SketchUp 2013 Gripes & Bitchin' ONLY ;)

jason_maranto

Just remember, overdosing on negativity isn't particularly helpful...
Having spend many years with you in this community, it's as if you're a completely different person, compared to the one I used to know...
Usually you're far smarter than this...

Being negative is not usually my thing. I much prefer being helpful and building up, rather than tearing down. However, I've already tried making my voice heard via friendly participation in the last rounds of voting and wish-listing, as well as discussions here and elsewhere. Now I've tried being a (hopefully somewhat entertaining) pain in the butt... with the pure intention of getting attention for my issues with how things are being run.

But no matter the approach, I've always tried to participate in good faith. As other people have intimated, if I wasn't here at all then you would know how I really feel. There is some small hope left in me for SketchUp... but I'm certainly going to have to be convinced that things are different before coming back into the fold.

This gripefest only has a limited time window of opportunity -- after all they should be setting up for SketchUp 10 in twelve months... and I'd like to be able to recommend the next update.

Whatever the outcome, I can at least say I gave my best effort towards making my concerns heard, and I tried everything I could think of.

As a side note -- there was another software package I used (and taught) for a very long time, that was going down the tubes for several consecutive versions -- and I thought for sure it was done for good. But they brought on all new blood in the development dept, and started paying more attention to the user feedback, and today I am happy to say it is a totally worthwhile software once more. The same could happen with SketchUp...

Best,
Jason.

Mike Lucey

Introducing SketchUp 2013
Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:35 AM
http://sketchupdate.blogspot.com/

With regard to the above, by John Bacus, I was a little perplexed on reading some of what has been stated, particularly in relation to Trimble SketchUp's 'take' on plugins (pun intended )

I'll try to explain my reasoning.

Quote:JB
.*........ we focused on two things: building an ecosystem that makes it easier for millions of SketchUp modelers to find and use the plugins and extensions they need, .........

Extension Warehouse: A smarter approach to SketchUp plugins

Over the years, our beloved plugin developers—the folks who use our Ruby scripting tools to build add-ons for SketchUp—have created some truly amazing features. Historically, these extensions have been crazy useful, laughably affordable, and (for the most part) incredibly difficult to find. No more.

For 2013, we built a repository of extensions—an Extension Warehouse, in our parlance—that provides a one-stop shop for anyone looking to customize their copy of SketchUp. This one new feature is actually dozens (eventually hundreds) of new features, all ready and waiting for you to discover. Using the Extension Warehouse to find, install and update plugins is a simple operation. And best of all, it all happens right inside SketchUp.

When you visit the Extension Warehouse, you’ll notice it’s every bit a modern app store: most-popular lists, user reviews, download statistics, introductory videos and more. Clicking a plugin’s “Install” button takes care of just about everything that used to make Ruby scripts so cumbersome to use. No more digging around for your plugins directory. No more unpacking files and folders into precise locations in your file system. No more wondering why this can’t all be easier. Because now it is.

LayOut in SketchUp Pro 2013: More tools for turning your models into drawings.*
End Quote.

Regardless of whether or not I regard SU Make and Pro 2013 a significant step forward, I do find this announcement of achievements not accurate or at the very least misguided from a business perspective.

I thing that there may have been an 'aim' rather than 'focus' in relation to making life easier for SU users when it came to locating and loading 3rd party plugins, particularly the utility type plugins that have been incubated and hosted here on SketchUcation.

I find this particular comment very unsavory from SketchUcation's point of view! ..... 'Historically, these extensions have been crazy useful, laughably affordable, and (for the most part) incredibly difficult to find. No more'.

The plugins hosted on SketchUcation have never 'been difficult to find' once the seeker knew where to look! All that was required by Google and over the past year, Trimble SketchUp, to make life easier for SU Users in this regard was to predominantly link to SketchUcation. Efforts in this regard were sadly virtually non existent, As to why this was not done, when we now see descriptions like, 'our beloved plugin developers', being used, I fail to understand. If these developers where 'beloved', why were they not promoted over the past year and the previous 6 years?

