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Hello Andrew,
I am not sure it is necessary to patronize SU's user with your comments on "what we need". We can figure out what is going on in the 3D CAD industry and decide for ourselves where we want to spend our money, how much, and under what purchasing conditions.I also believe you are over-reaching with your comment that what you have will "far surpass our expectations". I can assure you the programmers at Vectorworks, Archicad, Revit, and the like are yawning at that observation. Some have been at what you have just begun to code for the past 30 years.
Again, I may not like to work with those programs (I have them all, and yes, I own them), but they are first-class.I am sorry the code nasties are doing their usual devious number on you and your colleagues. This is highly unfortunate, yet a fact of life for any programmer. There must be a way for you to allow potential users a free trial period of enough time for anyone to determine if they want to buy the program. We will not pay for it only to "return it" if it is not right for us.
No need to explain 'hybrid' modelling to us. We know what is missing in SK and would love to see it implemented well, like with Plusspec, for example.
You push too hard on the business benefits we would derive. Let us decide that for ourselves.
Here is a question you have not addressed: what happens if you decide---or Heaven forbid, are forced out of business,either after 6 months, or 5 years. What happens to the subscription user. They are left with nothing they can use for their payments. It just does not work....
Here is what I suggest:
- A one time purchase price to be no more than the cost of SK---less than $500US.
- Upgrade pricing annually that is reflective of the improvements and changes you have made. Again, because we are SK, no more than the actual cost of SK.
- A reasonable free trial period.
Here is the thing: my sense is that we all want you and your firm of programmers to succeed. If good (and let us decide), Plusspec---as a one time purchase, would be a superb addition to the SK arsenal of tools. Absolutely superb.
Please listen. It is never too late to correct a flawed business model. Well, almost never....
You have my sincere best wishes.
David
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Andrew and others thanks for taking the time to reply.
I would agree with David that there must be a way to trial the software. Yes unscrupulous people do try and crack software but that applies to all software and I can hardly think of another vendor that doesn't just accept that if they want to get new business then this is a fact of life. There must be ways to make it more difficult to crack. In any case those that want cracked software would be unlikely to purchase it legally anyway. If the software is as good as it is made out to be then we need to be given the opportunity to find this out for ourselves. It is also an individual need. For example how good is PlusSpec in a UK environment. Is there UK specific content? How easy is it to create 2D plans and drawings? These types of questions could be answered by a demo.
If you don't rethink this policy I'm not absolutely saying no to the money back trial but I am very reluctant to do so. It's only because there is no alternative however that I'm even considering it not because I want to.
The other issue putting me off is the subscription but this seems to be becoming more prevalent now, so again I won't absolutely say no. I do find it strange however Andrew that 9 months ago you stated that you 'hate' subscriptions, yet here we are with a subscription model. It's your decision though but as I stated previously the subscription offer is not that appealing either with no added value for subscribing apart from the value of the software itself. There is no installation allowed on more than 1 PC for example. I often however take my laptop out of the office and I would be very reluctant to buy a second license for this. I know you can transfer a license but the process does not appear to be instant and involves emailing the company which is clunky and involves waiting on a response.
There are now more and more BIM vendors entering the market and not just expensive offerings such as Archicad and Revit. I would prefer to stick with a SketchUp environment however as I've used it since Version 1 and would much prefer to use something familiar like PlusSpec which involves the core software that I use. I'm not saying that I definitely wouldn't give it a try but at the moment the vendor policy is not making it easy to decide to do so apart from the assertion that it's great!
Andrew if you could give some thought to the points made by myself and others then I would appreciate it, as would many others and possibly even your business I suspect!
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The fact is this:
I don't have an absolute need for it;
For me it's a lot of money;
It will probably be good for me to have it;
It will probably justify the money;
It will probably make me loose a lot of precious time learning it and I have other stuff to do so I can't be sure that after a month I will have decided;
If I will have it then my office will have it too;
For me that is a huge investment that I can hardly afford;
So I would have to be ABSOLUTELY sure that it was not a wimp of wanting but an absolute need I haven't found yet;
I'd have to be sure but, as you can see, I am not... -
I agree with a lot of the comments here. I have only my story to add:
I understand the desire to protect your software, but I believe the pricing model is only encouraging the use of cracked software. I must confess that while I was a student and new graduate (during a recession), I used cracked software (not SU, though with its free version). I couldn't afford to buy the software at the time. Ironically, in the early days, it was cracked software that generated the income to allow me to buy the legitimate counterparts. I bought the cheap software first, then the more expensive; with its reasonable price, Sketchup Pro (v7, I think) was the first architectural package I purchased.
