Do Mac's still have any solid graphical advantage over PC's?
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I've always considered a PC to be more of a hobbyists computer. You can argue the OSX is a better (read, easier to use) OS and that the case looks nicer. These are reasonable considerations and I might even concede that the ratio of users should probably be the reverse of what it currently is (~85% pc vs. ~15% mac) if only because the average person probably doesn't demand very much from a computer (what do you actually need to browse facebook at the local Starbucks?) With that in mind, better looking case and (arguably) more accommodating OS should be more common.
My problem with Macs is that you have the computer that you get and that's it. You pay a premium for a good quality machine and it's a closed system. A PC, on the other hand, can be bought from Dell or HP or (better) built part by part. This is where the hobbyist part comes in. You can choose exactly what components to use -- where to spend money and where to save. How to set up the cooling, overclocking, etc., and when it starts to get a little long in the tooth you just upgrade certain parts. You can expect certain core parts to survive several years/systems.
I imagine the enjoyment of this is similar to people that would rather fix up a cheaper car to be something really awesome than buy a BMW.My only day to day use with an apple product is my ipod which I love/hate. I might be wrong, but I imagine this is indicative of apple as a company in general. It generally does what I want, is small and unobtrusive but is so controlling. Only certain file types, it has to be used with itunes, it can't just connect to any computer. Why does it have to be a good package that is so restrictive? Why not just drag-and-drop whatever file types instead of having to use their organizing software.
Finally, is it significant that bootcamp (or whatever) is so popular, just to run windows programs but there is no demand for the reverse?
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@dsarchs said:
Finally, is it significant that bootcamp (or whatever) is so popular, just to run windows programs but there is no demand for the reverse?
the reverse is that people buy macs.
well that and the fact that it's illegal to use OS X on non-apple computers but some people still do it.. it's called a hackintosh -
It's getting so they are all the same nowadays. . .
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@dsarchs said:
Finally, is it significant that bootcamp (or whatever) is so popular, just to run windows programs but there is no demand for the reverse?
That's a really interesting point. I wonder if the reason is that there are some things that Windows can do that OSX simply CAN'T do (ie. run AutoCAD) and so if you're going to use a Mac you need those workarounds. But as a Windows user, I've never thought, "crap I'd need OSX to do/open/run that."
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
That's a really interesting point. I wonder if the reason is that there are some things that Windows can do that OSX simply CAN'T do (ie. run AutoCAD)
brodie,
maybe you missed this?
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=15421056&siteID=123112anyway, i think the whole bootcamp thing is more/less a marketing ploy by apple to get people to switch to buying their computers instead of a pc.. probably a very successful venture by apple but that brings up a different thing.. apple is very very good at marketing.. i'm skeptical of them but somehow i've owned at least 7 macs, a few phones, and a handful of ipods.
maybe i'm just a sucker
[that said, i've never had any serious problems with the computers.. i had an issue with one of the phones but it was handled very well and replaced]
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It was not so long ago that I was having a similar discussion in the pub with a DTP friend of mine, he noticed I had an iPhone, he knew I drive an Infinity and BMW, I am working with graphics all day and just assumed based on my choices that I was a Mac guy like him. We chatted briefly about this and he also said the only reason he uses a Mac is because he always has and knows the ins and outs, he did mention that the screen resolutions are a plus for him, but that's another whole topic.
So I guess it really comes down to the OS IMO, when and if Apple becomes a bigger player (cannot see it really happening) then they will get the same malware, virus attention proportional to their market share, like the iPhone attacks and hacks, so will the OS go.The thing for me is I like to build or have my PC built according to what I need, I'd also like to change and upgrade when I can before the need to buy a new machine when the Mobo no longer supports the needed upgrade. I normally buy the cheapest, ugliest practical case but stuff it full of the best innards I can afford as to me it's not how sweet the ride looks but how fast it goes.
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I had missed AutoCAD for Mac, very interesting
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Another aspect regarding performance that hasn't been mentioned here is the quality of drivers.
