Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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Alan, again, nothing personal intended. I thought I was addressing the larger "fact vs. faith" dispute. No harm done I hope...
However, considering some of the other posts being done now, this thread has run it's useful course for me. As it has nothing further to offer, I'll say, "adios" folks ...
Cheers
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Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus - L.Wittgenstein
Question mentioned in the title of this thread leads directly to the traps of language.
Thinking about the existence/nonexistence of God is full of paradoxes one can't solve using our limited minds and linear language...On the other hand.. it is fun
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@starling75 said:
Thinking about the existence/nonexistence of God is full of paradoxes one can't solve using our limited minds and linear language...
On the other hand.. it is fun
No, it is NOT "fun" - IT IS VITAL!
Finally it is eternal life, with God, or hell, apart from God ... -
@unknownuser said:
@starling75 said:
Thinking about the existence/nonexistence of God is full of paradoxes one can't solve using our limited minds and linear language...
On the other hand.. it is fun
No, it is NOT "fun" - IT IS VITAL!
Finally it is eternal life, with God, or hell, apart from God ...Sorry, I am not follower of this eternal life vs hell concept.
Since God is perceived to be omnipotent and omniscient - he/she/it must be inevitably fluctuating on infinitesimally thin border between existence and nonexistence, sense and nonsense, good and evil....After all, I am from my country
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@ Starling75. God meets our needs , not our whims…!
Jesus said:“The will of Him, who sent Me, is that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
“Verily, verily, I say to you, he who believes in Me has EVERLASTING LIFE.” (John 6:40,47) -
@solo said:
Cornel, no point debating this issue, not all kids believe in Santa Claus, some are clever enough to realize how silly and impossible it is...same goes for religion.
The same goes for a FALSE religion, but not for a TRUE FAITH, in a TRUE GOD!
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@unknownuser said:
The same goes for a FALSE religion, but not for a TRUE FAITH, in a TRUE GOD!
And how can you tell exactly which is a TRUE FAITH?
I'd rather accept TRUE ATHEISM or TRUE CAPITAL LETTERS. -
Everlasting life is not the prize for a winner but nightmare.
Cornel, your citations of Bible and Jesus guy are irelevant for my perception of the world.
In fact it's quite a bit annoying.... -
where did god come from?
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if we discover other planets which harbor life, would that change anything as far as your(believer) percepeptions on god/bible is concerned?
how about a visit from an alien civilization?
(though I'm pretty sure if they decided to pay us a visit, they'd be able to clear a lot of this nonsense up for us) -
@solo said:
...Bible...
I'ts a crock of shit, used by the rich, governments and special interest to control the masses, make tons of money and invoke fear and hate.
Religion is the biggest industry in America and controls the government by means of lobbying and direct intervention, they pay no taxes and get funds from taxpayers... the church still controls the power and causes wars as it always has, just now it is no longer the Catholics, now it's the radical fundamental American churches with all the power.
Beg your pardon sir, you are not talking about real christianity .
True christianity is not about religion it's about a true relationship with God and others ,but since you don't believe in God...
I wouldn't talk that nasty about a Book which established most of the world Constitutions . I wouldn't talk that ugly about a book which I know at least 3 friends of mine would have that book as a angle for their life .
I wouldn't talk that bad about a book that has been proven as true and as Word of God..but then,again you don't believe in God...Then at least respect us, a few, who still believe in it, if you find us as trustworthy people.
Thank you !
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@ely862me said:
I wouldn't talk that bad about a book that has been proven as true and as Word of God..
Your other arguments are quite reasonable. This one, however, isn't. The Bible hasn't been proven true. And no, there can be no debate whatsoever about the meaning of "proven true". Either something is proven to be true, or it hasn't - there's no inbetween.
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@unknownuser said:
@ely862me said:
I wouldn't talk that bad about a book that has been proven as true and as Word of God..
Your other arguments are quite reasonable. This one, however, isn't. The Bible hasn't been proven true. And no, there can be no debate whatsoever about the meaning of "proven true". Either something is proven to be true, or it hasn't - there's no inbetween.
Well there is something inbetween.. depends on what logical system you choose.
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Fair enough. Still, I must insist a thesis is either proven or unproven. Possessing a degree of plausibility and being corroborated by facual proof just aren't quite the same thing.
Apologies for the fuzzy English.
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@ely862me said:
I wouldn't talk that nasty about a Book which established most of the world Constitutions . I wouldn't talk that ugly about a book which I know at least 3 friends of mine would have that book as a angle for their life .
I wouldn't talk that bad about a book that has been proven as true and as Word of God..but then,again you don't believe in God...The bible didn't establish any constitutions. I think you might be refering to the 10 commandmants as theinspiration for some laws but even that claim is ludicrous.
Also if it had been proven as the true word of god we wouldn't have this discussion, there wouldn't be any need for it. People are not that dumb.Those of us who reject religion do so because we look at the facts and weigh them not because we work for the devil. And as such if the facts would be in favor of the bible or a god we would accept it.
@ely862me said:
Then at least respect us, a few, who still believe in it, if you find us as trustworthy people.
You don't deserve respect based only on your religious beliefs. I do call you my friend but none of the respect I have for you is because of what religious views you have.
You are going to be respected because you are trustworthy, talented and a kind person.
Also that is not going to stop anyone from judging the bible. As non-christians we are free to do so. -
Ahhhh Pete! That's a bit heavy! Its like me saying that your 'standards' are a crock of shit! Whether I agree or not with what's written in the bible or any other religious book, I don't think its acceptable debate to call it shit. I may call these books many other things though that would express my disapproval
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@unknownuser said:
Fair enough. Still, I must insist a thesis is either proven or unproven. Possessing a degree of plausibility and being corroborated by facual proof just aren't quite the same thing.
Apologies for the fuzzy English.
....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems
:"Gödel's first incompleteness theorem shows that any consistent formal system that includes enough of the theory of the natural numbers is incomplete: there are true statements expressible in its language that are unprovable.." -
Mike, Pete is justly frustrated by the influence that this poor excuse for a holy book still has on people and our lives in the 21st century.
Maybe the term "shit" is not appropriate here, but I would submit that "garbage" is. -
@mike lucey said:
Ahhhh Pete! That's a bit heavy! Its like me saying that your 'standards' are a crock of shit! Whether I agree or not with what's written in the bible or any other religious book, I don't think its acceptable debate to call it shit. I may call these books many other things though that would express my disapproval
I'm thinking there are a few people biting their tongues in this thread.. letting a 'crock of shit' slip out it surely an understatement of what really wants to be said.
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I see what Pete means. It's not an attack on someone's belief more the background on which the belief is based. If it's a pile of unproveable tales then it's fair to say that you find it a load of shit.
It's not fair to say that how someone lives their life is shit because the book is shit.
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