Yes, it was illegal, but I think I made things right in the end. I don't think that story is uncommon. I've met plenty of freelancers straight out of university who were using illegal software. If I employ them, I have been known to make them add extra on their invoice so they can purchase legal versions!
What I am trying to convey, is that with PlusSpec's pricing model, you put more people in the bracket of "won't buy, but will use the cracked version". I am not saying it's right - just that it is a fact of life. I might go further to say that this demographic of people are exactly the kind of people you want on your side for the long term - these are the young and the startups who are open to doing things differently, but with a small wallet. They would be the ones who'd spread the word widest.
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Hey guys thanks for taking the time to comment.
Universities currently get PlusSpec for $66, Students get PlusSpec for $66 via university.
There is plenty of stuff on YouTube that shows live working in PlusSpec.
https://www.youtube.com/user/rubysketchI have to be straight guys, at this point in time I will not be reducing or changing the licensing system. If you choose not to buy it that is your call and I totally understand your situation, in return I want you to understand mine. If you really really want PlusSpec and you want to be a part of the team, PM me with your email address. I will always do my best to help out the little guy...
If you would like to win PlusSpec there is a competition on our site for the best use of Layout.
https://www.plusspec.com/pluspec-layout-competition.html This is a great way to get yourself exposure and a great way to get PlusSpec for Free. ... and yes you can submit existing work.......Or I can throw down the gauntlet and give a one time opportunity.
If you are or you know a CAD genius I do not care what software they use: Revit Archicad , Bentley or the best Sketchuper in the world.
If the intern in my office (Grant 19 years of age(
Grant does not know this yet)) can not draw up and estimate a job 5 times quicker than the fastest person in the world or the fastest person you can get. I will give everyone that has posted above this line 5 years for free! Ouch that could hurt 
.I will get Drew to start a new post on Sketchucation with all of the details and lets have a good old fashion race... like they did in the old days just a bit more geeky
.Now I have to get back to work. Talk soon.
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Andrew, thanks for contributing to this thread. Whether we agree with your business model or not it's good to see that you are happy to discuss things with potential users. I also think its great that many people want to use your software which shows a demand for the software although the conditions of purchase may not be suitable for all.
Anyway how you run your business is up to you, but it might be worth considering whether a different sales model which offers more lower priced purchase choices may get a lot more users (including myself!) and ultimately more profits for your company, although I understand that is probably for the future.
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Andrew, plusspec looks like the type of program I could drop money on in a heartbeat but without a demo or at least having some questions answered that I have posted a couple of times before I cant take the risk. I want Plusspec to succeed, I cant stand the current range of bloatware out there like Revit and ArchiCAD but paying for a trial just seems wrong. Pirates will always find a way, the only people you hurt are the honest customers who want to see if your software can do what they want. You wont lose customers by having a demo version, you will surely gain!
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The facts for me are:
Features (are related to what I do and how I do it, not in Plusspec itself):
[] I suspect I want it;
[] I don't need it as sketchup fulfils most of my needs;
[] There are features in it that could, if full featured, be useful;
[] I can't be sure the features I'd like to have are in there;
[*] The videos don't show enough for me to have a different idea...Price (is related to what kind of jobs I get as an architect and what they pay me):
[] It's expensive;
[] Specially if I'm deploying it in all my team members.Conclusion:
[] I don't know if I have time to fully test it for a month;
[] I'm not willing to risk it at this point;
[] I'll keep following it and keep hoping it will get better than Revit and the likes;
[] In the meantime I feel sketchup has a fair price and suites me well enough. -
CADMonkey What's wrong with ArchiCAD? There's a lite version for 2K that has just about everything for a small firm. A friend of mine trialed for a month and decided to get it. Looked impressive and especially documentation oriented. And I think for the one time price you "own" it.
