Which CAD program?
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@rabbit said:
Finally, it is not a silly idea to use bootcamp on a MAC at all; in fact a lot of people use MAC's without ever using the mac os at all - this is because the Mac hardware and build quality is very good compared to many other, espically laptop, companies.
Yes, Apple hardware is fairly well built- this Macbook Pro has been on 24/7 for the last 4 years- and it is still working (unlike my shite HP laptop, which both PSU and hard drive and screen have already died, having said that, the DVD writer has been playing up a bit recently), but then if I had bought say a Sony Vaio, that too would still be working. But a Sony is cheaper than an Apple. You buy an Apple for it's operating system- Mac OSX!! It's madness to buy a Mac just to run Windows- you, if only to run windows, are simply buying it for a 'pose', because the glowing Apple logo against the silver backdrop says "Look at me. I'm a creative kind of guy"! "Look, I'm... err,.... running Windows
"!!! 
Rabbit, I'm sorry for being so pernickety, but why do you (and all other guilty parties) keep writing "Mac" as "MAC"? I'm completely confused.
"Mac" is an abbreviation of "Macintosh". MAC is something completely different. ie "MAC address"- which, btw, Macintosh also posses. Where is the emoticon for banging one's head against the table??! Can anyone please tell me why they always use MAC rather than Mac?
And yes, you are right, Rhino is very good, and I really respect McNeel for getting the application right before release
Tom
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Hmmm... Tom, what are you smoking in that pipe...?
mac, Mac, MAC....whatever, never thought about it, no doubt you are right.
I think really that , when you say your macbbook pro has been chugging it out for the last four years 24/7 then that just supports my case. you say a sony would still be working also, - who knows? maybe it would.
Between us my partner and I currently have four laptops - two acers, one hp, and one mac.
The oldest is a acer travelmate, that finally stopped working after about about 8 years.
The other acer is still going after about four years, the macbook is great after about 2.5 years, and the hp, which was the most expensive and highest spec, has ongoing problems after less than two years - the power supply died, now the screen has died (a known problem apparantly, and not worth the money to repair)
So now i need a new laptop that can run windows 7 64 bit, and really only Dell and the mac are in the running (sony has nothing with the same spec) - the mac has no numeric keypad, but is $200 cheaper than the dell, and about 1 kilo lighter (plus it also comes with the mac os). The dell has a faster processor, a slightly better video card, and all the other stuff is the same spec.
So it is a no-brainer really to go with the mac - it is just so much better in terms of build and design, and i fully expect it to be around in another 4,6 years...
And when rhino for the mac is up to speed, then maybe i will switch to the mac os for good...I couldn't give a toss about the apple logo, or apple posey stuff - I just want to do my job, without the hassle and downtime of the hardware dropping the ball...
cheers
rabbit -
Lene,
If you're starting your own BUSINESS, the answer to me is simple - go the Autocad route.
Get a NEW copy of Autocad LT OR if you can find one, an older FULL version of Autocad - but don't go below Autocad version 2000.
If you can find a copy of Autocad 2000 - great.You can download a plugin from SolidWorks that allows you to open / save any Autocad version - works well. (This enables you to open Autocad 2003 dwg files with Autocad 2000 for example).
..........
Autocad is the 800 LB Gorilla that sits in the corner that you can't ignore.
(as quoted many times on this Forum)
Its the most popular CAD program in the World. (doesn't mean its the best).It also works really well, back and forth with SU - especially if you have SU Pro.
................
Chances are you're clients will want data in Autocad format. (dwg / dxf 2d / 3d)
The only way to know FOR SURE that any data you produce is compatible - is to actually have Autocad.
The clones are OK, but... they aren't always perfect.Much better to spend a bit now - and keep your clients happy - not good to lose them.
Keep your clients happy and your business will grow.
(speculate to accumulate !!!)
................