As far as this being the situation 'no more', I don't see this in the launched SU 2013 applications! There obviously has been resistance from many of the prime ruby developers that regard SketchUcation as the 'home' of SketchUp Ruby development. The number of plugins showing on the Extension Warehouse, to me, would be an embarrassment at a little over 100 plugins when there is far in access of 600+ such plugins on the SketchUcation Plugin Store!, which, I would add is not being allowed into the Extension Warehouse!

Sensibly allowing the SketchUcation Plugin Store into the Extension Warehouse would at least immediately bring an additional 500 or so plugins the the 'millions' of SU users that TSU now wish to make life easier for when it comes to plugins!

More proper business planning and co-operation with 3rd parties should have been exercised prior to launch of Make and SU Pro 2013 because there now appears to be situation whereby SketchUp v8 could well be regarded, with SketchUcation's Plugin Store, to be quite satisfactory for requirements ...... and this is not the ideal situation for anyone wishing to see SketchUp progress to what it should be, hopefully at some future date.

Mike

Aerilius

@mike said:

situation whereby SketchUp v8 could well be regarded, with SketcHucation's Plugin Shop, to be quite satisfactory for requirements

And as for my recent experiences, SU8 has less Ruby bugs and the exactly same Ruby API features. Thus the superior platform for running plugins (if we leave the huge performance optimizations aside).

@unknownuser said:

This one new feature is actually dozens (eventually hundreds) of new features

What impresses me is this fatal dependency. They depend on us and we depend on them: We are strong in working with the API, we are able to create almost thousand plugins, but are unable to push the core of the platform forward or fork it.

We simply lack experience in the core technologies, native code, graphics pipeline and OpenGL stuff.
Calling SketchUp a platform is tough, it neither supports more than two OS (don't mention mobile) nor a near bug-free API. As an open core platform and written from scratch with modern technologies, SketchUp could give its users freedoms that other opensource software has: hardware and OS support spanning from ARM to x86 64bit, with a transparent roadmap and progress that we can influence. But it would require more expertise, a common goal and leadership that simply is hard to achieve in a heterogenous community of free time programmers vs. a proprietary company.

Mike Lucey

@aerilius said:

...... a common goal and leadership that simply is hard to achieve in a heterogenous community of free time programmers vs. a proprietary company.

Yes, this is the nub of the matter / problem!

I have mentioned in the past that I think SU could easily mutate into many flavors! And I would see no harm in this and the app has raw appeal to many, many disciplines.

Hey, I like conformity! Ask my friends or best my wife .... I am a stickler for having things 'look right' but I do realise that what looks 'right' to me may not look right and more importantly 'work right' for others.

bmike

If the extension warehouse is where it's at, and where the future lies, SketchUp needs to be more iPhone like. Structural changes to core operations. Deeper hooks for 3rd parties to leverage for paid 'apps'. Faster faster faster and far more stable.

And cheaper, too.

Make should go away. SketchUp as a base drawing program could be free or cheap. LayOut a separate purchase. Trimble could then sell apps that run on top of the core. $$ for those uses, or a Spotify or Pandora like monthly service fee for ALL access. Trimble or other parties, with deep hooks into the program could develop industry specific plugin packages. Commercial architecture. Residential. Hospitality. Free form modeling. Games. CnC fabrication. Prototyping. Urban planning.
Stage and screen. Product design. Woodworking.

Some tools might overlap - but the core engine would be free. And users could bundle up with specific pricing schemes how they wanted to assemble their own version for their own workflow. A la carte or for a yearly super user fee.

The current scheme is odd. In all my years of using SketchUp I've contacted support once, to swap a license from PC to Mac. Everything else I've learned here, or by watching others. What does my 95$ 'support' license give me? The home number of someone on the dev team so I can call them direct when Follow Me doesn't work as expected? Or when LayOut crashes switching pages?

kwistenbiebel

Hi Mike Lucey ,

Valid points you bring up....
At the same time I see a culprit in your suggestions.
John Bacus refers to the EW as an 'app store' which to me indicates a Trimble source of income.
Do you expect Trimble to incorporate Sketchucation's 'Plugin Shop' (the word suggests intention for revenue too)?
That would make for a shop in a shop, where revenue of shop A goes to x and revenue B goes to y.
Unlikely isn't it as a business model?

