Anti-SketchUp! Snobbery [or Ignorance?]
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Hi,
I have long worked in the planning and realization of pharmaceutical and medical facilities. In the late eighties, our company was established in Autocad. I've seen how long it lasted until the employee has mastered the system. Years later, Autocad 3D was used in the planning. But most of the construction processes are starting with 2D drawings before it can be thought of a 3D visualization. I think this also applies to architectural projects.
I can only speak from my experience in the technical field of plant construction. The process of developing a technical system starts with the product and the necessary equipment to produce it. This applies to mechanical processes, as well as for industrial processes. Planning begins with 2D drawings. And here lies the focus of the CAD and 3D programs and this is where the CAD programs have their base.
And it's just the way, if a company has opted for a software package and its planning processes has focused on will be difficult to convince them to use an other software.
I think the 3D visualization is only a small part in a planning process usually at the end of a complex planning process for a building or an industrial plant or a machine. And many planning steps are not feasible or very difficult with Sketchup.
Therefore, the provider of complete software packages, such as Autodesk, will always have the edge.SketchUp is a great and easy to learn program and it is great to construct and visualize quickly an idea and I love this program. But it only covers a very small part in a planning or construction process.
I use Sketchup as a hobbyist but when I try to visualize a real building or a machine I have to do a small planning process before that means I need at first 2D plans.
For relatively simple projects, this is certainly doable with Sketchup. For complex industrial or Building projects, it is certainly necessary to deal with other 3D or CAD programs. I guess that's why it makes no sense to compare SketchUp with other CAD or other 3D programs.But SketchUp occupied a small niche in the overall spectrum of 3D software for those who want to familiarize themselves relatively quickly in the 3D visualization.
And I do not think that Google has an interest to compete with other 3D programs. Therefore, any user of SketchUp, whether professional or amateur, should make the most of it for themselves.
Charly
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As a cabinetmaker I've gotten nothing but compliments on my SU models, but I still feel the reluctence of my builders and designers to try it. I really think the trauma of learning a CAD program is still with them and it's like "whew, I finally got through this one, I don't need to go through that again!" If only they knew! Also, I know one designer who turned her nose up at it when she viewed some of the models in the warehouse. I really wish they'd split it into two, with one side meeting minimum criteria.
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@cyberdactyl said:
Twice now in the last month I have run into new clients who, once they saw proposals by my firm were partially done in SU had less than enthusiastic responses. Not that the work was under par, no, they were pleased with the design ideas, it was more that the work was done with that "shareware software" their kids were playing with at school.
I explained SU Pro was a powerful application that was easy to learn, but difficult to master, but I still had a strong feeling SU had lost the dazzle it had even a few months ago. My only guess is that it is indeed now so popular everyone sees it as old hat.
Has anyone else had experiences similar to this recently?
P: Cyberdactyl
HI Cyberdactyl :
I'm not a "Professional" Architect, just an average citizen. I've been using Sketchup for quite a while now. And, with it, I can customize furniture, lights, etc.......... So, don't go telling me it's "just some kid's toy". The stuff I create in Sketchup, I import into Turbo Floor Plan 3D (no offense to Sketchup users). Here's a couple of examples.................... garystan
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This problem is not limited to SketchUp. I gave a talk at a combat photo conference and some guy who was a Nikon rep walked up to me and asked why I used Pentax. I said, "Pentax is cheaper and if I lay out a bunch photos on this table can you tell me which are Nikon and which are Pentax." He walked away without answering and one of the guys with him gave me a thumbs up behind his back.
SketchUp is a tool to rapidly sketch great ideas rather than fully document the construction of mega projects. But the tool seems to continue to grow on its own thanks to clever crowd sourcing.
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Man, I thought that Nikon/Pentax controversy had long since died. Any sentient being would recognize the futility. They are both great camera systems. I grew up with Pentax, and I have used Nikons. But I do not have either, now.
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..... back on subject
I've added to the title! Anti-SketchUp! Snobbery [or Ignorance?]
