[Banned]
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I support that SCF moderators do a good job treading the line and also have a right to do as they see fit here.
Personally I felt it was a little troll-like. Whether that had anything to do with the ban or not. OP kept pushing on the same opinion, without much of a discussion of fact, to get more people to disagree, then began insulting them. It reminded me of a thread years ago, which got out of hand as more people gathered to heap ridicule on an obnoxious kid.
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Jeff, I understand the sympathy you feel for the 3rd worlders who don't have the capital to purchase certain software. I share it. But the real world doesn't work that way. Humans do what you give them incentive to do, not what's right or wrong. If you make sketchup pro cheap for certain nations then you will find other nation's citizens using proxies to purchase through that nation's ip ranges. Whatsmore, most of these 3rd worlds are not competing with each other only in their nation. They compete on the open international market. One job should be able to pay for their software. 90% of them are using the system to make renderings, I've pointed out time and time again how motivated they are to learn and better themselves while we sit on our collective fat asses doing less and less. And I commend them for it. I might even understand if they are willing to steal to do it. But they damn well shouldn't brag about it.
However, that does not negate that theft is indeed theft, while it might not be murder or a large theft, I think there is a least common denominator that must be dealt with and as you said, companies don't have the time or resources to find and litigate these breaches. So we should just let it go? Ignore that we play by the rules and they don't and then we should use our time to help them, explain things to them and assist them in their theft?
I'm not into the whole free everything kick that a lot of the world seems to be into, I don't buy into it, it's unnatural. Just because you want something doesn't mean you deserve to have it for free. I also don't buy into because a company makes a profit it's ok for me to steal from them. I feel that the only way to protect all of our intellectual property is to protect each other's intellectual property. And that includes Sketchup a company that has brought me into the 3D world, given me a great avenue to sell my designs and done so on a very affordable level.
Now on to another thing... Someone here reported one of my posts in this thread, not sure which one, as slanderous to them or someone else perhaps. I think if you re-read my posts you'll see I make no statements about anyone, I only ask questions about clarification of statements. If you feel I slandered you or someone else I apologize, that was not my intent. But, if slander is saying that someone who steals software is a thief. Well, I'm unapologetically guilty of that.
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i've pretty much said what i have to say on most of the topic but this part is a bit different:
@krisidious said:
I'm not into the whole free everything kick that a lot of the world seems to be into, I don't buy into it, it's unnatural.
money is not natural.. show me one instance of money occurring naturally in the known universe and i'll ..(well, i'll do nothing
i just want to see what you mean buy "it's unnatural to not buy things") -
In my village the barter system returned after the economic crash.
It was actually quite refreshing to see people trading favours, goods and skills in return for similar.
Money isn't power. Money is just powerful. Goodwill is the most natural currency we have.
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@jeff hammond said:
i've pretty much said what i have to say on most of the topic but this part is a bit different:
@krisidious said:
I'm not into the whole free everything kick that a lot of the world seems to be into, I don't buy into it, it's unnatural.
money is not natural.. show me one instance of money occurring naturally in the known universe and i'll ..(well, i'll do nothing
i just want to see what you mean buy "it's unnatural to not buy things")Conservation of energy is natural. Human nature is a force to deal with as well. We are to varying extents lazy, cheating, liars. So is it somewhere in between? I think a trade system of some sort helps all communities. I would hope we can have a system that allows commerce to develop in poorer areas on a fair basis. Access to capital and affordability--not dependence on handouts or subterfuge. Let's Kris and Jeff duke it out.
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You base your assumption on the idea that we are not natural... Money is natural... It has existed since the dawn of civilization. Naturally, people do not give without receiving, be it money, goods, services or even good feelings. Money is a extension of the barter system of trade itself. Society will never exist with out money. Capitalism is the economic version of natural order ie survival of the fittest. Money is the physical manifestation of labor. It represents value because it must be earned, it has value because a group of people agree to the value of it. Burn all the money in the world and you'll be trading furs, labor, food or services. they are all forms of money. Money is just a convenient form in which to trade.
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@krisidious said:
You base your assumption on the idea that we are not natural...
uh. what?
