[Banned]

jeff hammond

You base your assumption on the idea that we are not natural...

uh. what?

Money is natural

this feels silly for me to even argue about.. if we're going to back-n-forth on whether or not money is natural, i highly doubt any of the worthwhile points will have a speck of a chance to be communicated.

natural |ˈnaCHərəl|
adjective
1 existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind

Krisidious

I think you answered your first question with the second... You base your assumption on the idea that humankind is not natural. Like the makers of the dictionary you quote. Mankind likes to set itself aside from nature, to coin terms like "man-made", "natural" etc. When in reality everything that is, was, it may be reorganized for a short time, but everything is made of the same elements... Everything that exists in the universe is natural. We are natural... Do you think that someone made up 2+2=4 or did they just figure out a natrual truth of the universe? Do you think the spoon was invented or was it just discovered? Do you think the wheel was invented by one man's brilliance or was it a natural progression of evolution? Would the spoon and the wheel not also be discovered on any planet where intelligent life came to be? Would 2+2=4 there as well? Would money not also exist?

jeff hammond

that's fine and all.. and I don't have any particular disagreements with that.

but based on what you just posted, how does that relate to the original statement I questioned.

you said it's unnatural to not buy something. but now you're saying anything that's ever happened is natural.. so what did you mean by unnatural?
do you see my confusion. i don't think you're making much sense. or-- not maintaining a consistent viewpoint.

Krisidious

I'm simply commenting on your point that money is unnatural, so we should not begrudge those that don't have enough and feel they must steal. Is that not the point you were making?

I'm stating that the natural order of things is to trade in kind, be it money, goods or services.

jeff hammond

@krisidious said:

I'm simply commenting on your point that money is unnatural, so we should not begrudge those that don't have enough and feel they must steal. Is that not the point you were making?

no.. wasn't trying to say that at all!
sorry for the confusion.

(like- i quit talking about the software piracy stuff when i said smthng like 'and that's all i have to say about that' (forrest gump voice)

Krisidious

@jeff hammond said:

(like- i quit talking about the software piracy stuff when i said smthng like 'and that's all i have to say about that' (forrest gump voice)

jason_maranto

Jeff, I am not inclined to get into a lengthy debate over morality or world politics -- however I do feel compelled to point out that clearly there are viable (and even excellent) alternatives to piracy:

SketchUp Free
Other free modeling softwares (too many to list)
Open source softwares (Blender comes to mind first)

Instead of arguing about the inherent unfairness of the software pricing system, I would simply point out that legal alternatives are abundant -- so clearly to use a pirated version is a willful act of theft.

Your framing of theft as justified by socio-political and economic factors seems to completely ignore that fact that it does not need to occur at all, and in fact is nothing more than being too lazy to look for a legal alternative among the huge list of available options. The tragedy there is by supporting open source softwares the pirates could actually help level the economic playing field and thereby make the world a better place.

Best,
Jason.

roland joseph

I have some first-nation friends that might have a good definition of nature. They mostly hate money for the trouble it gets them in.

olishea

money doesn't make you happy but it certainly doesn't make you sad

jeff hammond

@jason_maranto said:

Your framing of theft as justified by socio-political and economic factors seems to

those are just a couple of factors.. the larger factor at play here is that we're talking about entirely different cultures but many are speaking in a way of "I think like this therefore everybody in the world should think like this".. it's shortsighted and basically leads to war.. (which, ironically enough, is the much larger crime or act of inhumanity)..

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2012/07/22/in-china-why-piracy-is-here-to-stay/

@unknownuser said:

“China is the total flip-side of the U.S. Piracy goes back to the China world view that individual rights don’t matter. The courts have never evolved to protect innovative individuals. There is still very much the ethos that economic growth has to be managed, so individual and intellectual property, where the spoils go to one entity or one person, is not a cultural value,”

you're saying it's illegal and immoral etc and in our culture, it is.. but to someone in some other culture, it is very possible that it's not seen that way.. for one, it's not illegal or it's a very grey area as to legality.. further, someone in india doesn't go through the same thought process as someone in france.. the french pirate will likely be dealing internally with a moral choice "it is wrong to do this but should i do it anyway?".. where as that notion isn't even entering the equation for someone in a different culture..

if we're going to do things on a global scale, we have to consider every individual or culture existing on said globe.. if we don't then it leads to wars which are fought for the lamest of reasons (we don't think/look/act alike)..

now, i don't have much of a problem with injecting or influencing pure thoughts into other cultures.. however, i am far from believing the u.s possesses such purity.. our country is a bunch of b.s and crimes against humanity happen on a daily basis at very large scales.. we aren't good.. we aren't the good guys.. so it's stupid for us to invade other countries and try to instill our crap morals in place of their crap morals.

when i see in our own country that things like racism,sexism, classism etc are no longer existing -- then let's talk about spreading our values to other lands.. until that time, take a step back and see that our way isn't the right way.

add-
and yes, we ourselves should question what the causes of our wrong ways are.. it's possible money is poison.. it's possible the hoarding of knowledge/technology andor ownership of said things is poison.. these are ideas we must question ourselves in order to better society.. just because things are they way they are and the way they've been since you were born doesn't mean it's the right way.. it's just what you're used to-- that's all.. it's incredibly likely that there are much better ways.

jason_maranto

And you just sidestepped the point... what you are saying has absolutely no relevance to the point that it does not need to happen at all in the first place.