It is all in the naming...it is unfortunate.

Seems like Sketchucation and Trimble should get talking with eachother as to how to go about things.
Your above post suggests to me that you haven't found an open door yet with Trimble to discuss.

I am sure both plugin depositories can live together in a good way, with the premise to serve a community in the best way.

Regards,
Kwistenbiebel

numerobis

@mike lucey said:

Introducing SketchUp 2013
Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:35 AM
http://sketchupdate.blogspot.com/

With regard to the above, by John Bacus, I was a little perplexed on reading some of what has been stated, particularly in relation to Trimble SketchUp's 'take' on plugins (pun intended )

Yes, me too... and for me this was the funniest part:

"We’re super excited about the launch of SketchUp Pro 2013. We listened very carefully to user requests which led to some amazing new changes,..."

jason_maranto

All great points.

On those blog posts -- seriously, I've seen less spin-mastering from White House press conferences... it was quite impressive. If all that insane creativity would have been channeled into software coding instead, we might have had a worthwhile "update".

Best,
Jason.

ccaponigro

I was really hoping for some attribute extraction and scheduling. Improvements to layout are welcome but a little poultry. Maintenance money sure feels like autodesk subscription scheme...money for nothing.

Mike Lucey

@bmike said:

LayOut a separate purchase.

Mike, I think you may never have said a truer word! I think Layout has for some time been capable of commanding a separate stand alone price.

Sadly, I feel it seems to be used to prop up SketchUp to the extent that 'focus' is being placed on it to detract from the lack of improvements in SU over the past few years.

If LayOut was a separate product under the current launch, more folks would be up in arms!

Mike Lucey

@kwistenbiebel said:

Hi Mike Lucey ,

Valid points you bring up....
At the same time I see a culprit in your suggestions.
John Bacus refers to the EW as an 'app store' which to me indicates a Trimble source of income.
Do you expect Trimble to incorporate Sketchucation's 'Plugin Shop' (the word suggests intention for revenue too)?
That would make for a shop in a shop, where revenue of shop A goes to x and revenue B goes to y.
Unlikely isn't it as a business model?

It is all in the naming...it is unfortunate.

Seems like Sketchucation and Trimble should get talking with eachother as to how to go about things.
Your above post suggests to me that you haven't found an open door yet with Trimble to discuss.

I am sure both plugin depositories can live together in a good way, with the premise to serve a community in the best way.

Regards,
Kwistenbiebel

Kwist,

Culprits and Victims! Folks can figure that out for themselves.

You could well be right about your suspicions in relation to the 'App Store' being a future source of Trimble income.
I am not privy to their ultimate plans. However, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it more than likely will be a duck!

As regards your question, 'Do you expect Trimble to incorporate Sketchucation's 'Plugin Shop' (the word suggests intention for revenue too)?'

SketchUcation has been and will continue to be upfront in advance about any areas we intend to monitize the site. This is self evident from what we have advised and continue to advise in our Premium Membership section and our Shop area. And currently, NO, I don't expect Trimble SketchUp to incorporate SketchUcation's Plugin Shop for various reasons.

As regards, 'Seems like Sketchucation and Trimble should get talking with eachother as to how to go about things.
Your above post suggests to me that you haven't found an open door yet with Trimble to discuss'.

'Open Doors' are of not much use if there is no credible reception on the other side of the open door!

As regards, 'I am sure both plugin depositories can live together in a good way, with the premise to serve a community in the best way'.

SketchUcation has from its inception upheld as its number one priority, the best interests of its membership and will continue to do so. Without its membership SketchUcation would be a much lesser place. The SketchUcation Plugin Shop was mooted two years ago by our Administrator and we have invested considerable time and investment resources to deliver this in conjunction with a number of our plugin developers.

Box

It's worth pointing out here that it might be semantics, but here at sketchucation it's called a Plugin Store, not a shop. It is free to access, some things inside might cost money but it isn't a shop it is a place to collect everything together and store it.

