SketchUp 2013 Gripes & Bitchin' ONLY ;)
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I understand
Thanks Jasonbest
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I have a couple of ideas to what can be improved in the API. I've collected them in this Google Docs document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hwEivitbEwU-Lbnkia9K0HOEKlXkYrV3uVPcqeZZofw/edit?usp=sharing
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@unknownuser said:
i'm left with one single voice and that is via my bank account. i hate that i have to play that card but i feel as if i've been pushed into a corner with no other choice.
(well, no other choice with this application in particular)Unfortunately, maybe because I've always trusted my relations with SketchUp, I downloaded and paid for the upgrade before I saw what it was. I draw for a living and $95 doesn't make or break my day but I do think the symbolic aspect of this is important. I might not have upgraded had I understood the whole picture.
Some of the fanboys on the other thread who think anyone who complains is a whining toddler seem not to understand that, as a professional, you have an obligation to voice complaints if you think your business relations have taken a turn against your interests. No improvements in annotations, zooming to details, curves, or anything else I can think of as basic to one's use of SketchUp would seem to justify questioning the legitimacy of calling this an 'upgrade'.
The significant improvements that one expects in an upgrade that fundamentally alter your workflow for the better are not apparent here and I worry that it takes the pressure off other developers to attempt to hit it out of the park with future releases. SketchUp isn't a toy, it's not a private party for the fanboys - it's the program of choice for thousands of individuals and companies around the world. If an upgrade with literally no improvement to workflow is acceptable here it will likely be the standard bearer for other software companies going forward.
The justifications for this are not convincing. Most of them have to do with issues of speed and stability. But when a company buys an asset they are also buying, and responsible for, it's liabilities. The obligation to make the program as crash proof as possible was transferred from Google to Trimble when Trimble purchased SketchUp. To charge for reducing the likelihood of crashes is like a roofer charging you to fix leaks after he's charged you for the cost of a new roof.
Fortunately, there are options now that we didn't have in the past. The SketchUp influence has become widespread over the last few years. The ease of modeling in Rhino V5 would be a good example. The monopoly that AutoCAD LT has in the 2D market is no longer matched by the monopoly in 3D speed modeling that SketchUp once held. I actually hope some of these other companies pick up a few more subscribers because of this fiasco. Competition is good.
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@thomthom said:
I have a couple of ideas to what can be improved in the API. I've collected them in this Google Docs document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hwEivitbEwU-Lbnkia9K0HOEKlXkYrV3uVPcqeZZofw/edit?usp=sharing
I have read it , not to say that I have understood the language of programing .
But it seems to me that there are quite a lot of features that Masters of Ruby , could improve if the Ruby application programming interface (API), was updated .
So to make it clear to me , we do not have those possibilities because the software development team , Trimble , do not want us to have it , for whatever reasons .Thanks for telling thomthom
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@juanv.soler said:
So to make it clear to me , we do not have those possibilities because the software development team , Trimble , do not want us to have it , for whatever reasons .
It's not so much as want - it's more a case of priority of resources I expect. I doubt there are any conspiracies against us.
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@thomthom said:
It's not so much as want - it's more a case of priority of resources I expect. I doubt there are any conspiracies against us.
You are really not getting into the spirit of this thread -- you've gotta go for the throat! For instance I could take your comments and return them like this:
First off, it's not a question of "want"... it's very likely a question of can't -- as in gross incompetence in leadership ("darling") is the most likely answer.
Secondly, resource management must be extremely poor to deliver this "update" (such as it is) after nearly 3 years of development. I guess you could argue they've only had 9 months with Trimble -- but exactly what were they doing the previous 2 years between when SketchUp 8 came out and Google sold SketchUp? It just doesn't add up...
Finally, Since you can't say for certain, how do you know there are no conspiracies against us? I sense a conspiracy to have us finance the buyout of SketchUp for very little in return from Trimble... so far that particular conspiracy theory seems to be holding up to the evidence.
Best,
Jason. -
@arail1 said:
Unfortunately, maybe because I've always trusted my relations with SketchUp, I downloaded and paid for the upgrade before I saw what it was. I draw for a living and $95 doesn't make or break my day but I do think the symbolic aspect of this is important. I might not have upgraded had I understood the whole picture.
I agree with your entire post -- and I would say that it is unfortunate. However, you are not alone. And for that reason I immediately warned several friends to not upgrade as soon as I saw what SketchUp 9 contained (or didn't, as there wasn't really much there but a price tag and a new name).
I've been a bit more theatrical in my approach to protesting this "update", mostly because it is so hard to break through the "Oh, well that's just the way it is... no use in complaining." apathetic mindset that SketchUp seems to have successfully cultivated amongst a large portion of the user base.
