A new home for SketchUp
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Professional or hobbyist, it seems a bit premature to be seeking out alternatives to SU. V8 is perfectly adequate for most purposes; and for some time to come...unless you really need NURBS, in which case you probably ought to be using something like MOI anyway. V8 will also likely get better through the efforts of the Ruby community, regardless of what happens in Boulder.
Of course it all may go pear-shaped, but given the stated aspirations coming from both sides in this marriage, the potential for SU could be tremendous. If enough R&D money was pumped into Layout, for instance, it could become the new de facto standard for CDs in the digital/handheld age. Why is that standard still reliant on hatching from the pen and paper era, when rotateable 3D detailing is possible which could offer materials or BIM information on mouseovers or r-click?
I think this is maybe why Trimble is so interested in the huge userbase; it has the leverage to make the skp file format totally ubiquitous. Being the best isn't good enough, you also have to be a household name. Remember VHS and Betamax? Betamax was decidedly better, but you just couldn't find many tapes for it.
Interestingly, Paul Morrel, the UK government's construction advisor, last year warned architects here to adopt BIM or "...be Betamaxed out."The natural consequence of being an industry standard is that you need to be that for everyone...including the likes of Frank Gehry and Zaha Hadid...and that would necessitate better built-in functionality which would benefit every user.
I personally don't expect to see much in the way of shiny new toys for a while (but happy to be proven wrong). I think the SU team will have their work cut out getting the fundamentals of integration right. I suspect it's not something that would be very easy to revisit and reverse engineer some point down the line.
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@unknownuser said:
The natural consequence of being an industry standard is that you need to be that for everyone...including the likes of Frank Gehry
I was with you until here. Gehry will find his own solutions. He certainly could make some use of an "industry standard" but we're talking different buildings, process, and resources. The other 99% should be a worthy goal.
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@alan fraser said:
I think the SU team will have their work cut out getting the fundamentals of integration right.
The hardest thing I foresee is having the engine code be compilable for the "base" SketchUp with Ruby wrappers, and also without, for other Trimble Pro products that will not have Ruby scripting (unless Trimble thinks to extend all their other products with an embedded Ruby interpreter.)
Imagining the amount of conditional statements that would need to be added to the "engine" code makes me dizzy.
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Yeah, okay, I'll grant you that Peter. Replace said example with 'Bendy stuff."
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@alan fraser said:
Professional or hobbyist, it seems a bit premature to be seeking out alternatives to SU...
I completely agree. Regarding BIMers comments, none of us can pass judgement without knowing all the background. Some companies that are bought are purchased because they are well managed and have huge upside potential. Others, while having an upside, are purchase because they have been poorly managed and as a result undervalued. They ladder group of companies, often have to go through some tough measures in a take-over. That Trimble is concerned about running a tight ship and is in a position to make aquisitions should be encouraging to some degree. I think the secret truth is Autodesk is scared of Sketchup. As a one who also uses Revit, I have had to sit through hours of Autodesk University sessions. I have been struck by 2 things. In sessions about Rendering and creating graphics that pop, it come out that improvements in the graphics within Revit, were the direct result of Sketchup's popularity Architects saying they preferred the interface & grapic quality of Sketchup. I am also struck with how AU speakers really go out of there way to not talk about Sketchup or try to speak negatively about it. I don't think you will ever see an AU session 'Integrating Revit with Sketchup (or Rhino) in you project workflow'. I find Sketchup to be a great companion to Revit. Sketchup's greatest strength is it's popularity and user base. Is it safe to say it is the Facebook of the 3d world. Google has tried to compete with an alternative to Facebook, but has largely been unsuccessful because of Facebook's popularity. In the same way, Autodesk has attempted many alternatives to compete with Sketchup; Vasari, Impression etc. None seem to me to have been very successful.
