Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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Let's try to understand what we're saying here.
Especially Pete, the most "mystical" among us. This "c'mon lets be real" pete...
Some Ludwig Wittgenstein's quotes.
-The world is all that is the case.
-The world is the totality of facts, not things.
-It is quite impossible for a proposition to state that it itself is true.
-The limits of my language mean the limits of my world.
-The subject does not belong to the world, but it is a limit of the world.
-Death is not an event in life: we do not live to experience death.
-The mystical is not how the world is, but that it is.
-doubt can exist only where a question exists, a question only where an answer exists, and an answer only where something can be said.
-There are, indeed, things that cannot be put into words. They make themselves manifest. They are what is mystical.
And of course...
-Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. -
And to continue with Michalis' list (and which can at least be adopted for SketchUp works too)
- Every problem has a solution. Whatever does not have a solution is not a problem.
(BTW does/will this debate have a solution?) -
The question of whether [or not] 'God' created the universe, in no way requires a sentient being to have a 'soul' [or not]...
Conversely whether [or not] a sentient being has a soul, in no way demonstrates that there is a 'God' [or not]...
They are quite separate questions and issues...Now... onto the question of a 'soul'...
As set out in my earlier post, as sentient [human] beings we all agree [I hope!] that we have an existence outside of the physical universe - in our consciousness, thoughts and memories etc - which do not reside in the physical realm at all; however, to me it's quite clear that they do need the physical universe for their very existence - so the countless hyper-complex electro-chemical interactions in our brains and our interactions with the external world are what we consider to be our 'self'. If you destroy/heavily-damaged the physical brain then the 'self' is 'gone'.
So it is possible for 'something' to exist outside of the 'real' physical universe, whilst relying on that 'real' universe for its very continuance. If you equate 'self' with the 'soul' then it means this 'soul' is not then necessarily immortal...
However, an interesting hypothesis... if you consider your 'self' as the manifestation of a computer-program-like process happening in your brain, then there is a possibility that this process could continue after death when the brain ceases to function in its usual same way - for even in decay it is still 'functioning' at some level [albeit useless for your self's continuance]...
So let's backtrack for a minute... if you have a computer programs running it consists of a complex set of instructions and interactions of data, and it all happens very quickly - nows let's suppose you have the 'rules' of that computer-program clearly set out for you, and some pencils and a wad of paper... you could replicate what the computer-program did in a second, but by longhand it might take you a week to get to the same answer. So the 'process' can run independent of the 'machinery' on which it's running. It just comes down to 'timescale' - you take a week to do it longhand, whilst a computer takes a second. The core processes that make up 'you' [aka 'self'] run on the 'processor' called your brain, and these of course give rise to your [illusion of] consciousness [aka 'of being' - existence]. If we were skilled enough we could decode that process-program, then transfer it to another 'processor' [which doesn't need to be the same type - so 'brain' could then become 'hyper-computer'], then supposedly the 'self' resulting from the process would be cloned too and it could consider 'itself' conscious/existing - of course our perception includes all kinds of interactions with our senses and bodies too, so the cloned 'self' is unlikely to consider itself to be an exact replicant of the original [at least not after after the initial shock wears off!]. The alternative processor would almost certainly run at a different speed to the original, so a single thought might take a week rather than a second [or vice versa], but that thought would still happen, and although interaction with the outside [perhaps through new sensory add-ons] would be possible these interactions would be quite different to our 'normal' experience.Now if we accept that we could [given enough time, money, effort etc] replicate a 'self/soul' onto an alternative processor then that new 'self/soul' could become effectively 'immortal' as long as there were enough physical processors made available for it to run on as time passed [until of course the universe dies of 'entropy' - but then that'd be an end to 'everything', a bit like the start was from 'nothing' the end is 'entropy'].
So let's now make another jump... If we accept that we could replicate a 'self/soul' by 'manual' means. then who's to say it doesn't happen 'naturally'. If at the moment of death [of your brain] your self/soul-processes could slip into another existence, so they are now running on an alternative low-level processor - perhaps as interactions in a 'field' [beloved by both physicists and Mr Spock] - then you would continue to 'exist' in some form, and although you might take a century to have a single thought the thought would still happen [or conversely all of your thoughts, ever, might appear to happen in an instant when viewed by us mere mortals]; however, because of the inevitable timescale issues in this alternative processing scenario 'you' could never perceive the world as it exists for us other main-brainers, let alone communicate/interact with us: although perhaps would could detect other 'independent' processes running on the same 'field' as yours and somehow interact with them... So 'consciousness' could be a process that exists at many different levels of being, it doesn't necessarily need a 'brain' - although that is the main processor that we know off it could be acted out on other processors too.