Comparing a plenty of benchmarks (examples) lets assume that the effort that hardware producers put into driver development seems (partly) to depend on the size of the user base/ market share. If someone needs a high performing computer system, the "performance of the operating system" often isn't as important as the chosen hardware and its drivers. -
@aerilius said:
Comparing a plenty of benchmarks
I should point out that these figures are now rather out of date, because there was a major fix for 3D graphic speed in 10.6.5 (probably a call from Autodesk as Autodesk port their entire suite of 3D apps to Mac!)
This is however all rather elementary. A bit like those who obsess over which camera lenses are sharper than other makes of other lenses. The site Dpreview are a classic example of this failing, because all they ever talk about are specifications as opposed to handling. And if you look in the gallery, the pictures have no sense of composition to them either, ie they're generally not very good images.
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brodie,
perhaps the answer to your questions lies behind the answer to this question: why do most advertising agencies and video/film companies use macs?
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@unknownuser said:
But as a Windows user, I've never thought, "crap I'd need OSX to do/open/run that."
I take it you've never used Logic (a pro DAW) then?
Logic started life on Atari as C-Lab Notator/Creator. It then was ported to Windows and Mac as eMagic Logic. Then in the early naughties, Apple bought eMagic, and dropped support for Windows. As you can imagine, there was a major outcry. But many then made the switch from Windows to Mac, simply because MIDI and Audio were built into Mac OSX (like the Atari), and there was no hunting around to find the 'ultimate' driver for it. Most simply didn't have the time to fiddle around getting latency on the PC to work well.
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@edson said:
brodie,
perhaps the answer to your questions lies behind the answer to this question: why do most advertising agencies and video/film companies use macs?
exactly. Final Cut Pro and Logic 8!
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@edson said:
brodie,
perhaps the answer to your questions lies behind the answer to this question: why do most advertising agencies and video/film companies use macs?
Perhaps part of social identification?
Why do most
and use linux..? -
I think it's all about continually tinkering under the bonnet. If these people must, then let them be!
Both my brother and my father suffer from this obsession with Linux tinkering- I know it well!
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As we start moving towards GPU performance it gets a little trickier for Macs as many have noticed, the reason for this is not the hardware they use as it's all the same as a regular PC user, the problem probably is not even software, the problem is policy.
Apple has a closed software system, so if you need to upgrade your Nvidia card well then you are gonna have to wait or do without as just downloading new drivers is not as simple as going to the manufacturers site and downloading and installing, you need to wait until Apple has created that driver and released it, normally when they get around to it the card is a few upgrades behind. -
Do you really notice any difference? I mean I updated the drivers for an Nvidia card in my HP workstation. I be damned if could could have noticed the difference. Updates for the Mac come one or twice every couple of months or so. When an update for a card is needed, it's patched. I don't see the problem.
PS, as it ever occured to you that these patches for Windows may be needed- because MS are forever adding security fixes to their software. My Compaq had about 80 (!) security patches download the other day!
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@edson said:
brodie,
perhaps the answer to your questions lies behind the answer to this question: why do most advertising agencies and video/film companies use macs?
I don't know, do they? I mean, I wouldn't necessarily be all that surprised I guess, but has anyone ever really done any empirical research in to what percentage of film companies use macs vs. pcs?
Assuming it's true though, I'm not sure why they do...that's sort of my question. Based on later responses, I'd venture to guess that maybe there's some software that's geared more towards Mac? If that's truly the case though, that's fairly damning because in 99.9% of cases the situation will be reversed where the required software is more geared towards PC's based on the larger user base.
-Brodie
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@tfdesign said:
@unknownuser said:
But as a Windows user, I've never thought, "crap I'd need OSX to do/open/run that."
I take it you've never used Logic (a pro DAW) then?
Logic started life on Atari as C-Lab Notator/Creator. It then was ported to Windows and Mac as eMagic Logic. Then in the early naughties, Apple bought eMagic, and dropped support for Windows. As you can imagine, there was a major outcry. But many then made the switch from Windows to Mac, simply because MIDI and Audio were built into Mac OSX (like the Atari), and there was no hunting around to find the 'ultimate' driver for it. Most simply didn't have the time to fiddle around getting latency on the PC to work well.
haha, I got quite offended at first when you asked me if I never use logic!