The potential of Sketchup integrating with BIM software like Archicad and Revit is enormous. Tekla is an example of a trimble company that has been sucessful at this. I am not suggesting that Sketchup becomes another BIM software, but that the workflow and translation would become seemless. Certainly Sketchup could become more BIM like, but to try to make it another BIM software would be a mistake in my opinion. As one who spends a lot of time using both Revit and Sketchup, I am glad Sketchp is not Revit. Likewise I am glad Sketchup is not Revit. Sketchup is much faster, intuitive, and iterative when it comes to the schematic design process. When it comes to visualization, for most Architects, time and and budgets are crucial on a project. Most owners don't have lots of $$$ to spend and most Architects are reluctant to blow fees on $$$ renderings. SU with a good rendering plugin delivers within those constraints more effectively.
I recently had to develop 8 design iterations of a school project that was being documented in Revit. I kicked the Revit model into Sketchup and rendered the options with Podium in a fraction of the time it would have taken me in Revit. The benefits of SU decrease the further you move away from the schematic design stage. I know some have tried to produce CD's using layout but that is nothing close to how Revit documents - Revit is bi-directional, Skethup is not. For Sketchup to become Bi-directional I think it would take considerable effort.
The strengths of Revit / BIM are in its ability for coordination across disciplines over the course of a project, provide clash detection, the speed of documentation during the Design Development and Construction Document phases, with bi-directional associativity in Revit is huge. Information richness is also a huge benefit when it comes to pricing and analysis. Revit's benefits increase the further you go into the design process and are probably least in the initial Schematic Design phase. One of the greatest strength of Sketchup is Revit's Achilles' heel: It's ease of use. The learning curve and the change implications of Revit / BIM can be almost insurmountable for a many firms. The other Achilles' heel of Revit is its price and it's lack of 3rd party API development. As others have said Sketchup's greatest strength may well be it's price and it's plug-n-play plugin platform and the community that drives it.
If this buy-out could take the best strengths of Sketchup and combine them with some of the strengths of true BIM, increasing Sketchup's effectiveness further into the design process, at a cost architects, engineers, and professionals in smaller firms, working on smaller projects, could afford - that would be amazing. As someone from an Architectural background that would be my wish. I think there is a lot of reason to be hopeful. Somoe of the 'BIM like' ruby scripts and things that Turner construction is doing with Sketchup are very encouraging.
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@bimmer said:
The real question is what was the environment like with Google? That's something none of us can answer, if it was similar then experience may be a rewarding one for the SketchUp team and positive for community.
My thoughts exactly!
@alan fraser said:
Professional or hobbyist, it seems a bit premature to be seeking out alternatives to SU. V8 is perfectly adequate for most purposes; and for some time to come...unless you really need NURBS, in which case you probably ought to be using something like MOI anyway.
...or bezier patches...
(Pre-emptive reply to Rich: Yes - I am working on it! Put the whip away!
Actually - it's a good thing to keep prodding me about it. )@jdagen said:
I don't think you will ever see an AU session 'Integrating Revit with Sketchup (or Rhino) in you project workflow'.
There is a few videos on how to import SketchUp models into both Revit and 3DsMax - they started adding support for the .skp format a couple of years ago. But - only as import though.
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This is just not right - at all ....
I have been using SketchUp for year's and I'm a huge fan - it is the best, and it was the future, until 26/4. I haven't posted much here - but it has been an absolute goldmine for me over the years as a user, and as an individual, that depends on SketchUp, I have read ALL 593 previous comments.
As many have said - SketchUp is great - but it is the community that make it what it is - not Google.
The problem is that we have seen it as an "almost open-source project" - it walks like a duck - quaks like a duck - it must be a duck.
But the painful truth is that Google made a mistake - they did not consider what is best for SketchUp, the community or the 30 mio users ...
It is obvious to all that SketchUp could not have a future with Google - it just couldn't fit into the big picture anymore - But how in God's did someone at Google come to the conclusion "Trimble is the right solution"!!!! - they might as well have sold to Autodesk - so they could arrange a decent funereal - and everybody could start prepare for life after SketchUp.I for one was glad to read BIMMER's comments - because it made me wake up and face reality.
29.9 mio none-paying customers is of no use to Trimble - what-so-ever, they paid nothing for the user's - they paid for the source code, and they got it cheep.
