Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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@alan fraser said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. It really is as simple as that...and it's not remotely illogical.
Firstly, if we're talking about the resurrection it must be understood that the matter relies totally on the difference in our presuppositions. As you presuppose there is no God, the resurrection is necessarily an extraordinary - even impossible - claim. As I presuppose a God does exist, such a claim isn't so extraordinary if the contextual evidence suggests that it is that God doing the resurrecting.
So what would you accept as "extraordinary proof" for a historical event such as the resurrection which can't be tested in a lab or repeated?
@unknownuser said:
Nor is it the rationalists making the unsubstantiated claims. I'll believe that the sun traverses the sky every day because of planetary motion (because that can be proven) until somebody can show me that it's actually Amun Ra giving it a lift in his chariot.
Right. So we don't simply presuppose that the 'default' position is true (whether the default is God or no God). We go where the evidence takes us - at least that's my position.
@unknownuser said:
If a theist cannot even demonstrate something as basic as the existence his god, then it follows no one in earlier times was able to do so either...
No, that absolutely does notfollow. Certainly if Jesus rose from the dead he proved the existence of God in a way I no longer can. I can give historical evidence of the event but I can't reproduce it for you.
We can't even say with complete certainty that we have a total record of all the philosophical arguments that have been made. I'm not trying to argue that some fool proof method was established and lost, but it's not logical to say that because an argument doesn't exist now, no one has ever made an argument that would fit your criteria. The 'secret' to making concrete was lost of hundreds of years after the Romans had invented it.
Nor, do I think it's even logical for you to assume that no argument even currently exits which adequately explains the existence of God. Certainly for many people those arguments do exist. Anthony Flew, for example was greatly swayed by the teleological argument. So perhaps you haven't heard all of the arguments. Or even if you have, perhaps the problem isn't with the arguments but rather with you - perhaps your standards are unreasonably high.
@unknownuser said:
What earlier knowledge of a true god? This is the biggest con-trick of all...that ancient peoples somehow had this secret, profound knowledge that somehow has been lost to us. No they didn't; it's straight out of some nonsense by Erik von Daniken. They were just like us, only more ignorant and superstitious...and some of them were deluded if not mentally ill. Let's face it, what do you think would happen today to someone who came within an inch of disembowelling his son because some voices in his head told him to do so?
As I mentioned in the case of concrete, it's not unheard of for knowledge to 'disappear.' Likewise, as cultures change and develop it's possible for their collective knowledge and stories to be adapted over time - particularly if we're talking about thousands of years, many cultural splits, and no survivable written language. You seem to have a very low view of ancient people which I don't hold to.
-Brodie
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@unknownuser said:
@alan fraser said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. It really is as simple as that...and it's not remotely illogical.
Firstly, if we're talking about the resurrection it must be understood that the matter relies totally on the difference in our presuppositions. As you presuppose there is no God, the resurrection is necessarily an extraordinary - even impossible - claim. As I presuppose a God does exist, such a claim isn't so extraordinary if the contextual evidence suggests that it is that God doing the resurrecting.
No, Brodie, sorry. You have a way with words, I'll give you that, but you're nonetheless glossing over the fact that the very nature of Alan's presuppositions and yours is vastly different. Yours are based on a leap of faith, which makes them inherently irrational. Alan's, on the other hand, have nothing to do with faith whatsoever -they're rooted in a tradition of empirical research and logical deduction. Equating both stances, at least to my mind, is intellectually dishonest.
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@unknownuser said:
Firstly, if we're talking about the resurrection it must be understood that the matter relies totally on the difference in our presuppositions
I never mentioned the resurrection. I did however notice that you earlier referred to evidence of the resurrection. There is none. There is no evidence (outside the pages of the Bible) that any Jesua Bar Joseph ever existed at all...no court records, no mention in any contemporary Jewish or Roman chronicles or records of anyone of that name travelling around the province, preaching to vast crowds, no legacy of followers resulting from those sermons...nothing at all. Most of the early christian groups were formed as a result of the later efforts of St Paul, who never even met Jesus....if he existed.
I don't presuppose anything. You keep doing this...creating some kind of equivalence where none exists. You can't presuppose the absence of something. I don't presuppose the absence of a god any more than one presupposes the absence 300 foot statue of Marilyn Monroe orbiting Alpha Centauri. It simply doesn't figure in my philosophy. That is entirely different from presupposition; only theists presuppose.
@unknownuser said:
No, that absolutely does not follow. Certainly if Jesus rose from the dead he proved the existence of God in a way I no longer can. I can give historical evidence of the event but I can't reproduce it for you.