So, is your 'self/soul' a result of your 'consciousness' or vice versa, or perhaps they are manifestations of the same thing ? Either way 'you' could exist outside of your brain, but of course without your brain and all of its add-on senses etc you would be a very different 'being' - unrecognizable to us and vive versa !
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@alan fraser said:
Yes He did....in a puff of smoke.
You really like stirring things, don't you Mike?
Yep!
However the older I get the more I think about this. Like many it was ingrained into me that there is a God and an afterlife of some type. I have not ruled out the God part of it totally but I have ruled out the afterlife as outlined. As Stephen Hawkings says at the end of the documentary, this is our lot. Make the best of it and !!!
As far as I am concerned my remains will dissolve back into the Universe and form parts of other things. That is afterlife as I see it.
Then again! Mmmmmm reincarnation! Must look into that more. Does a thought, word, action have some continuing 'afterlife' once enacted?
As you say Alan, 'we' think we know far more than we actually do
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@TIG : Seems you are fan of Douglas Hofstadter and his famous
PS Can you insert some blank lines in your long texts ?
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To be honest, I don't think we know nearly as much as we think we do to be able to answer the question of whether there is a creator or whether consciousness continues after death. Probability based on current scientific knowledge says not. On the other hand, is God the standard Biblical Judaeo-Christian / Islamic model?....of course not...that's just mythology.
Given that it looks like 'reality' can't exist at all without the need for 11 dimensions, simplistic questions about the kind of creation that we can picture in our mind's eye are not of any real relevance. Statements that the universe must have been created because stuff can't just pop into existence by itself make no sense...because that's exactly what stuff does. Sub-atomic particles do it all the time. The only reason we tend to picture an atom as a tiny solar system is because our own experiences force us to think that way. The idea that the particles come and go, into and out of existence, inside a probability cloud is just too much to cope with....even though that appears to be the reality.
Personally, I'm with Descartes; it's all a dream...however real it might appear to be.
Still one of the best videos on the subject:
[flash=640,390:i8d1fp54]http://www.youtube.com/v/e8P1Y1a7-L4?version=3[/flash:i8d1fp54] -
Still one of the best videos on the subject:
Bravo and thanks for that one Alan, How about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&feature -
In the Carl Sagan video, I especially like the bit starring Jack Nicholson as The Serpent.
Excellent video BTW, Paul.
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I do believe so! Case closed(for me)!
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http://nogg.co/
And the merry go round... -
@gilles said:
who is the first, egg or chicken?
You know...in light of evolution I think the egg was first. Since birds evolved from dinosaurs and they laid eggs, it's clear who came first. If we take that further back in time and think in terms of living organism vs egg then it's clear that the "chicken" came first. Ealy primitive single celled and multicelular organisms esentially cloned themselves.
@pmiller said:
Still one of the best videos on the subject:
Bravo and thanks for that one Alan, How about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo&featureVery good and interesting talk. Much better to discuss the conundrums of the Universe than that of an imagined god.
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@mike lucey said:
The bottom line was that there was no time before the Big Bang, thus no cause, thus no God! I'm still not totally convinced but find it hard to argue with it.
Could you flesh that out a bit more for us who didn't see the program Mike?
It seems that based on Hawking's logic (I guess it was him making this argument?), there couldn't be a naturalistic'cause' but I'm not sure how it precludes a theistic cause (from a being who exists outside of time/space). It sounds like his argument proves the opposite of his conclusion. Was that explained at all in the program?
-Brodie
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The appearance of the whole universe out of 'nothing' is the inevitable result of quantum affects, that mainstream theories and experiment now support with some unanimity.
In fact if you have 'nothing' [and there's plenty of that since most of the universe is still 'nothing', as there's a lot more 'empty' space than there is solid 'stuff']... then 'somethings' are constantly appearing out of the 'nothingness', as energy and subatomic particles pop in and out of existence; usually they will disappear almost as fast as they appeared... but just occasionally they don't... and then you have the rare event when 'something' has appeared out of 'nothing'...