The source code will now transform into whatever fit into Trimble's need - and that does NOT include an API or a useful free version, if anything happens to the benefit of the 99%, it will be because it could NOT be avoided. This is just pure logic ... they have no need for a community of people with an "open source mind-set" - Im sure you can't event say the word out loud at Trimple HQ.From Trimble we have seen only a press release with exactly the mumbu-jumbo you would expect, when you don't want to say what its all about.
If you were the happy new owner of SketchUp, wouldn't you as a 1. priority make public to all you new customers what to expect, as best you could, instead of keep them hanging confused and clueless.What happened to all the other obvious possibilities Google had:
- The SketchUp foundation (ala blender)
- Selling it back to the good people at Sketchup (Google dosen't actually have liquidity problems!)
- Charging $10 or $20 for the free version to raise the money - if Google really feel they need it.
- and many other solutions (BEFORE you arrive at Trimble!!) I can't think of right now.
This cannot have been what Google really wanted - it MUST have been a mistake, there is NO reason to be evil.
Sadly, the truth properly is that Google just couldn't be asked to do the effort and find a decent solution.
They for sure didn't need the peanuts on the bank account for next month bill's.So is this a done deal? NOOO - its time for some USER-POWER ....
I would really like to why Google suddenly discontinued "Don't be evil", but it could prove difficult to the get their attention - but try this:Uninstall your chrome browser - use Firefox instead.
Use Thunderbird instead of Chrome for your Gmail.
You don't actually have to install Google Drive when it is launched - there is still Dropbox and lots of other alternatives.
If there really is 30 mio users - it should do the trickThere must 1000's and 1000's of people who build their livelihood on SketchUp. 593 comments on this thread, most negative and confused, proves the passion and need for SketchUp, as it is and evolving from a point of the 99%. Why couldn't the solution be one that made most people smile instead of tremple? Why did Google suddenly have to become evil - ignorance, lazyness? - I just don't get it.
This is just not right ... at all
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@moghouse said:
The source code will now transform into whatever fit into Trimble's need - and that does NOT include an API or a useful free version,
Now, why would they announce that they will keep a free version - and use SketchUp as an platform?
Most of the comments in this thread is speculation - the very small concrete info we have from Trimble, contradict what you claim right there. -
why be mad/boycott google over this?
if they killed sketchup then yeah, maybe..if they were still super excited about sketchup and wanted to allot more resources etc in order to further its development then they would of done so and definitely wouldnt be selling it.
I think it's safe to say this transaction isn't simply a money related thing (as in, it's highly unlikely the reason behind the sale is because google needed the money)
so google selling sketchup says a lot about how they felt a about the app and it's progression.. personally, I'm excited about it being out of their hands and into the hands of a company that's excited about it.
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@moghouse said:
But how in God's did someone at Google come to the conclusion "Trimble is the right solution"!!!! - they might as well have sold to Autodesk - so they could arrange a decent funereal - and everybody could start prepare for life after SketchUp.
I really don't think that the Google hierarchy came to the initial conclusion that SketchUp should go to Trimble. I have a feeling that paths widened over time between the SU Dev team and Google / GE as to how SU should and would be developed.
I would not be surprised to learn over time that it was the SU dev team that bartered the deal we now see advised. Its a strange enough one when you examine it closely, the first of this kind I have seen. Added to the fact that Big G doesn't sell products makes it more unusual.
I would 'speculate' that a simple Win, Win, Win deal was put in place by the SU dev team that made sense all round.
Google get what it wants in relation to GE / Advert revenue generation by way of close links with a company that can help to populate GE quickly before others get into the act and their are others looking at this revenue stream!
Trimble get what they want, a 'super glue' of an application that can be used to enhance many of their software apps and also broaden their user base not to forget the ready made community in very diverse disciplines, Worldwide, which can only further broaden their manufacturing activity.
The SU Team get what they want, 'serious' backing and freedom by a 'building tech company' to bring SU where it should be, going towards the No.1 spot!
As regards the current users, okay, I'd imagine SU Free will not continue to be developed in parallel with SU Pro. I can see it being taken in a different direction to cater more for casual users while SU Pro splits into a number of different flavours to keep professionals happy.
As regards Bimmer's thoughts on Trimble. I have been looking around the Net and located what looks to be an independent site which offers reviews on companies.
glassdoor (an inside look at jobs & companies) says that reviews are posted anonymously by employees!