But to humor you, what if for instance Trimble decided to institute a region blocking scheme for countries where the culture was deemed "too different" to be a viable for a business venture (your examples of China and India). That is not discrimination, that is simply an practical evaluation of potential profitability and prudent protection of their assets. However, I would be willing to bet that some users within those regions are willing to pay -- why should they be penalized for the poor behaviour of others?

Again I come back to the reality that theft does not need to happen in this age of open source software -- nearly anything you need can be had for free, and if enough people use it they will become the new industry standards.

Best,
Jason.

jeff hammond

@jason_maranto said:

And you just sidestepped the point... what you are saying has absolutely no relevance to the point that it does not need to happen at all in the first place.

actually, no i haven't sidestepped it and it's what i've been saying all along.. i get it that my thoughts may be on the abstract side of things but really, i don't think you're looking at it from all angles.. it seems you're mostly focused on results you can see yet you're completely avoiding the causes or root nature which makes the results possible in the first place.. change the root actions and the results you're trying to prevent disappear automatically.. you're focusing on the wrong stuff.. trying to put bandaids all over the place instead of fixing the core causes.

@unknownuser said:

But to humor you, what if for instance Trimble decided to institute a region blocking scheme for countries where the culture was deemed "too different" to be a viable for a business venture (your examples of China and India). That is not discrimination, that is simply an practical evaluation of potential profitability and prudent protection of their assets. However, I would be willing to bet that some users within those regions are willing to pay -- why should they be penalized for the poor behaviour of others?

why are you trimble's piracy cop? how do you know software companies aren't a bit further evolved in their views of piracy than you? how do you know ms windows cracks aren't being made my microsoft themselves? why is osx free? why does their iWork suite cost only $9?
etcetc..

@unknownuser said:

Again I come back to the reality that theft does not need to happen in this age of open source software

and again, i come back to it's only theft in your eyes.. a pirate in thailand is only a criminal in your eyes.

go back a hundred or so years in your own country.. you have americans owning slaves and/or killing black people with no penalty.. are they criminals?

roland joseph

@unknownuser said:

China is the total flip-side of the U.S. Piracy goes back to the China world view that individual rights don’t matter. The courts have never evolved to protect innovative individuals. There is still very much the ethos that economic growth has to be managed, so individual and intellectual property, where the spoils go to one entity or one person, is not a cultural value,”

Makes sense then that they will peacefully take over the world as is becoming evident.

jason_maranto

Gotcha, so basically you are saying that all the information about licensing procedure that Trimble puts out (including the Eula) is somehow unintelligible because of cultural differences. I disagree, and I think I am giving more credit to those people in these situations than you are.

I am nobody's cop -- I didn't ban anybody. I am just pointing out the extremely obvious truth that this type of piracy is at the very least unnecessary, and in most cases just the result of laziness and complacency. For the record my stuff has been and is being pirated all around the world constantly. I know personally what this is like (do you?), and have never done anything to try to stop it... or even speak out about it.

I have had users in countries where it is not legal (due to sanctions) to purchase my stuff email me directly and apologize that they were not able to pay because of world politics. I have always been understanding and helpful, telling them their obligation to me is paid if they also freely share what they have learned from me with their countrymen. That is my reality -- to you this may be abstract, but I see this in person. So please don't act like you have some special insight into the high view here.

Best,
Jason.

jeff hammond

@jason_maranto said:

I know personally what this is like (do you?)

not really.. i make instructional videos all the time but i share them freely.. if i know how to do something that someone else wants to know how to do, i'll show them what i know..

i've had a design of mine patented by another company before.. to the point of it now being illegal for me to build the thing i designed and built in the first place.. probably not the smartest way for me to deal with it in moneymakingmanhattan culture as i probably missed out on a bunch of cash but i just moved on from it and continued to evolve my designs.. it was the more fulfilling choice for me personally.

@unknownuser said:

That is my reality -- to you this may be abstract, but I see this in person. So please don't act like you have some special insight into the high view here.

ok. my bad.

roland joseph

@unknownuser said:

truth that this type of piracy is at the very least unnecessary, and in most cases just the result of laziness and complacency.