Hope this helps
Howard L' -
Howard, I'm sorry, but that's nonsense about AutoCAD. that's exactly the kind of marketing BS that Autodesk would love everyone to believe! I have no problem whatsoever opening and exporting DWG files to and fro from AutoCAD to Highdesign for example (and on a Mac!). Yet HighDesign costs a fraction of the price of Acad LT. Hell, I even fooled my lecturers at university into believing that I'd used ACAD, when in fact I used a £13 shareware application called QCad to do the drawings- I still got an A!!
Don't believe the hype! Make a profit, not a loss!!!
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Smoking? Mac OSX of course! it's hot shit dude!
I used to smoke (both tobacco and occasionally, funny tobacco). When I reached 40, I quit. I could perhaps do with a smoke these days- as it might calm me down a bit? (in case you hadn't already noticed!?!
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@lene_iacobe said:
Hi there!
In short my work is space design for companies. I look at the space available, give advice on how to use it in the best way, with regards for knowledge sharing, etc.
A normal job would include me getting dwg files of the space; moving same walls, maybe putting in a kitchenette, etc. Never any real housebuilding.
I then do the interior decorating in 2D, make sure there’s enough room for everybody working there etc.
For the presentation I show the overall view in 2D, some details in 3D, and then reference photos of the furniture etc. This I do in InDesign.
My clients normally use AutoCad.To return to the original topic, I would guess that you would be able to do most of your work with SU, especially if your projects do not require the management of large amouts of space and construction data. For this kind of projects, even the CD-s could perhaps very well be produced with SU/Layout.
So am I right in assuming that your CAD needs would be mainly determined by needs to communicate with engineers or other consultants? In these cases following standards is the essential requirement, and the default exchange medium is still DWG files - things like IFC are still not in very general use.
For professional work, I would recommend standard solutions. If you choose to use a PC, take AutoCad LT, the full thing is ridiculously expensive for what you want to do. I do not know about Mac CAD solutions, but I understand that Vectorworks is something like a standard, and handles DWG decently.
My 2 cents
Anssi
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I have to agree with Anssi...Go with AutoCad LT or 100% dwg compatable clone for use with PC. Vectorworks seems like a good choice for Mac...but I do not have that much experience with it., and it is also not cheap.
I have licenses for AutoCad 2010, AutoCad Architecture 2010, and Revit 2008 ...and almost all of the 2D projects could be done with AutoCad LT.....2 of the past architectural firms I've worked for used AutoCad LT, and produced projects varying from Residential, Multi Family Housing, Retail & Medical Office Bldgs, Warehouses and Adaptive Re-use. Great way to start a business for PC based CAD work. The Dwg format is by far the most requested format for information transfer with a client or contractor. Get a trial copy of LT and some of the clones available and check test for yourself. Its also easier to find AutoCad trained help when you need to hire help.
Good Luck -
@cadward said:
The Dwg format is by far the most requested format for information transfer with a client or contractor.
That's absolutely true, and I cannot deny that one bit, BUT, AutoCAD LT does not run on a Mac, without Windows installed!
But why again, are we having even more suggestions from people who haven't had any experience of other platforms apart from PC's, even though the original demand was for that of a Mac based system?
Right. Okay. Here goes. The hard sell.
It is rather unfortunate that developers such as Engineered Software's PowerCADD 8, which is also fully compliant with the DWG/DXF format, and built 100% for OSX only, is pushed out of existence for the likes of Autodesk et al. Read the testimonials, try the demo, try Wildtools set, which make sketching in 2D fun!
I've experience of self inflicted alopecia, trying to get AutoCAD Architectural Desktop (LT's bigger brother) to sketch a simple helix. Further adding insult to injury to then taper that same helix, I threw in the towel. Wildtools within PowerCadd are an extremely powerful set of tools (I know, as I used PC7 before I did my degree) that allows you to do just that, amongst many other things of course, with ease.