You can check out the Trimble review Visit here , Its not in the Top 50 but maybe SketchUp will in some way make it a better place to work, after all not many software applications make people smile
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@mike lucey said:
As regards Bimmer's thoughts on Trimble. I have been looking around the Net and located what looks to be an independent site which offers reviews on companies.
glassdoor (an inside look at jobs & companies) says that reviews are posted anonymously by employees!
You can check out the Trimble review Visit here , Its not in the Top 50 but maybe SketchUp will in some way make it a better place to work, after all not many software applications make people smile
Ouch, so far the reading isn't promising, seems to confirm that management is heavy-handed and not good at developing/ supporting staff.
for example:
@unknownuser said:
Trimble Navigation Anonymous: (Past Employee - 2010)
“Kind of like military housing.”
Pros
Some interesting business sectors. Work schedule allows time for family. Some people have made their whole career with this company.
Cons
Old fashioned policies and procedures, below average pay, not employee focused, not much fun, not much opportunity to advance or improve yourself. Some bad bosses, some difficult people to work with, some management decisions don't make sense, some acquisitions don't make sense, they don't spend money on employees, tools, or infrastructure.
Advice to Senior Management
Many small or new companies believe their strength is their people. Trimble has lost that connection. Happy people are productive people. If you had a better reputation, you would attract better people. -
In fine...What I find disgusting is the way software and dev teams are sold today...as a disposable product...I don't need it anymore, who want to buy it ? who need it ?...I feel that all of this is only matter of money and temporary interest...and as much as I love sketchup, I hate this software market...because Companies buy a software for a specific need, not for the good of the software itself !! and that scared me more than anything...
But as I said earlier, wait and see...
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Andy,
Even in the Top 10 there is some negative comment,
Apple (Position 10)
“Fun at first, politics at the end”
Pros
You get paid high in the beginning. Coworkers are fun to work with. Get to meet a lot of interesting people in the silicon valley stores.
Cons
People hired after you get paid more and you can't discuss pay with management because you sign an agreement not to reveal your pay to other specialists. Fearless feedback is a joke. I've gone through giving fearless feedback only for no change to happen.
Advice to Senior Management
Listen to your employees when they give you fearless feedback. We know how much our coworkers make so don't belittle us with less pay. Experienced specialists should get paid more than inexperienced, not the other way around.
Google (Postion 5)
“It's becoming a place where most people are treated like servers -- interchangeable and replaceable.”
5 of 5 people found this helpfulPros
In the right Eng group, young engineers will learn a lot. The food is good. The bicycles are handy.
Cons
For more senior people, odds are, you're going to be waiting a long time for any kind of promotion. You will also be way older than most of the people you work with, and your manager may or may not understand family commitments. (Google in general does.)
Your manager may or may not care about you. If you get a good manager, great. If you get a lousy one, it may or may not get fixed in any reasonable amount of time, and it can be hard to transfer out if you're having any difficulty with your manager. I had the worst manager of my 30 year career there, and should have just quit after I figured that out.
Advice to Senior Management
Emulating the secrecy, siloing and hierarchy of Apple will not result in Google being as good at focus and product as Apple.
Google needs to encourage lightweight experimentation (in a way that 20% time doesn't really do, since it's often "120% time"). Once there are a bunch of organizations who all want to prevent you from launching quickly and easily, innovation suffers.
Even line engineers, TLMs, and lower level managers are not in fact interchangeable, and the company (or at least the Sales organization) shouldn't re-org every few months.
People get promotions based on politics and who sucks up to whom, not based on merit.
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@thomthom said:
@moghouse said:
The source code will now transform into whatever fit into Trimble's need - and that does NOT include an API or a useful free version,
Now, why would they announce that they will keep a free version - and use SketchUp as an platform?
Most of the comments in this thread is speculation - the very small concrete info we have from Trimble, contradict what you claim right there.Maybe they want to build something tha look like this:
http://youtu.be/bwT8t_CHWjg
Something that can really make Google, SketchUp, Trimble smile. 3D for everyone that use GPS, 3D, mapm, making money and fun!