Mike Lucey

Thanks Box for clarifying that. I mistakingly typed the word 'Shop' instead of 'Store'. Yes, the word 'Shop' would indicate selling. This is not the intention. Should developers wish to sell, that's their prerogative and we will try to facilitate them where we can.

Even in our actual 'Shop' (Books, Models, Textures etc) we maintain a high level of free content for all members and more so for for our valued supporting Premium Members.

kwistenbiebel

I understand totally.
The intention Sketchucation has in holding strong a beautiful community has been proven over the past years.
The prove is a lot of members being happy to be here.
A nice balance between a great service provided and some revenue coming from it, great for all of us.
Most of this community is still for free and members have choice to pay for extras if they like.

I wonder if Trimble has the same intention.
From what I read in their announcement(s), their intentions are manifested most in words, less in according action.
Yes, when Trimble tells us that they 'listen to their user base' I would expect to hear what exactly they heard from the user base and how they acted to that specifically.

A year is a short term for software development so we could continue giving the benefit of the doubt and wait longer for substance.... however , haven't we been saying that for years now coming out of the Google era?

jeff hammond

@arail1 said:

The ease of modeling in Rhino V5 would be a good example.

especially when considering it probably has 500+ more commands/tools than su.. but for whatever reason, in sketchup land, adding maybe 10 new tools/functions is going to bloat and ruin the app??

aside from that, they're really open to user feedback.. a few snippets between myself and the developers:

@unknownuser said:

**•attached is a .3dm which i'm using during this crash
•steps to reproduce:

We have known about this crash for three months and not been able to duplicate it. Thank you for the file. This will be fixed in the next release

Thank you [...] and should appear in SR2.

•some of the dialog boxes have the text cut off as it seems there is a character limit. can you adjust it please?

There was an error when calculating the width of wide radio button controls. This will be fixed in the next release.

•just an odd behavior i happened across.. not a big deal- just strange is all.[...] it's greyed out / unavailable

This will be fixed in the next release.

• _ArrayCrv feels like too many steps [...] can this be changed?

I agree [...]

•when zooming using the trackpad (preference set to ("use two fingers to pan and rotate views") .[...] . can you •change the behavior?

(release notes)

•great!
• thank you for implementing this

• so yeah, maybe down the line the [...]

Jeff's suggestion is what I think will be the right solution:
This will be implemented in the next release.

Thank you for your eloquent and spot-on post. [...] If you don't mind, I'd like to refer to your post in the future when

and that's maybe half of it
**

it's just a completely different vibe, you know? .. they want to make something awesome and don't come across as "oh.. you don't know what's best for the user-- only we do" (or whatever)

[it's not so different than the interaction you'll see around here between the & ... and it's good that way (imo)]

thomthom

@aerilius said:

And as for my recent experiences, SU8 has less Ruby bugs and the exactly same Ruby API features.

There are new Ruby API bugs in SU2013?

jolran

Frederik wrote

@unknownuser said:

I don't understand why new features a lacking (except a few in LayOut) and I certainly don't understand the completely redesigned license program...

I havent had time to follow this thread in depth, so my comment might have been said before.

I don't think it is Trimbles main priority at this stage that the program should have
bells and whistles in it. The board may not even care how the program works.
The dialog could have been like:

-"Ok everyone, there is a free version that the majority uses".
-"What?!"
-"Yes, and most people don't use Layout."
-"My GOD!! What are we gonna do about that?"
-"I know! We must update Layout and enhance it or maybe even cancel the free version!"
-"No,no. We can't take the free version away. It's suicide.."
-"Then, we put in a lot of good stuff in the PRO version!"
-"Yeah, but there are so many plugins that can enhance the free version
and as soon as we introduce a new PRO feature, some JuncleJack coder makes
a plugin that does the same or even better. Waste of time if I may say so."

-"So I take it we should not update the Ruby API?"
"Laughter........."
-"NO."