Here is a list of many of the other functions available within PC8 while using WildTools;
Here's a list of what other architects and engineers have to say;
And lastly, I suppose that's almost it. Ultimately of course Lene, it is up to you. I too run my own business, and I have chosen to use Mac exclusively. Admittedly I do also own two PC's, but I am constantly frustrated at how developers for Windows don't always stick to standards, and when updates come, you then spend the best part of a day working out why a commonly used function has either been moved or called something else. As for that nasty "ribbon", now present within many a Vista and windows 7 application? Give me a break!
I've ditched Autodesk and Windows because despite what people say, there are alternatives out there, to the so called " de facto standard", and here I offer another real world DWG alternative that runs on Mac.
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Hey tfdesign
I have had experience with Mac platform....I found it interesting...but not as friendly as Mac supporters have claimed....I love their sense of product design....did not like their pricing structure....way to expensive... I took the approach of choosing the software that I needed to start my company. If you are into architectural design...PC is the platform to go with. That being said...I really do wish PC's were more concerned with product design....but when you come down to it...the look or shape of your computer really doesn't matter...Unless you have a designer office that you wish to show off....it's the software you use that matters...I personally do not like AutoDesk's pricing structure....But they do offer a very good product that is one of the architectural industry standard...if you can find a good AutoCad clone...go for it...I personally have been using AutoCad since 1990....and my business has benefitted from my decision....but if you can find a software that offers more...go for it...Just remember to buy one that offers good product support.The bottom line is to choose the best software for your business,,,then buy the computer that supports it.
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@cadward said:
Hey tfdesign
Hey cadward.
@cadward said:
I have had experience with Mac platform....
Have you now?
@cadward said:
I found it interesting...
a-huh... and..
@cadward said:
but not as friendly as Mac supporters have claimed....
Right. Not friendly? Okay. That's usually the answer I hear from people who work in pawn shops like 'cash converters', people who have never actually used a Mac. So, in what way? How do you mean? Isn't windows a 'pale copy' of Mac OS anyway? (or Apple's GUI, a copy of Xerox Parc, as some like to say?)
@cadward said:
I love their sense of product design....
So a Mac is about 'looks' like rather than 'function'?
@cadward said:
did not like their pricing structure....way to expensive...
Expensive? Sorry, but that's another popular Mac myth. A top of the range Macbook Pro is cheaper than a top of the range Dell laptop! And better built! You can also buy a very well specified Mac Mini for £420. What about the price of AutoCAD? Do you consider ACAD cheap? I could buy both say PC8 and a Mac Mini for the price of a seat of ACAD LT!
@cadward said:
I took the approach of choosing the software that I needed to start my company.
Yes. Likewise!
@cadward said:
If you are into architectural design...PC is the platform to go with.
Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Next you'll be arguing that is because there is more software available for PC's (more software, more training and, and I fear, more learning costs, less productivity etc)
@cadward said:
That being said...I really do wish PC's were more concerned with product design....but when you come down to it...the look or shape of your computer really doesn't matter...
Ah! So you do think that Mac users choose Mac's because they prefer their looks?
@cadward said:
Unless you have a designer office that you wish to show off....
There you go! You reckon it's all about the 'pose factor'?
I'd be a millionaire by now if every person who said that, each gave me a fiver! @cadward said:
it's the software you use that matters...
Yes, but not always. One of my colleagues, Mike, still prefers to use a pencil and a photocopier! I don't think Mike's pencil has ever even had an OS update, not to mention half a dozen of those security updates that occur each week. And as for the yearly service pack update, the 'update' costs about 30p.
@cadward said:
I personally do not like AutoDesk's pricing structure....
No I don't think many people do (and it is exactly one of the reasons that I don't support Autodesk!). But what makes this reasoning any different from those so called "high Apple prices"?
@cadward said:
But they do offer a very good product that is one of the architectural industry standard...
"one of the" ….."standards"…..a huh
@cadward said:
if you can find a good AutoCad clone...go for it...