You can call them fanboys, but I actually think of them more as battered wives -- as in battered wife syndrome. The violence in this case being the perpetration of "darling" style SketchUp development upon the users. With the end result of it somehow being our responsibility to make SketchUp better for them... and even pay extra for that "privilege". As in: "It's not "darlings" fault SketchUp 9 sucks -- I'm just demanding too much" -- or some such whiny drivel.
Best,
Jason. -
@arail1 said:
To charge for reducing the likelihood of crashes is like a roofer charging you to fix leaks after he's charged you for the cost of a new roof.
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I have to admit that I - like many others - are very dissatisfied about the way Trimble have handled this release...
I don't understand why new features a lacking (except a few in LayOut) and I certainly don't understand the completely redesigned license program...
It seem as if no-one have been listening to any of the many wishes being listed...
As a user since ver. 5, I personally feel that they don't care too much about existing customer base...
From a business perspective this is a huge mistake...!
As a mandatory rule of thumbs, companies need to listen to the customers - in particular the old users/customers, cause without customers they will soon be out of business...I'm certain Trimbel and SU is far from being ruled out of business, but as competition get stronger, they do need to listen to some of the requests and demands from the customer base, especially if they want the customer base to grow...
@jason_maranto said:
I've been a bit more theatrical in my approach to protesting this "update", mostly because it is so hard to break through the "Oh, well that's just the way it is... no use in complaining." apathetic mindset that SketchUp seems to have successfully cultivated amongst a large portion of the user base.
Just remember, overdosing on negativity isn't particularly helpful...
Having spend many years with you in this community, it's as if you're a completely different person, compared to the one I used to know...
Usually you're far smarter than this...@jason_maranto said:
You can call them fanboys, but I actually think of them more as battered wives -- as in battered wife syndrome. The violence in this case being the perpetration of "darling" style SketchUp development upon the users. With the end result of it somehow being our responsibility to make SketchUp better for them... and even pay extra for that "privilege". As in: "It's not "darlings" fault SketchUp 9 sucks -- I'm just demanding too much" -- or some such whiny drivel.
Although I'm not convinced of the advisability of actually charging for this release, I'm one of the "fanboys"...
I've ordered the upgrade, but that's simply because I use LayOut on a daily basis together with SU and since there are some great new features in LO, I decided to go for the upgrade...
However, I can assure you that I will soon start a list with wishes for new features as well as a list of all the bugs that still haven't been ironed...It's my understanding that Trimble are leaders in the area of construction thus let's see where this leads...
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@frederik said:
Just remember, overdosing on negativity isn't particularly helpful...
Having spend many years with you in this community, it's as if you're a completely different person, compared to the one I used to know...
Usually you're far smarter than this...Being negative is not usually my thing. I much prefer being helpful and building up, rather than tearing down. However, I've already tried making my voice heard via friendly participation in the last rounds of voting and wish-listing, as well as discussions here and elsewhere. Now I've tried being a (hopefully somewhat entertaining) pain in the butt... with the pure intention of getting attention for my issues with how things are being run.
But no matter the approach, I've always tried to participate in good faith. As other people have intimated, if I wasn't here at all then you would know how I really feel. There is some small hope left in me for SketchUp... but I'm certainly going to have to be convinced that things are different before coming back into the fold.
This gripefest only has a limited time window of opportunity -- after all they should be setting up for SketchUp 10 in twelve months... and I'd like to be able to recommend the next update.
Whatever the outcome, I can at least say I gave my best effort towards making my concerns heard, and I tried everything I could think of.
As a side note -- there was another software package I used (and taught) for a very long time, that was going down the tubes for several consecutive versions -- and I thought for sure it was done for good. But they brought on all new blood in the development dept, and started paying more attention to the user feedback, and today I am happy to say it is a totally worthwhile software once more. The same could happen with SketchUp...
Best,
Jason. -
Introducing SketchUp 2013
Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:35 AM
http://sketchupdate.blogspot.com/With regard to the above, by John Bacus, I was a little perplexed on reading some of what has been stated, particularly in relation to Trimble SketchUp's 'take' on plugins (pun intended
)I'll try to explain my reasoning.
Quote:JB
.*........ we focused on two things: building an ecosystem that makes it easier for millions of SketchUp modelers to find and use the plugins and extensions they need, .........Extension Warehouse: A smarter approach to SketchUp plugins
Over the years, our beloved plugin developers—the folks who use our Ruby scripting tools to build add-ons for SketchUp—have created some truly amazing features. Historically, these extensions have been crazy useful, laughably affordable, and (for the most part) incredibly difficult to find. No more.
For 2013, we built a repository of extensions—an Extension Warehouse, in our parlance—that provides a one-stop shop for anyone looking to customize their copy of SketchUp. This one new feature is actually dozens (eventually hundreds) of new features, all ready and waiting for you to discover. Using the Extension Warehouse to find, install and update plugins is a simple operation. And best of all, it all happens right inside SketchUp.