I see both opinions here that the target clientele WILL try to hack PSpec and that they wouldn't
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@pbacot said:
CADMonkey What's wrong with ArchiCAD?
Hi, I trialled the lite version for 30 days and it was a struggle, maybe you cant teach an old dog new tricks
Some things it was great at and some things were very cumbersome, so I decided against a purchase.
Sketchup is just so easy and intuitive, if plusspec is as easy to use as sketchup is then I definitely want it to succeed. I have no doubt that at some point Trimble will release a similar program so plusspec has some time to get itself in front. -
Cadmunkey has made some solid observations:
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Any way you try to tackle it, Archicad is just cumbersome, and in many ways, needlessly complex. I have Version 18 and I still---after many attempts to learn it, find it almost impenetrable to figure out how to use effectively for buildings.
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SK is indeed easy and intuitive. This is why I am here with 'the little program that could"...
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This comment is quite astute: Trimble--no fools, will at some point offer the graphical ability to parametricize objects and permit them to be both 2D & 3D. They will also offer the product for a one time sale, and it will be in line with the cost of SK. They do understand volume sales. I can only imagine they intend to grab major market share of the BIM industry. They will.
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This is why I believe PS should take a reflective moment to look down the programming road. Their moment is now. Why not take our money as we are offering and suggesting they should. Three one time purchases of $300US, multiplied by many hundreds (and more) can't be all bad, right....?
But good luck to you Andrew (BTW, I know what it is like to have employees on a job site. If lucky, it is barely controlled chaos. If not.....). Best.
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@dsorensen said:
- This comment is quite astute: Trimble--no fools, will at some point offer the graphical ability to parametricize objects and permit them to be both 2D & 3D. They will also offer the product for a one time sale, and it will be in line with the cost of SK. They do understand volume sales. I can only imagine they intend to grab major market share of the BIM industry. They will.
They surely release new BIMalike features every new version.
Parametrics is half developed with DC's poor UI and some other functional, annoyances.
Doors and windows surely are non existent in Native Sketchup and hole cutting components should be revamped for this to succeed.
Reports are also cumbersome and neglected.
Layout is being pushed up and getting more and more workeable, but still not there yet. We can manage with it yet it must get way better.
Everything else just works so well that the above seem secondary...
I have no doubt Trimble's intentions toward AEC/BIM are way up there!
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I can see where with SU you can just get to the bone of your design, where you have to be sort of "explaining" your details to a more complex BIM modeler or "tricking" it to do something that isn't built-in. I noticed my friend seems to have more luck with a warehouse than a contemporary residence on ArchiCAD.
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@utiler said:
What I do see however is an opportunity for us as designers to extend our offering to clients in the way of BOQ's given the back end power of PlusSpec. Do yourself a favor and send out a set of plans to a quantity surveyor / estimator and ask for a quote to supply a take off? That's what you will be able to charge after clicking this button. [attachment=0:3vwlrphf]<!-- ia0 -->2015-03-06_0921.png<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment:3vwlrphf]
What you are saying is incorrect, you can offer a guide, but as far as the structural elements go you would need engineering for the steel, a good understanding of the various codes for timber, etc
Then other areas would require the professional input like a proper quote for the kitchen cupboards, stairs etcThe client still needs to go the relevant professions to realise the practicality and cost of his project. Is a professional going to reduce his price just because you got a BIM drawing?
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Hi fellas, I read through this thread from front to back last night and its interesting feedback. Lucky for me, Andrew introduced me to PlusSpec quite early on so I've been working along with its development and for me, there is so much more to the program that meets the eye. I concur with everyone's thoughts that it seems an expensive add-on to SketchUp and there lies the challenge for Rubysketch to find the ideal balance for consumers.
What I do see however is an opportunity for us as designers to extend our offering to clients in the way of BOQ's given the back end power of PlusSpec. Do yourself a favor and send out a set of plans to a quantity surveyor / estimator and ask for a quote to supply a take off? That's what you will be able to charge after clicking this button.
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I think you will find the whole BOQ side is of little interest to architects in the US. It's a different way of working.
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I did say, 'take off' didn't I, Philip? Obviously the structural elements of the building would need an RPEQ qualified engineer but as for timber design and [again] 'take-offs' are all done for you.
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Agreed. Boq's are a red herring.