Why would you necessarily want yet another clone of AutoCAD? What a shame that not a lot, in the world of 2D, because of such "industry standard" dinosaurs, such as ACAD, have ever bettered the genius of Ivan Sutherland's SketchPad at MIT, in the 1950's (<---click on link!)
@cadward said:
I personally have been using AutoCad since 1990....
Yes. It shows!
Do you really like that command line?
[quote="cadward":2qcoemgz]
and my business has benefitted from my decision....[/quote:2qcoemgz]So what you are saying is that software does the designing, instead of a good designer with an 'ounce of talent'? Hmm that kind of logic, is like saying, "purchase a Nikon, because it will make you take better pictures"?! Nonsense!
[quote="cadward":2qcoemgz]
but if you can find a software that offers more...go for it...[/quote:2qcoemgz]It's not really about more in a software, it is about productivity, and using a Mac at that!
[quote="cadward":2qcoemgz]
Just remember to buy one that offers good product support.[/quote:2qcoemgz]Pah! No comment!
FWIW, Apple's support is rated among the best in the world. Try getting good support from Autodesk and while attempting to avoid a remortgage of your home and possessions!
[quote="cadward":2qcoemgz]
The bottom line is to choose the best software for your business,,,then buy the computer that supports it.[/quote:2qcoemgz]Of course! So, what was the point of this last post
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Why does AutoCad have to be the 'standard'?
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Acad is an Architectural standard because in 2009, more then 90% of pc were win systems, while less the 6% were macs. Of the Win systems, the majority of Architects use Autocad. Doesn't mean that Acad is the best, but it is the standard, at least for architects. Btw, I do not use Acad for my Architectural drawings, but it is what it is.
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@mike lucey said:
Why does AutoCad have to be the 'standard'?
Indeed!
It should also be pointed out, and I apologise, as I don't know what the equivalent standard is in the USA or other parts of the world, but the British Drawing Standard on this is covered under BS 8888:2004 (product design) or BS 1192:2007 (architectural draughting). It is up to the individual to provide drawings to these standards, preferably also in 3rd Angle for product design, and a mixture of 1st and 3rd for architectural draughting, but how they arrive at producing drawings to these standards has nothing to do with using AutoCAD as a standard!
For example, a child could draw a number of lines in ACAD, and although the lines, probably a 'house with the sun setting and pretty flowers growing in the foreground' would be aesthetically pleasing to one's eyes, ACAD would not object to this! In fact any vector based application (including felt tip pens and crayons) could draw to BS 8888:2004 & BS 1192:2007!
I think I've made my point clear?
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To answer the original question, by the sounds of it, I think, you should just stick with sketchup.
If you want to be seen as professional, produce good looking work, well thought out and speak confidently about your schemes. How you get there shouldn't matter.
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@bocomofo said:
If you want to be seen as professional, produce good looking work, well thought out and speak confidently about your schemes. How you get there shouldn't matter.
I think this quote should be part of everyone's SCF signatures. Well said!
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Hey Tf
You seem to like to twist words a little. I was and am not bashing Apple products...please read my posts carefully.
I have owned my own company since 1990. So I think comparing me to a "cash converter or pawn shop clerk " is a little off base.
I owned an Apple computer....used it for 6 months....sold it....simple. Did not love it...did not hate it. It simply was not for me. No bashing or twisting comments. I just said I liked their sense of design....never commented on any lack of functionality.
as far as PC vs Mac as the platform to go with...call or talk to any architectural firm in your area and take a poll of what platform they use and what software they use. Your area may be different than here in the states. If I am wrong please accept my apology. But please research market share for an unbiased look. Also please check honoluludesktop's response...I think he states the facts accurately.
As far as asking the question about "do I really like using the command line?" It doesn't bother me. I rarely us it. Use shortcuts mostly....and getting used to the "ribbon". Do you use AutoCad....(please take no offense at my question....just wondering) If not ....what do you use for your architectural projects?