When you visit the Extension Warehouse, you’ll notice it’s every bit a modern app store: most-popular lists, user reviews, download statistics, introductory videos and more. Clicking a plugin’s “Install” button takes care of just about everything that used to make Ruby scripts so cumbersome to use. No more digging around for your plugins directory. No more unpacking files and folders into precise locations in your file system. No more wondering why this can’t all be easier. Because now it is.
LayOut in SketchUp Pro 2013: More tools for turning your models into drawings.*
End Quote.Regardless of whether or not I regard SU Make and Pro 2013 a significant step forward, I do find this announcement of achievements not accurate or at the very least misguided from a business perspective.
I thing that there may have been an 'aim' rather than 'focus' in relation to making life easier for SU users when it came to locating and loading 3rd party plugins, particularly the utility type plugins that have been incubated and hosted here on SketchUcation.
I find this particular comment very unsavory from SketchUcation's point of view! ..... 'Historically, these extensions have been crazy useful, laughably affordable, and (for the most part) incredibly difficult to find. No more'.
The plugins hosted on SketchUcation have never 'been difficult to find' once the seeker knew where to look! All that was required by Google and over the past year, Trimble SketchUp, to make life easier for SU Users in this regard was to predominantly link to SketchUcation. Efforts in this regard were sadly virtually non existent, As to why this was not done, when we now see descriptions like, 'our beloved plugin developers', being used, I fail to understand. If these developers where 'beloved', why were they not promoted over the past year and the previous 6 years?
As far as this being the situation 'no more', I don't see this in the launched SU 2013 applications! There obviously has been resistance from many of the prime ruby developers that regard SketchUcation as the 'home' of SketchUp Ruby development. The number of plugins showing on the Extension Warehouse, to me, would be an embarrassment at a little over 100 plugins when there is far in access of 600+ such plugins on the SketchUcation Plugin Store!, which, I would add is not being allowed into the Extension Warehouse!
Sensibly allowing the SketchUcation Plugin Store into the Extension Warehouse would at least immediately bring an additional 500 or so plugins the the 'millions' of SU users that TSU now wish to make life easier for when it comes to plugins!
More proper business planning and co-operation with 3rd parties should have been exercised prior to launch of Make and SU Pro 2013 because there now appears to be situation whereby SketchUp v8 could well be regarded, with SketchUcation's Plugin Store, to be quite satisfactory for requirements ...... and this is not the ideal situation for anyone wishing to see SketchUp progress to what it should be, hopefully at some future date.
Mike
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@mike said:
situation whereby SketchUp v8 could well be regarded, with SketcHucation's Plugin Shop, to be quite satisfactory for requirements
And as for my recent experiences, SU8 has less Ruby bugs and the exactly same Ruby API features. Thus the superior platform for running plugins (if we leave the huge performance optimizations aside).
@unknownuser said:
This one new feature is actually dozens (eventually hundreds) of new features
What impresses me is this fatal dependency. They depend on us and we depend on them: We are strong in working with the API, we are able to create almost thousand plugins, but are unable to push the core of the platform forward or fork it.
We simply lack experience in the core technologies, native code, graphics pipeline and OpenGL stuff.
Calling SketchUp a platform is tough, it neither supports more than two OS (don't mention mobile) nor a near bug-free API. As an open core platform and written from scratch with modern technologies, SketchUp could give its users freedoms that other opensource software has: hardware and OS support spanning from ARM to x86 64bit, with a transparent roadmap and progress that we can influence. But it would require more expertise, a common goal and leadership that simply is hard to achieve in a heterogenous community of free time programmers vs. a proprietary company. -
@aerilius said:
...... a common goal and leadership that simply is hard to achieve in a heterogenous community of free time programmers vs. a proprietary company.
Yes, this is the nub of the matter / problem!
I have mentioned in the past that I think SU could easily mutate into many flavors! And I would see no harm in this and the app has raw appeal to many, many disciplines.
Hey, I like conformity! Ask my friends or best my wife .... I am a stickler for having things 'look right' but I do realise that what looks 'right' to me may not look right and more importantly 'work right' for others.
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If the extension warehouse is where it's at, and where the future lies, SketchUp needs to be more iPhone like. Structural changes to core operations. Deeper hooks for 3rd parties to leverage for paid 'apps'. Faster faster faster and far more stable.
And cheaper, too.
Make should go away. SketchUp as a base drawing program could be free or cheap. LayOut a separate purchase. Trimble could then sell apps that run on top of the core. $$ for those uses, or a Spotify or Pandora like monthly service fee for ALL access. Trimble or other parties, with deep hooks into the program could develop industry specific plugin packages. Commercial architecture. Residential. Hospitality. Free form modeling. Games. CnC fabrication. Prototyping. Urban planning.