Yes it absolutely does follow. You don't 'lose' something as profound as positive proof of god...and certainly not if that god is anything remotely worthy of the name. We're talking of an omnipotent being who takes the trouble to reveal himself, not some struggling grade teacher, striving to get her pupils to remember something as far as the next SATs.
If you can give historical evidence of the Resurrection, I'd be delighted to see it. Like I said, I don't harbour presuppositions.Concrete is a bad example. the secret was never lost, it just became scarcer for a while; but in any case, it's an irrelevant comparison.
@unknownuser said:
You seem to have a very low view of ancient people which I don't hold to.
Not in the least...just some of them. At the time of the history recorded in the scriptures, there were highly advanced cultures all over the planet. There was Egypt and Assyria, there was the Indus Valley and China. All these places had civilization, culture and writing.
You therefore have to ask yourself why on earth a god would reveal himself to a bunch of nomadic goatherders of no fixed abode and only an oral tradition of record keeping? I mean, it's so easy to lose such a revelation isn't it? How terribly convenient...just like the tablets in the Ark of the Covenant.If you have any intellectual honesty, you also have to question the relationship between the primitive Middle eastern concept of the scapegoat, a blood-sacrificial animal which could be used to absorb evil and thus remove it from society; and the concept of a blood-sacrificial man who was also a son of god that could do the same thing for sin.
I presuppose nothing, but consider everything...something that definitely cannot be said of most christians...especially in the USA...and their incredibly parochial view of religion.
EDIT: I have to say, this is getting rather boring now...especially as you seem to insist on creating an equivalence between the world view of rationalists and theists. As both Tom and i have now stated, there is no equivalence; we don't presuppose; we argue from the principle of empiricism.
It's almost as if the Age of Reason never happened. People like Cornel can be relied upon to point out that many people back then were still ardently religious. Of course they were; empirical investigation was only in its infancy and God remained the best explanation for many things. That is not the case now. There remains nothing that requires supernatural input...not even creation. That's not arrogance, that's just the way it is. Take it or leave it.
Apparently you presuppose that what you were taught in church and Sunday School is true, at least in part. I don't make any such presumption. I don't see why the beliefs of a Middle Eastern Bronze Age society should shape my life in the advanced industrial age any more than any other such society. There's good stuff in there and there's bad. I've generally found that all the good stuff can be found in just about every other society...of any religion or none.
Pretty much any religion on earth can be distilled down to "Treat others as you would like them to treat you." Atheists operate according to exactly the same rule. None of us need any deity to tell us the best way to get along; we're perfectly capable of working that out for ourselves. If we hadn't worked that out aeons before Biblical times we almost certainly wouldn't be here now.
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@alan fraser said:
If you have any intellectual honesty, you also have to question the relationship between the primitive Middle eastern concept of the scapegoat, a blood-sacrificial animal which could be used to absorb evil and thus remove it from society; and the concept of a blood-sacrificial man who was also a son of god that could do the same thing for sin.
'Alan F.', “if you have any intellectual honesty”, you have to recognize that animal blood only ‘covered’ sin, and showed symbolically to ‘Lamb of God’ who cleaned sin of the world ...!
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Meaningless sophism, Cornel, that has absolutely nothing to do with honesty, intellectual or otherwise.`It's just a riposte you think sounds good.
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@alan fraser said:
People like Cornel can be relied upon to point out that many people back then were still ardently religious. Of course they were; empirical investigation was only in its infancy and God remained the best explanation for many things.
‘Alan F.’ I am not "religious" but true believer, in real God!
My "investigations" have not been "empirical", but very laborious, systematic and scientific…
Do not explain you about me, just making some wrong assumptions...! -
Fair enough, Cornel. I apologise for putting words in your mouth...although frankly I find it unlikely that you would disagree with the fact that many more scientists were fervently religious 300 years ago than today...when the vast majority now appear to be atheist.
I am somewhat fascinated, however, as to how you can claim many years of systematic, scientific research that somehow manages to entirely avoid empiricism.The definition of Scientific Method:-
"Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning." -
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@alan fraser said:
The definition of Scientific Method:-
"Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning."'Alan F.' I referred to the broad/popular sense of term "scientific": done in an organized way, based on research, knowledge, etc. Because of that, I combined it with “laborious” and “systematic” ...
Do not speculate!Apart from this, you were totally wrong saying abaut me: “empirical investigation was only in its INFANCY and God remained the best explanation for many things.”
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Still not sure I understand. The only thing I said about you was that you would agree that many people in the 18th century were still ardently religious. Apparently you do not think that, as you are saying I was totally wrong in that assumption.
