Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@unknownuser said:
you accept, unquestioningly, everything that is in the Bible...OT and NT...as fact, for no better reason than it's in the Bible. If you can't see the irony in that, there is little point in you having a discussion with anybody.
Tell you what, when you can prove to me, conclusively and irrefutably, that "facts" are more important than "faith", then I'll give up my faith convictions and live in a totally "factual" secular world.
The Bible is full of allegory and parables. It's faith, not fact that people need to find God. The Christ could have told people the "direct facts" about God, but he chose to speak in parables to the masses. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matt 11:15. The Christ said this on a number of occasions when we finished His parables. Why? Because for men to find God, they need to discern it in their hearts because it requires faith to accept Him. Even when the Christ spoke more directly to his chosen disciples concerning His parables, they had a hard time with some of it. If they had trouble, and they were right there in His presence, it's easy to understand why we, so many generation apart from Him, have issues.
Concerning the events, wars, famines, Jerusalem trodden underfoot, false Messiahs, etc. all I can say is it's not the events themselves but the timing that is important. It's in Revelations, but you'll have to take in on faith ...
Cheers.
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@IdahoJ
I was addressing Cornel. I don't know how many times I have to say that I don't have a problem with anyone regarding large parts of the Bible as allegory and parables. Such people tend to keep their faith within decent constraints and use it to live a good life...which is just fine. Many of my best friends fall into exactly that category. I'm well aware that a secular life is not for everyone.It's people that not only take the Bible as the literal truth but go on to extrapolate all other kind of nonsense that isn't even in there that are the problem. They hamper scientific progress, they hamper education...and as for the 'Rapture' evangelists...frankly, they ought to be strung up, or at least treated like any other con men. They ruin people's lives on a daily basis and give ordinary christians a bad name. They've mistranslated a single line in Thessalonians, mixed it in with the delusions of some frustrated Victorian spinster and created an entire cult out of thin air.
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@ ‘Alan F.’
When I was young, I was thinking about your way, but I seriously put on research (for decades), and I found that most biblical descriptions already occurred.
There are to achieve a few percent (but those things are already explained), which, by extrapolation, I see them trustworthy, as veridical. -
@unknownuser said:
@ ‘Alan F.’
When I was young, I was thinking about your way, but I seriously put on research (for decades), and I found that most biblical descriptions already occurred.
There are to achieve a few percent (but those things are already explained), which, by extrapolation, I see them trustworthy, as veridical.Obviously not seriously enough.
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@ ‘Alan F’ and ‘IdahoJ’
Bible must be taken literally first! Where exposures arise by parables, metaphorical, allegorical, symbolic, etc. this is mentioned in the text, or explained in context... -
You deceive yourself 'Alan T'. You will stay with laughter, and I with God...
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Alan, again, nothing personal intended. I thought I was addressing the larger "fact vs. faith" dispute. No harm done I hope...
However, considering some of the other posts being done now, this thread has run it's useful course for me. As it has nothing further to offer, I'll say, "adios" folks ...
Cheers
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Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus - L.Wittgenstein
Question mentioned in the title of this thread leads directly to the traps of language.
Thinking about the existence/nonexistence of God is full of paradoxes one can't solve using our limited minds and linear language...On the other hand.. it is fun
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@starling75 said:
Thinking about the existence/nonexistence of God is full of paradoxes one can't solve using our limited minds and linear language...
On the other hand.. it is fun
No, it is NOT "fun" - IT IS VITAL!
Finally it is eternal life, with God, or hell, apart from God ... -
@unknownuser said:
@starling75 said:
Thinking about the existence/nonexistence of God is full of paradoxes one can't solve using our limited minds and linear language...
On the other hand.. it is fun
No, it is NOT "fun" - IT IS VITAL!
Finally it is eternal life, with God, or hell, apart from God ...Sorry, I am not follower of this eternal life vs hell concept.
Since God is perceived to be omnipotent and omniscient - he/she/it must be inevitably fluctuating on infinitesimally thin border between existence and nonexistence, sense and nonsense, good and evil....After all, I am from my country
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@ Starling75. God meets our needs , not our whims…!
Jesus said:“The will of Him, who sent Me, is that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
“Verily, verily, I say to you, he who believes in Me has EVERLASTING LIFE.” (John 6:40,47) -
@solo said:
Cornel, no point debating this issue, not all kids believe in Santa Claus, some are clever enough to realize how silly and impossible it is...same goes for religion.
The same goes for a FALSE religion, but not for a TRUE FAITH, in a TRUE GOD!
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@unknownuser said:
The same goes for a FALSE religion, but not for a TRUE FAITH, in a TRUE GOD!
And how can you tell exactly which is a TRUE FAITH?
I'd rather accept TRUE ATHEISM or TRUE CAPITAL LETTERS. -
Everlasting life is not the prize for a winner but nightmare.
Cornel, your citations of Bible and Jesus guy are irelevant for my perception of the world.
In fact it's quite a bit annoying.... -
where did god come from?
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if we discover other planets which harbor life, would that change anything as far as your(believer) percepeptions on god/bible is concerned?
how about a visit from an alien civilization?
(though I'm pretty sure if they decided to pay us a visit, they'd be able to clear a lot of this nonsense up for us) -
@solo said:
...Bible...
I'ts a crock of shit, used by the rich, governments and special interest to control the masses, make tons of money and invoke fear and hate.
Religion is the biggest industry in America and controls the government by means of lobbying and direct intervention, they pay no taxes and get funds from taxpayers... the church still controls the power and causes wars as it always has, just now it is no longer the Catholics, now it's the radical fundamental American churches with all the power.
Beg your pardon sir, you are not talking about real christianity .
True christianity is not about religion it's about a true relationship with God and others ,but since you don't believe in God...
I wouldn't talk that nasty about a Book which established most of the world Constitutions . I wouldn't talk that ugly about a book which I know at least 3 friends of mine would have that book as a angle for their life .
I wouldn't talk that bad about a book that has been proven as true and as Word of God..but then,again you don't believe in God...Then at least respect us, a few, who still believe in it, if you find us as trustworthy people.
Thank you !
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@ely862me said:
I wouldn't talk that bad about a book that has been proven as true and as Word of God..
Your other arguments are quite reasonable. This one, however, isn't. The Bible hasn't been proven true. And no, there can be no debate whatsoever about the meaning of "proven true". Either something is proven to be true, or it hasn't - there's no inbetween.
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@unknownuser said:
@ely862me said:
I wouldn't talk that bad about a book that has been proven as true and as Word of God..
Your other arguments are quite reasonable. This one, however, isn't. The Bible hasn't been proven true. And no, there can be no debate whatsoever about the meaning of "proven true". Either something is proven to be true, or it hasn't - there's no inbetween.
Well there is something inbetween.. depends on what logical system you choose.
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Fair enough. Still, I must insist a thesis is either proven or unproven. Possessing a degree of plausibility and being corroborated by facual proof just aren't quite the same thing.
Apologies for the fuzzy English.
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