So it's a perfectly natural result or natural processes, even though it doesn't tie in with day to day 'common-sense' experience - but then the quantum level of things/nothing is counter-intuitive in many of its aspects !"
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@unknownuser said:
@mike lucey said:
The bottom line was that there was no time before the Big Bang, thus no cause, thus no God! I'm still not totally convinced but find it hard to argue with it.
Could you flesh that out a bit more for us who didn't see the program Mike?
It seems that based on Hawking's logic (I guess it was him making this argument?), there couldn't be a naturalistic'cause' but I'm not sure how it precludes a theistic cause (from a being who exists outside of time/space). It sounds like his argument proves the opposite of his conclusion. Was that explained at all in the program?
-Brodie
Brodie,
I'm a very simple guy and this stuff is really way over my head. I just liked the documentary's approach and the way they explained their arguments.
I suggest that you view the link above and see for yourself. In hindsight, its such a complex matter that I think our brains are probably not capable of comprehending the ultimate facts if they were laid in front of us, after all, we are only down from the trees a couple of years
Mike
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@solo said:
Ely,
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (King James version)
@unknownuser said:
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
For me things have been proved.My short life led me trough enough facts to believe in God . But for most of you these things are probably luck,destiny,karma etc .
For (most of)those who don't believe in a higher authority/Creator etc etc, we,(believers) are weak or need something to hold on because we are not though enough to retain/control our feelings but maybe that is the exact thing needed to come into relation with God .
As far as man want to be selfcentered (and here comes all the synonyms of this word ) there is no way he will realize that there is something bigger,smarter and of more importance than just his self .Please do not take this as an offense if you are not a believer ,this is just my point of view and was not intended to harm anyone in any way.
Thanks!
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@tig said:
The appearance of the whole universe out of 'nothing' is the inevitable result of quantum affects, that mainstream theories and experiment now support with some unanimity.
In fact if you have 'nothing' [and there's plenty of that since most of the universe is still 'nothing', as there's a lot more 'empty' space than there is solid 'stuff']... then 'somethings' are constantly appearing out of the 'nothingness', as energy and subatomic particles pop in and out of existence; usually they will disappear almost as fast as they appeared... but just occasionally they don't... and then you have the rare event when 'something' has appeared out of 'nothing'...
So it's a perfectly natural result or natural processes, even though it doesn't tie in with day to day 'common-sense' experience - but then the quantum level of things/nothing is counter-intuitive in many of its aspects !"
It's a stretch to extrapolate that because subatomic particles appear out of seeming nothingness into something (space is still something), it's the same as all the matter in the universe appeared out of nothing into nothing via the same mechanism.
-Brodie
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I always get caught in these conversations and I know we won't agree each other..ever . We are like two parallel lines.
It is a good thing you want to FEEL everything but " feel " is in opposition with " belief " .I doubt education excludes God ,great thinkers/genies/scientists were actually tormented about the existence of God . The more you get to know the more you see that this universe,this great place is too perfect to just exist by itself .
I have questions,I am thinking and I am asking a lot of things and still, I believe in God . I may not be of a great intellect as many of you here are but I try to do my best for everyone who is near me to be a better person and to ask himself why I am how I am .We could go on with this for ever ... but I will try to stop here .
We(myself in first case) usually say a lot and do so few .All the best!
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"Since we cannot understand what is beyond us it is reasonable not to raise questions about God's existence and his nature. The question of God is not a question of this world, not the question that human intellect can solve. It operates within Aristotelian logic and visualizes world in keeping with the principles of Euclidean space. But it is not necessary to place God somewhere in space in order to accept Him. God does not have three or any finite number of dimensions.
Since we cannot know or understand God we should simply accept or reject him on faith. Ivan (Karamazov) decides to accept God precisely because we cannot determine whether he was created by man or the other way round, what is His nature and whether He exists. It makes sense to make a leap of faith in the absence of knowledge. ("I accept God simply.")."...
@unknownuser said:
I guess life is easier to just believe in a higher power, pretty much go through life without asking, thinking, questioning.
"just believe"? On the contrary, one has to constantly act for it...
@unknownuser said:
I doubt education excludes God ,great thinkers/genies/scientists were actually tormented about the existence of God .
Of course. Even Hawkins
))...http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/3137322.Fyodor_Dostoyevsky
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