@unknownuser said:
Money is natural
this feels silly for me to even argue about.. if we're going to back-n-forth on whether or not money is natural, i highly doubt any of the worthwhile points will have a speck of a chance to be communicated.
natural |ˈnaCHərəl|
adjective
1 existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind -
I think you answered your first question with the second... You base your assumption on the idea that humankind is not natural. Like the makers of the dictionary you quote. Mankind likes to set itself aside from nature, to coin terms like "man-made", "natural" etc. When in reality everything that is, was, it may be reorganized for a short time, but everything is made of the same elements... Everything that exists in the universe is natural. We are natural... Do you think that someone made up 2+2=4 or did they just figure out a natrual truth of the universe? Do you think the spoon was invented or was it just discovered? Do you think the wheel was invented by one man's brilliance or was it a natural progression of evolution? Would the spoon and the wheel not also be discovered on any planet where intelligent life came to be? Would 2+2=4 there as well? Would money not also exist?
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that's fine and all.. and I don't have any particular disagreements with that.
but based on what you just posted, how does that relate to the original statement I questioned.
you said it's unnatural to not buy something. but now you're saying anything that's ever happened is natural.. so what did you mean by unnatural?
do you see my confusion. i don't think you're making much sense. or-- not maintaining a consistent viewpoint. -
I'm simply commenting on your point that money is unnatural, so we should not begrudge those that don't have enough and feel they must steal. Is that not the point you were making?
I'm stating that the natural order of things is to trade in kind, be it money, goods or services.
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@krisidious said:
I'm simply commenting on your point that money is unnatural, so we should not begrudge those that don't have enough and feel they must steal. Is that not the point you were making?
no.. wasn't trying to say that at all!
sorry for the confusion.(like- i quit talking about the software piracy stuff when i said smthng like 'and that's all i have to say about that' (forrest gump voice)
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@jeff hammond said:
(like- i quit talking about the software piracy stuff when i said smthng like 'and that's all i have to say about that' (forrest gump voice)
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Jeff, I am not inclined to get into a lengthy debate over morality or world politics -- however I do feel compelled to point out that clearly there are viable (and even excellent) alternatives to piracy:
- SketchUp Free
- Other free modeling softwares (too many to list)
- Open source softwares (Blender comes to mind first)
Instead of arguing about the inherent unfairness of the software pricing system, I would simply point out that legal alternatives are abundant -- so clearly to use a pirated version is a willful act of theft.
Your framing of theft as justified by socio-political and economic factors seems to completely ignore that fact that it does not need to occur at all, and in fact is nothing more than being too lazy to look for a legal alternative among the huge list of available options. The tragedy there is by supporting open source softwares the pirates could actually help level the economic playing field and thereby make the world a better place.
Best,
Jason. -
I have some first-nation friends that might have a good definition of nature. They mostly hate money for the trouble it gets them in.
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money doesn't make you happy but it certainly doesn't make you sad
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@jason_maranto said:
Your framing of theft as justified by socio-political and economic factors seems to
those are just a couple of factors.. the larger factor at play here is that we're talking about entirely different cultures but many are speaking in a way of "I think like this therefore everybody in the world should think like this".. it's shortsighted and basically leads to war.. (which, ironically enough, is the much larger crime or act of inhumanity)..
@unknownuser said:
“China is the total flip-side of the U.S. Piracy goes back to the China world view that individual rights don’t matter. The courts have never evolved to protect innovative individuals. There is still very much the ethos that economic growth has to be managed, so individual and intellectual property, where the spoils go to one entity or one person, is not a cultural value,”
you're saying it's illegal and immoral etc and in our culture, it is.. but to someone in some other culture, it is very possible that it's not seen that way.. for one, it's not illegal or it's a very grey area as to legality.. further, someone in india doesn't go through the same thought process as someone in france.. the french pirate will likely be dealing internally with a moral choice "it is wrong to do this but should i do it anyway?".. where as that notion isn't even entering the equation for someone in a different culture..
if we're going to do things on a global scale, we have to consider every individual or culture existing on said globe.. if we don't then it leads to wars which are fought for the lamest of reasons (we don't think/look/act alike)..
now, i don't have much of a problem with injecting or influencing pure thoughts into other cultures.. however, i am far from believing the u.s possesses such purity.. our country is a bunch of b.s and crimes against humanity happen on a daily basis at very large scales.. we aren't good.. we aren't the good guys.. so it's stupid for us to invade other countries and try to instill our crap morals in place of their crap morals.
when i see in our own country that things like racism,sexism, classism etc are no longer existing -- then let's talk about spreading our values to other lands.. until that time, take a step back and see that our way isn't the right way.