This display by some practitioners got worse when Google made SketchUp free. Prior to that time there was and still is a group that don't like the idea of a simple to learn and use application that can produce great results in double quick time. It gave the good but none 'techie' designers a level playing field!
In a way I sort of understand where they are coming from. I would feel a bit peeved if I had invested days, weeks, months in learning one of the more steep learning curve 3D apps to then discover that I could have achieved the same end in a fraction of the time with SketchUp not the mention the cost saving.
As regards 'clients' snubbing Google SketchUp, well, all I can say is that this is a pure case of ignorance. A great design can also be presented well with a 20 cent pencil or a cheap set of watercolors and brush on a sheet of paper. Its the hand behind the execution that is important not the tool.
SketchUp will no more make a designer and good designer than one of the expensive apps will!
Mike
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I had a pretty hard time initially from other Movie SFX people looking down their noses (behind my back) at my sticking with Sketchup.
The great thing now, is that the world (well, that small part of the world that really THINKS about things) is gradually seeing just how useful it is, and what people like you guys are helping it to evolve into!
There will ALWAYS be people like that Nikon fellow saying "urgh" at Canon's.
But at last we're seeing it used for high profile things like modelling those nifty APUs for Avatar... and working out escher-like cityscapes for that other topsy-turvy matrix'y movie I always forget the title of.... etc...
The main thing is... since so many professionals have so far snubbed it, it automatically becomes a "Blue Ocean" area that's ripe to be opened up!
These days, I'm (gradually) being let loose with Sketchup on better (and funner) projects too... which... someday... I can speak about... nnrgh!
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If a client ever snubbed SU, I wouldn't want to work with them anyway. Seriously, who cares what program you use, as long as the quality of work is nothing but the best. I see a lot of 3D Studio viz guys bashing it and complaining about getting SU models from clients, but I have never heard of client having an issue using it. I am amazed how many people are using SU these days on some incredible projects, not just architecture. I can't tell you how many pro-viz guys like Peter Gunthrie have told me they do 90% of their modeling in SU because its faster and easier. They usually go to MAX for high poly work and animation. All I can say is, "Don't knock it til you try it".
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After years of experiencing anti-sketchup snobbery I am now seeing a change. Architects offices, including my own are doing everything possible to cut costs at the moment, gone are the days of 3d studio licenses on every desktop. Our office (admittedly just a branch of a larger organisation - main office is highly resourced) is kitted out as affordably as possible. There are things we want, but we aren't pining for an expensive 3d app, and we aren't in any way debilitated relying on SU on a range of mid-spec laptops.
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I come from the computer aided engineering software world that is used to design chips. This is very expensive software that is usually leased. Every few years there is a discontinuity. Some new program comes along that makes it easier, faster or better. Some users feel threaten since they may haves years of experience with the previous tools. They have tons of scripts they have developed over the years. Switching means they lose their experience and are in the same category as new hires. They go to great lengths to explain why switching is bad. They criticize the new tool for lack of a few features. To me it looks like the same thing is happening here. If Sketchup is adopted then experienced users of other 3D modelling programs will lose their edge. Sketchup has a powerful scripting language so a lot of shortcomings can quickly be overcome.
I think the snobbery is due to Sketchup's success.
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I'm from a Solidworks background. I've dropped Solidworks for Sketchup! I suppose that's quite a statement?!
I still rate Solidworks though- but at £6000 a seat, it's hardly value for money!
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@tfdesign said:
I'm from a Solidworks background. I've dropped Solidworks for Sketchup! I suppose that's quite a statement?!
I still rate Solidworks though- but at £6000 a seat, it's hardly value for money!
As a professional in Southern italy, one of the most depressed regions of europe, I can say I have seen them all.
People have told me Sketchup doesn't have dimensions, that it is not precise, that all the geometry interacts with one another. I too have (almost) ditched Archicad for SKP, simply because what I think I can do in SU, that is not the case in other software.
But, in every case, ignorant clients who wouldn't know a mouse from a hairdryer, scoff at me when I admit I'm using Sketchup. Plus I also had the bit: you're doing it in less time I'm paying you less.
