You wont lose customers by having a demo version, you will surely gain!
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The facts for me are:
Features (are related to what I do and how I do it, not in Plusspec itself):
[] I suspect I want it;
[] I don't need it as sketchup fulfils most of my needs;
[] There are features in it that could, if full featured, be useful;
[] I can't be sure the features I'd like to have are in there;
[*] The videos don't show enough for me to have a different idea...Price (is related to what kind of jobs I get as an architect and what they pay me):
[] It's expensive;
[] Specially if I'm deploying it in all my team members.Conclusion:
[] I don't know if I have time to fully test it for a month;
[] I'm not willing to risk it at this point;
[] I'll keep following it and keep hoping it will get better than Revit and the likes;
[] In the meantime I feel sketchup has a fair price and suites me well enough.
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