I get cheated and lied to every day by Corporate America/Canada and yet I still treat them fairly and pay for all my tools ( not wanting to offend those companies like Trimble that add great value).

But I have a very high tolerance for BS because I grew up with "free enterprise" so I turn a blind eye to it, lets face it, willful Corporate murder would top the list of things that bug me about free enterprise.

You can't expect all people to have respect for Corporate fee schedules in view of the behavior of many legitimate corporations.

jason_maranto

The old "I am not as bad as they are, therefore my bad behavior is excusable" arguement... my issue with that is very practical:

To pirate requires you to go out of your way, to potentially dangerous areas (Virus-wise), to obtain the software. Whereas downloading, installing and using an open source software is safe, easy and always encouraged.

If you take the approach that piracy is giving the finger to corporate america, then I would suggest that using the open source software, and contributing to the growth of the marketshare of those (versus the corporate softwares), would be far more effective.

There is no downside to using open source instead, other than having to momentarily step outside the familiar routine... but that is a wise investment of time, which will serve towards giving long term freedom from corporate powers.

Best,
Jason.

jeff hammond

@jason_maranto said:

The old "I am not as bad as they are, therefore my bad behavior is excusable" arguement... my issue with that is very practical:

To pirate requires you to go out of your way, to potentially dangerous areas (Virus-wise), to obtain the software. Whereas downloading, installing and using an open source software is safe, easy and always encouraged.

If you take the approach that piracy is giving the finger to corporate america, then I would suggest that using the open source software, and contributing to the growth of the marketshare of those (versus the corporate softwares), would be far more effective.

There is no downside to using open source instead, other than having to momentarily step outside the familiar routine... but that is a wise investment of time, which will serve towards giving long term freedom from corporate powers.

Best,
Jason.

it just sounds like you're talking to people who live within a hundred miles of you.
or, like you're trying to teach me the difference between right and wrong when in reality, i don't live on a deserted island, i do use money, i'm in the same culture as you, my software and usage of said software is all legal under u.s. laws... i'm playing by the book, you see?

if i were taking the approach "that piracy is giving the finger to corporate america".. well, i'd almost certainly be stealing their software, wouldn't i?.. instead, my idea of giving them the finger is through spreading knowledge or ideas that we don't have to live under their rules.. all we need to do as a whole is say stop and it will stop in one day..

but jason, the world is much bigger than florida.. in many cases, the pirated software IS being payed for by the user.. there's a huge reseller market in which people are selling software at highly discounted prices.. or selling computers which has software preinstalled which under u.s. law, shouldn't be there.. it's very similar to movie piracy..
buy the DVD on the street corner for a dollar, you know.. it's not always about going to some shady place on the internet and downloading a movie.. you buy the movie from the chick in the subway and you have acted as a responsible consumer.. maybe not responsible in our consumer culture but certainly responsible in another.. there's some old lady in pakistan right now watching the hobbit who, in her or her neighbor's eyes, has done absolutely nothing wrong.. but here you are, thousands of miles away, chastising her and calling her a thief..

now, i'm not asking you to change your way of thinking or- my point is certainly not "piracy is ok".. what i am asking you to do is open your eyes beyond your borders.. you keep offering all of these solutions but the way i see it is that you're failing to see the problem as a whole.. you're thinking too close to home.. consider the whole world first then offer solutions because i think if you start from scratch with wider eyes, your ideas for solutions won't be very similar to your current ones.

Box

Edited because sadly my point that it was time to move on was mostly lost.

Edited again because some sad twats have to hit the thumbs down without even understanding what they are talking about. Perfect example for this thread.

jason_maranto

You keep wanting to make this about social ills... but I don't think you are getting the simplicity of the issue. The issue here is piracy of SketchUp... or in a more general sense software piracy. You act as if I am not aware of the larger world and what goes on out there... but that assumption is based on the fact that you:

a) know next to nothing about me.
b) are attempting to argue something that is not relevant to the thread.

For instance you keep talking about the evils of white america, as if I have no understanding of this. What you don't know is my great grandfather was forcefully taken from his family on the reservation, and raised in an orphanage as "white"... this was part of an effort to erradicate the tribe. There are are other similar issues, but that is my personal business... so I won't elaborate further.

Similarly, what I am adressing is the need to pirate... not the morality of doing so. You are attempting to pull me into some sort of stance on the morality of such, but I have only commented on the hard practical realities of the situation. It is not needful for anybody to pirate software in todays world... open source software has become so prevelant that almost anything you need is there for you.

You attempt to use "cultural ignorance" as some sort of catch-all protection from personal responsibility, but I would suggest anybody capable of finding this place is already well informed enough to know the expectations involved.

Furthermore, the original poster is creating video game assets... I wonder what his stance will be when the time comes for his product to be pirated.

Best,
Jason.