The real value of PS---if Andrew will allow us a free demo to determine this for ourselves, is if the plugin has parametric walls, floors and roofs (editable together...!!), and if the components like doors & windows are hybrid 2D-3D.
If so, that would be a major addition to the SK toolkit, but as it stands (at $1000US for a yearly subscription) I suspect there are very few of us who will want to play (I have no idea who the Co's or individuals Andrew is referring to that might happily be throwing that kind of money in his general direction.....).
But to the central question...Andrew: what happens to subscribers if you go out of business, or decide you don't want to program upgrades anymore? What does a subscriber have if at the end of any given year, if you are no longer there.....?
Please answer this.
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@dsorensen said:
But to the central question...Andrew: what happens to subscribers if you go out of business, or decide you don't want to program upgrades anymore? What does a subscriber have if at the end of any given year, if you are no longer there.....?
Please answer this.
I'm pretty sure that if plusspec would close the doors, they would find a way for people to use it endlessly.
For me the BOQ is always human made. Quantities of materials and building elements are important but there's no software that can determine the complexity of a job on site or the effort workers will put on something. That is where a cost estimate will eventually fail completely for one contractor, and be completely on the spot for the other.
I do think, however BOQ's shouldn't be underapreciated. The thing is they should always get an experienced eye over it and I can't trust the computer for that.
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Hi everybody!
I stopped using Vectorworks because Sketchup is cheaper, better in 3D modeling and it has a big uses database around the world.
Vectorworks costed me about 3000 euro + a yearly 720 euro subscription. I wanted to made BIM drawings where I could generate all drawings from 1 3D model. The subscription made no sense at all.
They promised me BIM but it didn't work well, all I get for the yearly upgrade was a new version with no better BIM modeling tool. I hated it. So that's why I cancelled.Now, as an architect, I use Sketchup with a tool called SKALP, to make architectural drawings with hatches that looks exactly the same as in Vectorworks. One payment of 59 euro for SKALP and free upgrades. That's fair!
The price of Sketchup for a business is very low, and something like 99 euro for a new version is very low as well.I heard about Plusspec some months ago. I emailed them several times to ask about a version for the Dutch market, I never got any response. The price is horrible, it's even more expensive than Vectorworks's yearly subscription.
What I expect for a subscription, and what I expect before buying, is great service and to know the upgrades will be fast and good! I don;t know what I'm buying because Plusspec don't answer any of my questions.I bought CONDOC tools, which should be used to make construction documents in Sketchup and Layout. Yearly costs are 250 euro. But here it comes, and why I hate yearly subscriptions, I don't get any help from CONDOC, no support, their website is horrible with a forum that almost nobody uses. The only way to get my answers is to schedule a 90 dollar 90 minute phone call with the owner to get any support. This makes no sense at all.
And now I receive 3 emails a week via their newsletter where they ask me to buy CONDOC. Dammit, I already bought it, I just need tips and answers to my questions to make it work!!!It's all about marketing!!!!!! If you have something great, which Plusspec can be, make it available to everyone! Sketchup is used around the world and has millions of users. Ofcourse not all business and people will buy, but to make it work and to make it profitable, you need a lot of people to use it. You can't expect me to pay almost 1000 dollars yearly to someone I don't trust. Make me trust you, and answer my questions for example.
Why didn't Plusspec asked us what we would be willing to pay? That is such an important question!!!
If everybody wanted to pay like 200 dollars once, and 59 dollars for a yearly subscription to get updates, you know what to do. Make that work for you or stop developing it.I understand that it took lots of money and time to develop Plusspec, but to earn it back in a short time to ask us to pay 1000 dollars yearly is just strange. See all reactions above, almost nobody will pay 1000 dollars yearly, even Vectorworks or Revit are cheaper... With this expensive subscription only a few people will buy and you won't make any profit. Nobody is happy. And 1000 dollars a year I expect to be treated like a king, I have input to make Plusspec better, I get updates all the time, we have scheduled calls with developers to make it better, you call me to ask how I work to make Plusspec better, I get the best tutorials from you to make it work, I get access to a Plusspec community to learn from each other, Plusspec will work for the Dutch market (we build different in Holland than in Australia) etc etc etc.
Hope this helps!
Cheers!
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