Did a God or Gods create the universe? EDITED
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Hi solo
I think the debate is God versus something else. Science is only a tool used to examine the evidence. People interpret the evidence differently, but neither side can ignore science. If I believe that God created an orderly world, i.e. 2+2=4 etc, than I have no choice but to believe what science proves.
At the end of the day, this all comes down to an opinion. I don't believe that science proves that God didn't create the world. Others do.
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@solo said:
@unknownuser said:
Remember that God created science
Good that this thread got a bit more relaxed!
@solo said:
The debate is science versus God
Personally I don't see a reason for the "versus". One could see it the way that the world of God(s/etc.) encloses the world of science, but not vice versa.
Some secrets (the forbidden region of the wave function; what is covered by the blur of Heisenberg uncertainty; beyond the borders of the universe...) will probably always be speculation and belief. What we today suppose as an approximation of a scientific "Truth" can change within few generations into something completely else. What we see as science today could be only a border case of the world (like Newton's Physics are only the limit case of Relativity with v<<c).
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Sorry, Jeff, that came out a little more tetchy than I intended...limitations of forum-speak I guess. In fact all but the first couple of lines was not intended for you at all, but directed at our resident Young Earth Creationist and Rapture advocate.
I guess we ought to draw a distinction between creationists (those who believe that God created the universe) and Creationists...those that believe in the literality of Genesis and are prepared to stand evidence on its head in order to maintain that position. I wouldn't call the former creationists at all; I'd call them mainstream christians...like all the ones I know. In fact our positions are not that different. I originally held a stance pretty much the same as your own.@dropout said:
I don't believe that science proves that God didn't create the world. Others do.
Then they'd be wrong and you'd be right. The existence of God is unfalsifiable. Science can't prove that He didn't create the universe. (I'm using universe rather than world, as I think the world itself can be demonstrated to be simply a part of the ongoing creation of the universe) The best that science can hope to achieve is to demonstrate a completely viable process that doesn't require any godly input, but it can never prove conclusively that He wasn't responsible. Nor is it concerned in doing so. It's not in the business of disproving that which can't be disproven. Any scientific tenet or theory has to be falsifiable...it's a pre-requisite. The existence of God doesn't fall into that category.
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@ ’IdahoJ’, human SOUL is not the same with human SPIRIT! Man is a tripartite being...
@ ’Alan F’. “6000 years old” refers to the MANKIND AGE, not to Earth age...
@ ’Dropout”. The world wasn’t “created in 7 24 hour days”. The same Hebrew term/word used for “day”, means “TIME PERIOD”...
Guys, I'm sorry for you...
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"Lucy" is estimated, by Evolutionist swindlers, to have lived 3.2 million years ago...
It is OK, because naive people believe any cheating... They do not appeal to Logic -
swindlers? what's to be gained by an 'evolutionist swindler?'
religion on the other hand....
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@unknownuser said:
@ ’Dropout”. The world wasn’t “created in 7 24 hour days”. The same Hebrew term/word used for “day”, means “TIME PERIOD”...
Guys, I'm sorry for you...
Didn't say it was...
Lots of well read devout Christians think it was, though.
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@unknownuser said:
"Lucy" is estimated, by Evolutionist swindlers, to have lived 3.2 million years ago...
It is OK, because naive people believe any cheating... They do not appeal to LogicCornel,
I was only going to read and not comment but I could not let your above comment go. You call yourself a Christian, right? I doubt a true Christian would call a scientist that honestly believes in his experiments to be true, a 'swindler'. Tut tut
Mike
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Check out Dr Michael Mosley's 'Anatomical clues to human evolution from fish' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13278255 Watch the short video showing the reason why we may have a philtrum (fish feature) in the middle of our upper lip ...... errrr .... maybe Cornel doesn't have one
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@mike lucey said:
Cornel,
I was only going to read and not comment but I could not let your above comment go. You call yourself a Christian, right? I doubt a true Christian would call a scientist that honestly believes in his experiments to be true, a 'swindler'. Tut tut
Mike
a swindler, at least what I think of when I hear 'swindler', is someone trying to scam some cash off someone else..
and on that note.. @cornel-- how much money would you estimate you've given to a church, spent on bibles, and other swag ('I heart god' sweatshirts etc)
churches are businesses.. you can at least agree on that, right?
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@ Mike L. I’m trussting in reliable evidences that God left to us, not in sick assumptions emanated by some dubious guys, wrongly called “scientists”. True scientists are honest and true CHRISTIANS/believers...!
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@ 'Solo'. I do not deny... Of course there are plenty of religious swindlers..., plenty of apostates, and so on...
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@unknownuser said:
@ Mike L. I’m trussting in reliable evidences that God left to us, not in sick assumptions emanated by some dubious guys, wrongly called “scientists”. True scientists are honest and true CHRISTIANS/believers...!
As a believer, I take issue with this statement.
Honesty and integrity are not the sole domain of Christians. There are many many many honest and reliable people in the world who are Atheists, Buddhists, Agnostics etc. Carbon 14 dating may give answers that you choose to disagree with or that challenge your faith. That does not mean that the person who gets the results is dishonest.
If you have an issue with the test method, the onus is on you to offer a legitimate alternative, not to slam the method.
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Jeff, churches ought not to be businesses. Some are though, and they are wrong.
A real church is a collection of Christians who choose to worship together. There are some legitimate expenses incurred, and as long as the church doesn't collect more than is needed, things are OK.
When the pastor lives in a $1M house there are issues
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@ 'Jeff' and 'Dropout', re. "churches are businesses..". I'm independent. I'm not a member of any church or religious group...
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@unknownuser said:
I think it's an odd stance as well, but I have to admit, there's a certain elegance to it.
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@unknownuser said:
@ 'Jeff' and 'Dropout', re. "churches are businesses..". I'm independent. I'm not a member of any church or religious group...
If it looks like a YEC, smells like a YEC, tastes like a YEC and argues like a YEC....then it's a YEC.
You're not the first Young Earth Creationist that I have come across that dishonestly masquerades as something else...usually an honest struggler after truth, not affiliated to any church.
It seems nothing short of remarkable to me that all such people coincidentally manage, in that struggle for truth, not only to dismiss out of hand, but positively condemn all those factors that are actually backed-up by solid evidence, preferring instead to accept only those outlandish claims that are backed by no evidence whatsoever....or by phoney or manufactured evidence, like the nonsense written about Carbon-14. -
« Le silence éternel de ces espaces infinis m'effraie. »
« The eternal silence of these infinite spaces frightens me.»
Blaise PascalBy Robert Gendler who makes photos of the Universe! Amazing site!
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so am I going to hell or not?
I mean, that's what all this is about anyway.. right?
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