I do understand about your use of the words science and systematic, however. Your use of the word science is anything but broad and popular. The broad and popular understanding of the term is the one I gave. That is the one that is taught in schools; that is the one that actually gets stuff done. There is science and then there is metaphysics and mysticism. You are perfectly at liberty to use such methods, but please call them by their correct terms as it avoids such misunderstandings.
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Here endith the lesson - some chance
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Oooh, thanks for that.
(Anyone seen "The Perfect Home"? Totally recommend it.)
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He has an interesting way of making his point. So does this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me2H7Ja93Wg
Cheers.
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TIG posted the same link to Alain de Botton at the bottom of p. 56. Personally, I think de Botton makes some very valid points. There seems to be a basic need in mankind for the kind of order, ceremony and reinforcement that he points out that religion is actually very good at. It might be fine for the likes of Richard Dawkins to intellectualise about the nature of reality, but you can't really expect some white-haired little old granny (maybe of limited educations and who recently lost her husband) to do the same. She just wants some order, familiarity and TLC.
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Thirty-five year-old atheists with an MA want the same thing. At least this one does.
As you suggest, Dawkins' stern outlook isn't for everyone. Far from it, I think. No-one wants to be on a diet all the time - not when there's gravy, and pie, and sausage rolls. -
@unknownuser said:
No, Brodie, sorry. You have a way with words, I'll give you that,
I was tempted to stop reading at this point.
@unknownuser said:
but you're nonetheless glossing over the fact that the very nature of Alan's presuppositions and yours is vastly different. Yours are based on a leap of faith, which makes them inherently irrational. Alan's, on the other hand, have nothing to do with faith whatsoever -they're rooted in a tradition of empirical research and logical deduction. Equating both stances, at least to my mind, is intellectually dishonest.
I simply disagree. I think the commonality is that we both have a definitive position on God's existence by which we categorize ourselves. I think the person that would be outside of a discussion of faith would be something like what I might call a non-theist - someone who has simply never really thought one way or the other about God. At least where God is concerned such a person would have no faith at all. But for people like you and I, we have both collected a portion of data and determined that based on that data the best conclusion is that God does (or doesn't) exist. We both think we've come to the most logical conclusion based on the data but neither of us has complete omniscience. In effect, based on our individual knowledge and conclusions neither of us believes we have as much faith as the other person.
As a minor example, science might not know how life came to exist on earth within the relativelyshort amount of time that it did, but you have faith that it occurred naturally and perhaps someday science will discover exactly what that natural cause was.
-Brodie
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@alan fraser said:
I never mentioned the resurrection. I did however notice that you earlier referred to evidence of the resurrection. There is none. There is no evidence (outside the pages of the Bible) that any Jesua Bar Joseph ever existed at all...no court records, no mention in any contemporary Jewish or Roman chronicles or records of anyone of that name travelling around the province, preaching to vast crowds, no legacy of followers resulting from those sermons...nothing at all. Most of the early christian groups were formed as a result of the later efforts of St Paul, who never even met Jesus....if he existed.
Is that your position? That Jesus never existed?
@unknownuser said:
I don't presuppose anything. You keep doing this...creating some kind of equivalence where none exists. You can't presuppose the absence of something. I don't presuppose the absence of a god any more than one presupposes the absence 300 foot statue of Marilyn Monroe orbiting Alpha Centauri. It simply doesn't figure in my philosophy. That is entirely different from presupposition; only theists presuppose.
My post above, addressed to Tom, touches on this.
Perhaps 'presuppose' was misleading in this case. A didn't mean that in an a priori sense in this case. Perhaps I should have said that you've 'concluded' there is no God and so the resurrection is, necessarily, impossible. My point is that I think you've made up your mind before you come to the table and so ANY possibility no matter the historical unlikelihood makes more sense than resurrection.
@unknownuser said:
Yes it absolutely does follow. You don't 'lose' something as profound as positive proof of god...and certainly not if that god is anything remotely worthy of the name. We're talking of an omnipotent being who takes the trouble to reveal himself, not some struggling grade teacher, striving to get her pupils to remember something as far as the next SATs.
How do you know that you don't "'lose' something as profound as positive proof of god"? Aren't you just assuming this? I've given you an example where a completely revolutionary technology (concrete) was essentially lost for some 1300 years. My argument doesn't rely on some lost proof, but I think you're being a bit illogical here.
As for God, many people have wondered, if He exists why He hasn't made himself more apparent. We can get into that if you wish but the general idea is that God wants to be known but He doesn't force himself on people. This isn't simply a cop-out, but fits very well with what the Bible teaches us about God.