As for "Logic", no, never heard of it. It doesn't sound like something I'd need in arch-viz. I have Adobe's Presentation suite or whatever they call it which includes Premiere and After Effects, both of which I use but not often. Mostly though I'm doing stills in PS.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
@tfdesign said:
@unknownuser said:
But as a Windows user, I've never thought, "crap I'd need OSX to do/open/run that."
I take it you've never used Logic (a pro DAW) then?
haha, I got quite offended at first when you asked me if I never use logic!
As for "Logic", no, never heard of it. It doesn't sound like something I'd need in arch-viz.
Sorry. I didn't mean to offend you!
Before I worked on Archviz, I was a musician (as well as a photographer!- which I still am!)- I have two LP's out, (both on iTunes). I used Logic most of the time, and have also been using it to create sound effects and the like for backing tracks. I also use iMovie, which is like a cut down version of Final Cut Pro.
The Mac just rocks with that software. -
Brodie
to answer the question in the topic title:
"Do Mac's still have any solid graphical advantage over PC's?"The answer is NO. And for people doing pretty heavy CG stuff they're actually worse (don't want to start a flame war so I'll explain)
The main problem here is drivers and performance.
First drivers: mac doesn't support nothing above opengl 2.3 (but they're getting upgrade to 3 in a short time, i think...), and has you know opengl had became famous because it used a lot for CG software. Now today you still see examples of this: Mari can't be released to mac, and autocad for mac is receive a lot of complaints because is simply too slow compared to windows version (but don't take this too serious... is autodesk afterall ).Performance: plain simple it's the same...if the hardware is the same and the software is the same you'll notice no difference (this from personal experience). Now the problem is Companies and Freelancers in this business normally update/buy new hardware about 2 in 2 years (more or less of course) and from budget point of view when you ask yoursef "i need a computer that can run Cinema 4d (this because runs in pc/mac, but replace by any 3d package) photoshop, vray, after effects etc. and I'm going to spend 1500$ in each pc (that probably will be replace in 2 years) what will allow me to work, render, do faster and bigger? a i3 3.0 4Gg ram Geforce 310 mac or a i7 12Gg ram Geforce 470 pc?".
Think like this if mac was better why does Blur (the reference right now in cinematic for games) just use dell workstations? Hell, the irony of irony's; Steve jobs who was for a long time CEO and it's right know the biggest single shareholder at PIXAR, and, well, they don't even use iOS...
Now for me mac took a turn in the wrong direction in this market. I've worked professionally with both at the same time in brand new ones, but it's simply not the same years ago with the IBM Processors on it (anyone remembers?
) and better screens (for the ones who don't know the mac screens we're famous in digital work at the beginning because they normaly had a more colours and had 15% more gamma if i remember correctly). Now we've got the same processors that we have in pc but more expensive and if you need a good or professional screen you don't buy mac you'll probably buy Lacie or something...A friend of mine, that right now it's partner in company that does multimedia works for tv, web, etc., says that he remember when mac was the only one that opened big files (well he had to left it overnight but it was open in the morning lolol) and the other PCs would simply die trying in the first minutes. He said that for heavy work a mac worksation was the beast backt then. Well, some years have passed and there's not a single Mac in that company, simply because he can't afford to pay more for less especially when he's always on a tight deadline.
Of course if mac hadn't took that turn, they were probably much bigger in CG but certainly not as big as right now in the mainstream (so yeah i understand they're move and i would probly did the same)
BTW i've done work for advertising agencies/architects/tvs etc. (i'm finishing one to deliver on monday right now) and some use mac but normally more just for vector graphical work (illustrator mainly and that's not even 64bits), the big stuff 3D illustrations and Photoshop illustrations are outsourced either to freelancers or CG companies, if they don't have the man and machine power to do it. But things can change as renting render farms get cheaper or when every software move to the cloud (hope not, but that's a different topic
)
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