So, nowadays, I just show them the 3D studio model while I'm preparing it for render, and I never tell them I made it in Sketchup. They don't want to know, I don't tell them. Some tricks of the trade are better kept to yourself
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Very good point.
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@broomstick said:
@tfdesign said:
I'm from a Solidworks background. I've dropped Solidworks for Sketchup! I suppose that's quite a statement?!
I still rate Solidworks though- but at £6000 a seat, it's hardly value for money!
you're doing it in less time I'm paying you less.
hahah fuckin' italy. same here in bari..
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Hi folks.
Once I showed to a client an jpgimage exported from a simple but clean 3D rendering of a piping assembly I did with SketchUp. I asked me if I used Catia to do it.
I told him that I used SketchUp. First he asked me what is SketchUp. I described it to him. Then he told me why I did not used Catia. I told him that for such a simple assembly, I was able to finish it in the same time that it took Catia to open. Finally, he said to me that he was able to get my idea very well and was pleasantly surprised that a free program was able to do that much in such a short time.
Notice that I do not despise Catia. It is a very powerfull piece of software but, IMHO, it is overkill for many simple jobs and also very expensive.
The conclusion is that as long as an idea is efficiently transmitted, the goal is acheived. The software used for that is of no real importance. Personnaly, I always seek efficiency in the tools that I use. Since SketchUp is efficient and inexpensive, I use it.
Just ideas.
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@unknownuser said:
I was able to finish it in the same time that it took Catia to open
So he must have Catia allways open !
Ps A French product!
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Hi Pilou, hi folks.
No I cannot have Catia always open since that would mean monopolizing a licence. That's a thing that my colleagues would not appreciate.
BTW, I had a basic course about using Catia. I never practiced for the following reasons:
1 - Catia is overkill for most of my needs.
2 - It is slow to start.
3 - Licences are not always available.
4 - Its tree structure and it philosophy of use implies that you must already know all the details of the object you are about to model.
OK, I was spoiled by SketchUp and, anyway, I have a team of technicians that are much better than me with Catia. So, I leave them to use it while I quickly create sketches of my ideas.
Why I was spoiled by SketchUp:
1 - Its is efficient.
2 - Its is quick to start even with plugins. It took SU 5 seconds or less to start as new and now it takes about 15 seconds to start after I added a few plugins.
3 - It has a simple interface without too many tools. Well ... with too many plugins, I may end up with even more tool icons than Catia. I am not there yet.
4 - Its inference engine is quick and powerfull.
5 - It has a good palette of tools that covers about all I need. The missing ones can be obtained with plugins.
6 - Its rendering modes are more than enough for me to add the realistic touch that I need.
7 - Models are easy to modify.
8 - It perfectly fits my workflow where I start with a general idea with rough components and then add details here and there to finally obtain a complete detailed model.
9 - Its fun to use.
10 - It doen't interposed too much between my ideas and the final result.
11 - The Pro version is not to much expensive.
12 - There is a good help available.
13 - There are many ressources to find help like SketchUcation and other forums.
14 - The 3D Warehouse even if some models are not very well made.
Just ideas.
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I've also had a fair bit of abuse from the 3ds max crowd in my time. Most of those being snobby or attacking are running pirate copies, at least sketchup is affordable. The proof is in the pudding however I continue to see some great archviz work created with sketchup.
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All the folks that hated on SU in the past are now using it.
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@jackson said:
The sad thing about this attitude is that it is not based on either knowledge or experience, purely habit.
While I think this is true on the surface the underlying cause is protectionism - much in the same way as church services and prescriptions used to be in Latin and computer programming in Fortran. Sometime soon html and javascript will do everything we need to achieve using machine rather than paper-like processes. Elites will be defined by levels of creativity.
Well it's Sunday ...
Edit: ... and another Toffler quote for good measure:
"Idea-assassins rush forward to kill any new suggestion on the grounds of its impracticality, while defending whatever now exists as practical, no matter how absurd."
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