Stage and screen. Product design. Woodworking.Some tools might overlap - but the core engine would be free. And users could bundle up with specific pricing schemes how they wanted to assemble their own version for their own workflow. A la carte or for a yearly super user fee.
The current scheme is odd. In all my years of using SketchUp I've contacted support once, to swap a license from PC to Mac. Everything else I've learned here, or by watching others. What does my 95$ 'support' license give me? The home number of someone on the dev team so I can call them direct when Follow Me doesn't work as expected? Or when LayOut crashes switching pages?
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Hi Mike Lucey
,Valid points you bring up....
At the same time I see a culprit in your suggestions.
John Bacus refers to the EW as an 'app store' which to me indicates a Trimble source of income.
Do you expect Trimble to incorporate Sketchucation's 'Plugin Shop' (the word suggests intention for revenue too)?
That would make for a shop in a shop, where revenue of shop A goes to x and revenue B goes to y.
Unlikely isn't it as a business model?It is all in the naming...it is unfortunate.
Seems like Sketchucation and Trimble should get talking with eachother as to how to go about things.
Your above post suggests to me that you haven't found an open door yet with Trimble to discuss.I am sure both plugin depositories can live together in a good way, with the premise to serve a community in the best way.
Regards,
Kwistenbiebel -
@mike lucey said:
Introducing SketchUp 2013
Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:35 AM
http://sketchupdate.blogspot.com/With regard to the above, by John Bacus, I was a little perplexed on reading some of what has been stated, particularly in relation to Trimble SketchUp's 'take' on plugins (pun intended
)Yes, me too... and for me this was the funniest part:
"We’re super excited about the launch of SketchUp Pro 2013. We listened very carefully to user requests which led to some amazing new changes,..."
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All great points.
On those blog posts -- seriously, I've seen less spin-mastering from White House press conferences... it was quite impressive. If all that insane creativity would have been channeled into software coding instead, we might have had a worthwhile "update".
Best,
Jason. -
I was really hoping for some attribute extraction and scheduling. Improvements to layout are welcome but a little poultry. Maintenance money sure feels like autodesk subscription scheme...money for nothing.
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@bmike said:
LayOut a separate purchase.
Mike, I think you may never have said a truer word! I think Layout has for some time been capable of commanding a separate stand alone price.
Sadly, I feel it seems to be used to prop up SketchUp to the extent that 'focus' is being placed on it to detract from the lack of improvements in SU over the past few years.
If LayOut was a separate product under the current launch, more folks would be up in arms!
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@kwistenbiebel said:
Hi Mike Lucey
,Valid points you bring up....
At the same time I see a culprit in your suggestions.
John Bacus refers to the EW as an 'app store' which to me indicates a Trimble source of income.
Do you expect Trimble to incorporate Sketchucation's 'Plugin Shop' (the word suggests intention for revenue too)?
That would make for a shop in a shop, where revenue of shop A goes to x and revenue B goes to y.
Unlikely isn't it as a business model?It is all in the naming...it is unfortunate.
Seems like Sketchucation and Trimble should get talking with eachother as to how to go about things.
Your above post suggests to me that you haven't found an open door yet with Trimble to discuss.I am sure both plugin depositories can live together in a good way, with the premise to serve a community in the best way.
Regards,
KwistenbiebelKwist,
Culprits and Victims! Folks can figure that out for themselves.
You could well be right about your suspicions in relation to the 'App Store' being a future source of Trimble income.
I am not privy to their ultimate plans. However, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it more than likely will be a duck!As regards your question, 'Do you expect Trimble to incorporate Sketchucation's 'Plugin Shop' (the word suggests intention for revenue too)?'
SketchUcation has been and will continue to be upfront in advance about any areas we intend to monitize the site. This is self evident from what we have advised and continue to advise in our Premium Membership section and our Shop area. And currently, NO, I don't expect Trimble SketchUp to incorporate SketchUcation's Plugin Shop for various reasons.
As regards, 'Seems like Sketchucation and Trimble should get talking with eachother as to how to go about things.
Your above post suggests to me that you haven't found an open door yet with Trimble to discuss'.'Open Doors' are of not much use if there is no credible reception on the other side of the open door!
As regards, 'I am sure both plugin depositories can live together in a good way, with the premise to serve a community in the best way'.
SketchUcation has from its inception upheld as its number one priority, the best interests of its membership and will continue to do so. Without its membership SketchUcation would be a much lesser place. The SketchUcation Plugin Shop was mooted two years ago by our Administrator and we have invested considerable time and investment resources to deliver this in conjunction with a number of our plugin developers.
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