@unknownuser said:
If you can give historical evidence of the Resurrection, I'd be delighted to see it. Like I said, I don't harbour presuppositions.
I'd be happy to, perhaps we can widdle the matter down a bit though so we don't take a tangent. You've, no doubt, looked into the resurrection to some extent and reached some conclusion or explanation. Would you care to share that explanation? That might better give me a direction to go.
@unknownuser said:
Concrete is a bad example. the secret was never lost, it just became scarcer for a while; but in any case, it's an irrelevant comparison.
As an architect by training, I quite like the example actually. I've never heard the theory, though, that you're referring to. Who was it, exactly, that you suppose had this knowledge which generally is believed to have disappeared with the Roman empire?
@unknownuser said:
Not in the least...just some of them. At the time of the history recorded in the scriptures, there were highly advanced cultures all over the planet. There was Egypt and Assyria, there was the Indus Valley and China. All these places had civilization, culture and writing.
You therefore have to ask yourself why on earth a god would reveal himself to a bunch of nomadic goatherders of no fixed abode and only an oral tradition of record keeping?One certainly does need to raise that question. Similarly, when Jesus came he presumably could have at least chosen his followers to be well studied rabbis and leaders within the community and yet he chose a mixed group of fairly regular young jewish men and assorted commoners. But then throughout the Bible God is alwayspicking insignificant folks to get his purposes done. It's certainly a pattern we see over and over again.
@unknownuser said:
I mean, it's so easy to lose such a revelation isn't it? How terribly convenient...just like the tablets in the Ark of the Covenant.
I suppose if the people died out it would be easy. If there were a big catastrophe like the fall of Rome (yes I'm kicking the dead concrete horse) then it could be lost. Thankfully, that didn't happen though and I suppose God wasn't too worried about that perhaps.
@unknownuser said:
If you have any intellectual honesty, you also have to question the relationship between the primitive Middle eastern concept of the scapegoat, a blood-sacrificial animal which could be used to absorb evil and thus remove it from society; and the concept of a blood-sacrificial man who was also a son of god that could do the same thing for sin.
I think you're misunderstanding the Christian position. The idea isn't exactly that God created this cool sacrificial system with a scapegoat and lo and behold Jesus fit in there quite nicely. The idea is that the sacrificial system, including the scapegoat was sort of a 'type' or 'shadow' of what was to come. Much more could be said, but that's the jist of it.
@unknownuser said:
I presuppose nothing, but consider everything...something that definitely cannot be said of most christians...especially in the USA...and their incredibly parochial view of religion.
It sounds like I'm perhaps more of a perspectivist than you then. I think we all come at a question with our own presuppositions and biases. No one can be 'truly' and 'completely' objective in that sense. The trick to ascertaining the truth, from this frame of reference then, isn't not having presuppositions, but rather identifying what those presuppositions are in order to better deal with them. I suppose it's a bit like an alcoholic first needing to admit he is an alcoholic before addressing the problem.
@unknownuser said:
Apparently you presuppose that what you were taught in church and Sunday School is true, at least in part. I don't make any such presumption. I don't see why the beliefs of a Middle Eastern Bronze Age society should shape my life in the advanced industrial age any more than any other such society. There's good stuff in there and there's bad. I've generally found that all the good stuff can be found in just about every other society...of any religion or none.
My only predisposition towards being a theist was growing up in America. I didn't grow up going to church or sunday school. The point isn't whether or not the beliefs of an ancient society are good or bad. The reason to believe them or not is because they're true or false. If Jesus didn't exist or didn't resurrect, I don't much care how good the beliefs are or whether or not they make my life better or worse. I don't want to believe what makes my life better or easier, I want to believe what's true. In many ways my faith in Jesus makes my life neither better nor easier, but I stay faithful because it's true.
@unknownuser said:
Pretty much any religion on earth can be distilled down to "Treat others as you would like them to treat you." Atheists operate according to exactly the same rule. None of us need any deity to tell us the best way to get along; we're perfectly capable of working that out for ourselves. If we hadn't worked that out aeons before Biblical times we almost certainly wouldn't be here now.
I disagree, I think not only was it not worked out eons before biblical times, but by in large, it's not yet been worked out to this very day. Beyond that, though, I think you overestimate ancient morality. After all, it wouldn't have been necessary to suggest an 'eye for an eye' sort of morality had it not been acceptable to kill a person of lesser rank who gouged out your eye or knocked out your tooth.
-Brodie
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