Your introduction of drawing standards BS 1192 has nothing to do with anything I said. Drawing Standards and .dwg is a standard drawing format in the architectural industry, are 2 different subjects.
Read the post carefully....where did I say that "software does the designing"?...please just discuss or argue with points made in the actual post....and as a matter of fact....I do shoot with a Nikon SLR (F3 & F4) and a Nikon DSLR (D200) and Sinar 4x5 ( F series and P series)...but thats a different discussion
I merely stated that AutoCad or any clone producing the .dwg format would be a good choice for the poster. Several other people here seem to agree. The poster even said that his clients used AutoCad.take a pill and chill out....but more importantly read the posts and be open to different points of view other than your own...
all opinions should be welcome....right? -
@unknownuser said:
You seem to like to twist words a little. I was and am not bashing Apple products...please read my posts carefully.
I have owned my own company since 1990. So I think comparing me to a "cash converter or pawn shop clerk " is a little off base.Oh come on. Where is your sense of humour? There I was giving it the emoticons on every line- relax!
What period did you own an Apple computer? An Apple IIe running mapplesoft basic?
Mac's have really come on since the days of Mac OS 9 and early OSX. Even software for Macintosh is cheaper than the Windows equivalents! (It did used to be the other way round).@unknownuser said:
Your introduction of drawing standards BS 1192 has nothing to do with anything I said. Drawing Standards and .dwg is a standard drawing format in the architectural industry, are 2 different subjects.
Yes I know. That post was merely pointing out that one does not have to follow industrial software standards to achieve drawing standards. My point is, and I know it is also your point too, is that it doesn't really matter what you use, as long as another party understands it. If you want to keep everything electronic, then dwg is the way to go. But why always choose AutoCAD? Why not Revit for e.g.? Autodesk have a very powerful marketing department. The way they work, isn't unlike that of Dassault Systemes either, who want everyone to believe that CATIA and Solidworks are the future for product design. It's endemic in British universities and it's mainly all marketing nonsense. Solidworks are really good at locking you into a system, their system. There is NO dwg export facility. Importing a DWG file into Solidworks, is very basic and, (Solidworks and Autodesk do not like each other very much it seems) discards the ACIS data, so you have to more or less start from scratch. Autodesk are trying to do the same- oddly Autodesk even lock out their own products- like Revit versus AutoCAD for eg! There should be one standard that all parties can read, but Autodesk are very good at playing silly buggers with the dwg format, and this is wrong.
As a designer (and photographer I may add), I work part time, because I also have young children. I'd probably be able to afford a nanny if I had RIBA status, but I don't, I'm only a 'technician'. But I am self employed, and I don't have enough income to buy a seat of AutoCAD, so I use alternatives where possible, even pencils and freeware.
@unknownuser said:
as far as PC vs Mac as the platform to go with...call or talk to any architectural firm in your area and take a poll of what platform they use and what software they use.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a PC versus Mac person- I use both, but I like to have a choice- it's democratic. I've already done a survey of different architectural firms as part of my degree, of what software they use, and I have to admit that you are quite right, many, do use AutoCAD LT (many also use SketchUp, Vectorworks and Archicad too- only one used Architectural Desktop), but only because they were either given the software (LT), or had received it as a free giveaway on the front of a magazine. Many were still on R12!
@unknownuser said:
I owned an Apple computer....used it for 6 months....sold it....simple. Did not love it...did not hate it. It simply was not for me. No bashing or twisting comments. I just said I liked their sense of design....never commented on any lack of functionality.
I apologise
. I am just used to (tired of) people who find Mac's, feminine in appearance, and 'not for the boys'. At university I was disallowed to comment on a comment made by one of the lecturers (who was a 'Dr', and not a very good one at that either), who said Mac's were better suited to graphic design than engineering- utter crap of course. Therefore I sometimes get a little over protective, of what I consider a very powerful computer!@unknownuser said:
As far as asking the question about "do I really like using the command line?" It doesn't bother me. I rarely us it. Use shortcuts mostly....and getting used to the "ribbon".