Update: This is interesting point of view from GIS professional:
Planning A Rabble of Geo-Techs
April 17 2012" Dr Guy also posed the question: will the next Google Street View run capture the entire built environment in point-cloud form? This could put a lot of surveyors out of work, if the data is available, and could push through a revolution in 3d spatial planning of cities and forms. "
http://www.urbancircus.com.au/contact?id=228-newsTrimble and Google may dealing something, that's the best case I can speculate
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Glassdoor page was not available as of 20 seconds ago.
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@mitcorb said:
Glassdoor page was not available as of 20 seconds ago.
Mike's link didn't work for me either. Try http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Trimble-Navigation-Reviews-E2067.htm
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@Mike,
Moral of the story: everyone hates management
(while management is thinking: g-d engineers, it's like herding cats...) -
I can't believe mcdonalds didn't make the top 50
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@sketch3d.de said:
@findthong said:
I'm convinced that I should plan for some options, just in case.
You left out ViaCAD 2D/3D! That's a direct NURBS surface & volume modeler with new push/pull modeling, 2D drafting, SU import and all common 3D CAD interfaces (STEP, IGES, Acis SAT etc.) available under OSX & Win for pocket money.
Norbert
Looks interesting. I couldn't find a demo on their website
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Google is the bad guy here. They are the owner and if they don't want Sketchup any more, it is their responsibility to make sure it all works out good. Especially if your company motto is "Don't be evil".
It is likely the SketchUp team in Boulder have been very active in this process - but this doesn't remove the responsibility from Google's shoulders.
I agree this cannot have been a money issue - so - Be honest with yourself - does anyone really thing Trimble is the right solution - can't you think up a better scenario?The only peace of information we have been granted is the Trimble press release - 2 weeks and 600 comments later, we are still speculating.
And you know what - I guess its ALL the info we are going get - next thing we are going to hear is "There is going to be no SketchUp 9", and after saying that I really REALLY hope someone from Sketchup or Trimble will come tell me to shout-up - and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about! Really I hope.So do we roll over and play dead or do we tell Google: "Sorry guys - just not good enough - its an undo, you made the mess - try again" or can we put our support somewhere else. In this case moi3d.com seems like a good really good option to me. Or can we start an open-source project via kickstarter?
I almost joined the wagon "Ahh - it will be OK - who would want mess up all the good SketchUp things", that was until I read BIMMER and realized he is properly way closer to the truth than anyone would like admit.
2 weeks later - what do we have - a press release "Really sorry Chaps - Game over - All the best to everyone"
The only thing ANYONE commits to is that you will be able to download Sketchup 8 fra free - which in 3 years will be as useful as a windows 95 download is today. Is that good enough!!
You don't believe me? Read the press release carefully - Here it is - with my "almost" un-biased plain english translation:
Plain English translations of the Trimble press release:
SUNNYVALE, Calif., April 26, 2012—Trimble (NASDAQ: TRMB) today announced that it has entered into a definitive agreement to acquire SketchUp
, one of the most popular 3D modeling tools in the world, from Google (NASDAQ: GOOG). The transaction is expected to close in the second quarter of 2012, subject to customary closing conditions and expiration of the waiting period under the Hart-Scott-Rodino Antitrust Improvements Act. While financial terms are not being disclosed the transaction is not expected to be material to 2012 earnings per share.Translation: We make this press release because we have to by law, and we paid so little that we that it will have no influence on our profits, and therefore don't have to say how much we paid.
SketchUp is currently used by millions of users annually—ranging from architects to engineering and construction firms to building and design professionals—for designing, modeling and visualizing projects. The SketchUp product and its vision of "3D modeling for everyone" has allowed modelers worldwide, across a wide range of industries, to express design concepts easily, accurately and efficiently. Additionally, SketchUp users benefit from its extensive third-party developer community that provides industry-specific solutions for a variety of customers.
Translation: We have understood perfectly what SketchUp is all about, but we make no commitment to maintaining this vision in any way.