-"So what do we do?"
-"Well we can't just release a new licensing program, just like that.
People will go beserk, and it may look bad from our perspective"
-"Uhum, yes ?"
-"We release an update with whatever Sketchup team is working on. And at the same time slide in the new license agreements."
-"Hah! Excellent!"
-"Lets call it Sketchup 2013!!"
-"Yeah, that has a nice ring to it. Does that mean we have to update Sketchup every year?"
-"Probably. But that won't be a problem, ey?"
-"Ha, ha. No."
-"I've heard Autodesk has Subscription license as well."
-"Yeah, but we start with this one and see how it goes. Besides, that is meant for updates,
it's hard enough to put out new releases every year."
-"He, he. For sure."
-"OK, all settled then...."

(Disclaimer! This is written in irony fashion. In case you did not get that )

Mike Lucey

As regards giving folks (users) what they want and at the same time getting what you want, business wise!

I have learned that there are just a few simple rules to follow!

Firstly, one has to accept that the customer is ALWAYS RIGHT even when he is totally wrong! This DOES make sense if implemented properly. I'll spell it out for anyone that doesn't understand.

Take Apple for example! They take a very strict policy when it comes to giving the customer what he / she wants. In their case they actually give the customer MORE than what he / she wants which is in effect what they (Apple) want, not the customer, get it? The customer is happy as is Apple!

For a company to be 'high handed' enough to only provide what they consider is 'best' for the customer, they MUST over deliver at all times. Its the only way the customer will remain happy.

If a company is not able or prepared to over deliver, they then just deliver what the customer actually wants (and they do not) in the hope that the customer will stick with them and not move to a competitor going the 'extra mile'.

As we all know here, many of the Pro SketchUp user base has long since matured beyond vanilla SketchUp. I really cannot see the SU Dev Team's problem when it comes to having a number of SketchUp flavours! This requirement has been indicated over and over and over and over again with the numerous 'What does your SU Screen look like?' topics we have had on SketchUcation over a number of years since plugins came on stream. How long does it take for the penny to drop?

I honestly believed that the new TSU Dev Team were going down this path after listening to the opening address at 3D Base Camp last October. Maybe I am imagining things but I thought I heard said that we would not see SU 2013 until late 2013 (hinting at around Sept / Oct this year, 3DBC time) and that we could expect to see an Architectural Flavor version! I really must view the video again to see if I am imagining this! However I don't think I am. It was advised.

This obviously has not happened, what a shame a golden opportunity has been missed. One only get a single chance to make a first impression!

What was all the rush? Well, I think I may know what the rush was as do others but as I say, that for another day. I really hope that my suspicions for the rush are not fully founded but I have a funny feeling they may well be, sad, very sad in deed!

Still, there would appear to be hope yet! We (the SketchUp Community) have not totally abandoned and kicked SU to touch in favor of another app. In fact, the dissatisfaction being expressed in many threads here would indicate very high loyalty levels which again, sadly would not seem to be respected as there has been virtually no response from the TSU Team with the exception of a few of the team that are not involved in core development.

I imagine if the TSU Dev Team has done a great job and praise was being loaded out here we would have many dropping in to take bows! The measure of an individual or company is how they take the rough with the smooth!

JuanV.Soler

@mike lucey said:

Introducing SketchUp 2013
Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:35 AM
http://sketchupdate.blogspot.com/
With regard to the above, by John Bacus, I was a little perplexed on reading some of what has been stated, particularly in relation to Trimble SketchUp's 'take' on plugins (pun intended )
Mike

Thanks for sharing your feelings about it , Mike,
I do now have a better understanding of what is going on .

Mike Lucey

@jolran said:

I don't think it is Trimbles main priority at this stage that the program should have bells and whistles in it. The board may not even care how the program works.

The dialog could have been like:

-"Ok everyone,
.......
-"OK, all settled then...."

(Disclaimer! This is written in irony fashion. In case you did not get that )

Quite funny, but in fairness I don't think any such board meeting took place knowing some of the parties involved. They do have integrity from my experience, just sometimes nieve in certain areas of business but again many USA companies feel they know what is best for the World! 'The times, they are a changing' however and we are seeing more and more non USA companies coming to the fore in the tech world.

SketchUp 2013 Gripes &amp; Bitchin' ONLY ;)

SketchUp 2013 Gripes & Bitchin' ONLY ;)