Yes the "ribbon". I find it a right pain in the a**e. I want everything neatly in order, from drop down boxes (like the Mac), in one place, in front of me- not a ribbon I have to keep scrolling back and forth to get at. I really hate the ribbon!
@unknownuser said:
Do you use AutoCad....
Yes, I have used AutoCAD. As a matter of fact, I was trained on ACAD Architectural Desktop as well as Solidworks. When you get out into the real world, people aren't using these packages generally, because they are too expensive. But they use LT because it is cheap- but my point is, because of this (I suppose like why Microsoft Windows is the world's most used OS too), designers don't change, they just stick to what they have got- this is a real shame.
@unknownuser said:
(please take no offense at my question....just wondering) If not ....what do you use for your architectural projects?
Please don't laugh, but I use Ribbonsoft's QCad (which I am also very ashamed to say, is an almost carbon copy of R12!
). But again, QCad works on all platforms. QCad is very inexpensive. It is also portable, so it can be used on any PC/ Mac or Linux based workstation. It's identical across the board so I can work anywhere on whatever computer- and have no problems with translations. Developers such as McNeel Associates are writing proper software, how both Microsoft and Apple would have wanted it (.NET and Cocoa), and the great thing is that both apps talk with one another- although the Apple version is still in alpha/beta. Autodesk' AutoCAD is Windows only. I hate that, because if forces you to use a specific format, and that format only. AND they do the same with their dwg file format. It's very wrong to keep changing the goal posts! 
I am seriously considering purchasing PowerCADD 8, because it is mind-blowingly great for a 2D application, and it IMHO, offers better tools that those in AutoCAD. The full version costing one quarter that of ACAD arch desktop (and no costly service pack updates). In my experience, 2D is still king.
Then again, I could just go for a pencil and paper? Mike (who I work with from time to time) works with Birmingham City Council, and they don't seem to mind the old pencil versions to the dwg's
I also use and love SketchUp!
@unknownuser said:
Read the post carefully....where did I say that "software does the designing"?...please just discuss or argue with points made in the actual post....and as a matter of fact....I do shoot with a Nikon SLR (F3 & F4) and a Nikon DSLR (D200) and Sinar 4x5 ( F series and P series)...but thats a different discussion
I used to own a Leica M6 and an M2 with 21 and 35mm lenses. I now have a Lumix G1 and an LX3, and a Nagaoka (Tachihara) 5x4 field camera too. My favourite was the old Yashica FX-3, which I still have, and working too) my mum gave me back in 1982.
@unknownuser said:
I merely stated that AutoCad or any clone producing the .dwg format would be a good choice for the poster. Several other people here seem to agree. The poster even said that his clients used AutoCad.
Yes I agree- until someone comes up with a better alternative. There was a couple of years ago indications that the pdf was going to be the new standard- with the Adobe 3D pdf and all that. But where has that disappeared to now?
@unknownuser said:
take a pill and chill out....but more importantly read the posts and be open to different points of view other than your own...
all opinions should be welcome....right?Okay. I'll just stay off the extra morning coffee!
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@tfdesign said:
...I could buy both say PC8 and a Mac Mini for the price of a seat of ACAD LT!
Huh...
http://www.engsw.com/catalog/
PowerCADD 8 = $995 of course you will need Wild Tools so let's say = $1,205Apple mini = $599 + Apple 24" Display = $899 + Apple keyboard = $49 and Apple mouse =$49
$1,596http://www.amazon.com/Autodesk-057B1-05A001-P101A-AutoCAD-LT-2010/dp/B001UO8M8M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1266345123&sr=8-1
AutoCAD LT 2010 = $1,080Just keeping things straight
I do agree to use whatever works. They all have pluses and minuses. More Acad users so more support (if you need it) and more jobs out there as well at times. PowerCADD makes great looking drawings, HighDesign can as well. To each there own.
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