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and yes, we ourselves should question what the causes of our wrong ways are.. it's possible money is poison.. it's possible the hoarding of knowledge/technology andor ownership of said things is poison.. these are ideas we must question ourselves in order to better society.. just because things are they way they are and the way they've been since you were born doesn't mean it's the right way.. it's just what you're used to-- that's all.. it's incredibly likely that there are much better ways. -
And you just sidestepped the point... what you are saying has absolutely no relevance to the point that it does not need to happen at all in the first place.
But to humor you, what if for instance Trimble decided to institute a region blocking scheme for countries where the culture was deemed "too different" to be a viable for a business venture (your examples of China and India). That is not discrimination, that is simply an practical evaluation of potential profitability and prudent protection of their assets. However, I would be willing to bet that some users within those regions are willing to pay -- why should they be penalized for the poor behaviour of others?
Again I come back to the reality that theft does not need to happen in this age of open source software -- nearly anything you need can be had for free, and if enough people use it they will become the new industry standards.
Best,
Jason. -
@jason_maranto said:
And you just sidestepped the point... what you are saying has absolutely no relevance to the point that it does not need to happen at all in the first place.
actually, no i haven't sidestepped it and it's what i've been saying all along.. i get it that my thoughts may be on the abstract side of things but really, i don't think you're looking at it from all angles.. it seems you're mostly focused on results you can see yet you're completely avoiding the causes or root nature which makes the results possible in the first place.. change the root actions and the results you're trying to prevent disappear automatically.. you're focusing on the wrong stuff.. trying to put bandaids all over the place instead of fixing the core causes.
@unknownuser said:
But to humor you, what if for instance Trimble decided to institute a region blocking scheme for countries where the culture was deemed "too different" to be a viable for a business venture (your examples of China and India). That is not discrimination, that is simply an practical evaluation of potential profitability and prudent protection of their assets. However, I would be willing to bet that some users within those regions are willing to pay -- why should they be penalized for the poor behaviour of others?
why are you trimble's piracy cop? how do you know software companies aren't a bit further evolved in their views of piracy than you? how do you know ms windows cracks aren't being made my microsoft themselves? why is osx free? why does their iWork suite cost only $9?
etcetc..@unknownuser said:
Again I come back to the reality that theft does not need to happen in this age of open source software
and again, i come back to it's only theft in your eyes.. a pirate in thailand is only a criminal in your eyes.
go back a hundred or so years in your own country.. you have americans owning slaves and/or killing black people with no penalty.. are they criminals?
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@unknownuser said:
China is the total flip-side of the U.S. Piracy goes back to the China world view that individual rights don’t matter. The courts have never evolved to protect innovative individuals. There is still very much the ethos that economic growth has to be managed, so individual and intellectual property, where the spoils go to one entity or one person, is not a cultural value,”
Makes sense then that they will peacefully take over the world as is becoming evident.
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Gotcha, so basically you are saying that all the information about licensing procedure that Trimble puts out (including the Eula) is somehow unintelligible because of cultural differences. I disagree, and I think I am giving more credit to those people in these situations than you are.
I am nobody's cop -- I didn't ban anybody. I am just pointing out the extremely obvious truth that this type of piracy is at the very least unnecessary, and in most cases just the result of laziness and complacency. For the record my stuff has been and is being pirated all around the world constantly. I know personally what this is like (do you?), and have never done anything to try to stop it... or even speak out about it.
I have had users in countries where it is not legal (due to sanctions) to purchase my stuff email me directly and apologize that they were not able to pay because of world politics. I have always been understanding and helpful, telling them their obligation to me is paid if they also freely share what they have learned from me with their countrymen. That is my reality -- to you this may be abstract, but I see this in person. So please don't act like you have some special insight into the high view here.
Best,
Jason.
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