As part of the SketchUp platform, Trimble will also partner with Google on running and further developing SketchUp's 3D Warehouse, an online repository where users can find, share, store and collaborate on 3D models. The site enables users to create collections of models, including 3D Buildings, and share them with fellow modelers around the world. Individual models can be loaded, saved and viewed in 3D from within SketchUp or a web browser. For the foreseeable future, Google will host and operate the 3D Warehouse for Trimble and together the companies will continue to offer the same capabilities, functions and services that are offered today. The ability for users to submit 3D Buildings for potential acceptance and viewing in Google Earth will be maintained. Currently the 3D Warehouse has almost two million user-generated models.
Translation: We at Trimble have also understood perfectly what 3D warehouse is all about, but we don't want anything to do with it. Google, however, can host and operate 3D warehouse until whenever "foreseeable future" expires.
"SketchUp and the corresponding 3D Warehouse provide an important element of our long term strategy by enhancing the integration of our field presence with the wider enterprise," said Bryn Fosburgh, Trimble vice president. "Trimble has already created the de-facto standard for field data models and project management tools for our key markets. SketchUp, together with these existing capabilities, will provide a stand-alone and enterprise solution that will enable an integrated and seamless workflow to reduce rework and improve productivity for the customer. Users will be able to collect data, design, model, and collaborate on one platform. The combined capability will enhance our ability to extend our existing market applications including the cadastral, heavy civil, and building and construction industries. In addition, the SketchUp platform will enable Trimble, third-party developers and our distribution partners to efficiently develop new applications."
Translation: Sketchup is important to us and its a brilliant platform we can use to integrate our other software, so OUR customer in cadastral, heavy civil and construction can be more productive. On top of this we and our partners can use it to develop new stuff (for our customers).
"Since its inception, the SketchUp team has been committed to providing a robust, user-centric solution to its community and we look forward to engaging their talent and expertise. Beyond extending the reach of the product into Trimble's commercial markets, we are committed to continuing to provide SketchUp as a free version to millions of users. Trimble and Google will also continue to collaborate on utilizing other Google tools for Trimble's markets that, along with SketchUp, will provide our customers innovative and productive tools that transform their work," concluded Fosburgh.
Translation: We are happy that the SketchUp team is clever and engaged and we look forward to them coming working for us. We also like Google and we also look forward to using all their other tools.
We DO commit to millions of SketchUp users that they can always download SketchUp 8 for FREE."In Trimble, we found a partner that will grow SketchUp in a way that best supports the SketchUp team and our users," said Brian McClendon, Google's vice president of engineering. "While at Google, the SketchUp community grew significantly because the team put users first, and we are confident they will continue to do so at Trimble. We at Google look forward to a continued partnership with Trimble and the SketchUp team."
Translation: At Google we know that SketchUp grew because they put the users first, and we really hope Trimble will do the same.
SketchUp
As a part of Google, SketchUp's charter was to empower a worldwide community of users to create 3D models for whatever their imagination could envision. Examples range from household furniture to famous stadiums and other buildings. These users come from a variety of backgrounds, with a large part of SketchUp's user community coming from a professional architectural or engineering and construction background. As a part of Trimble, SketchUp will continue to support all of its current users through its Web site at: http://sketchup.google.com. Concurrently, the SketchUp engine will be integrated into Trimble's current solutions in its Engineering and Construction, Field Solutions and Mobile Solutions segments.
Translation: Okey, we get what SketchUp is all about, a waste number of different people using it for different things – And we promise to keep the SketchUp website up so you can always download Sketchup 8. In the future, however, the Sketchup engine will integrated into all our other software. (right ...)About Trimble
Trimble applies technology to make field and mobile workers in businesses and government significantly more productive. Solutions are focused on applications requiring position or location—including surveying, construction, agriculture, fleet and asset management, public safety and mapping. In addition to utilizing positioning technologies, such as GPS, lasers and optics, Trimble solutions may include software content specific to the needs of the user. Wireless technologies are utilized to deliver the solution to the user and to ensure a tight coupling of the field and the back office. Founded in 1978, Trimble is headquartered in Sunnyvale, Calif.Translation: At Trimble we focus on stuff that actually has nothing to do with what SketchUp is all about, and sometimes we actually include some customer specific software ….
For more information, visit: http://3md.trimble.co.
Translation: If you don't believe me – check out our website ...
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