UK Riots
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The police seem to be on top of this tonight and fighting back ...
[flash=800,600:22w0sm5p]http://www.youtube.com/v/OLyKniH8z9Q[/flash:22w0sm5p] -
Goonster, yes that may be so. I also understand that he was a student and that the criminal record he just earned for himself will probably do him much more harm than a short time in jail; however even the police are now expressing dismay at some of the sentences being handed out. There really does need to be a sea-change in the judicial system.
I see that a petition on the No. 10 website for all benefits to be withdrawn from convicted rioters has far surpassed any other, even though it's only been running for 24 hours. When it reaches 100,000 (which will any minute) it has to be debated in parliament. -
@alan fraser said:
(...) benefits to be withdrawn from convicted rioters (...)
That'd have no positive long-term effect whatsoever. Quite the contrary, I think.
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HM-gov's petitions web-site is overwhelmed and closed this morning!
The 'Benefits' should be replaced with an 'Offenders Allowance' [i.e. much less money] while they serve their 'sentence'...
And while we're at it... how about confiscating all of their assets/possessions [and if they are under 16 those of their parents too] - during the time they do their sentence - perhaps some 'community service' [e.g. cleaning the mess up, picking up dog-shit etc] that lasts seven days a week for many months - at all times wearing unfashionable, but distinctive 'pink' pajamas, woolly bobble-hats and wellington-boots, and also a clearly visible geolocator tag [necklets?]; plus night-time curfews while tagged, reporting to 'sign-in' etc etc - any infringements to be punished by permanent loss of their assets, allowance and custodial sentence of the same length - preferably 'in solitary'. The 'sentence' could also include compulsory 'education' in army-bootcamp style settings...These oiks will never stop until they realize that it's not in their personal interest to continue behaving like savages. We all have 'rights', and many of us also know we have 'responsibilities' towards others - they must learn that too... They can't abuse our rights without loosing theirs
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Probably, Stinkie...I'm not supporting it, merely pointing it out. People have to eat, when all is said and done.
You just beat me to it TIG. I imagined developing some sort of system in which those households responsible for criminal damage (not just in these riots, but generally) were subjected to bailiffs going in and removing non-essential goods up to a specified value. I'm thinking stuff like X-Boxes, computers, mp3 players, hi-fi systems etc. A single TV would stay; it's not just cheap entertainment, but a fairly essential source of information. If they haven't got such stuff, then community service would be in order.
I know it's a generalisation, but many of these dysfunctional families calling themselves deprived are remarkably indulgent when it comes to pandering to their kids...which is why the kids are the way they are. I saw numerous examples of this when I was a teacher...kids on free school meals wearing designer gear I couldn't afford (or more accurately was unwilling to pay) for my own kids. It sound like Daily Mail stuff, I know, but it happens.
They simply don't react to appeals for more self control...so hit them where it hurts. Auction the stuff off to pay for the cost of repairs or for restitution. -
@alan fraser said:
Auction the stuff off to pay for the cost of repairs or for restitution.
How about having them work to earn it back? The amount of money they'd have to earn wouldn't be just the retail price. Suppose an item cost them £20. Assuming they're on benefits, it would've cost the community more than that - that'd have to be factored in.
Obviously this wouldn't adress the root (or rather rhizome) of the problem. I'm seriously out of my depth here - and I suspect most politicians are too.
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all that has to be done with Love to get the proper results
i guess that is the problem, that neither both have or has ever considered that action for whatever reasons
or am i wrong ? -
Juan Love, Juan Heart
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I completely understand the outrage and disgust, but when the dust settles and order is restored, how do you fix the issues long term? All of the aforementioned strategies of punishment may give some short term satisfaction to those affected, but will not relieve the underlying causes. I fear you are too hasty to seek more severe forms of control and a tightening of noose as a way to teach a lesson to the spoiled youths, which will feel good today, but have heavier consequences in days, years and generations to come. The lid has blown off of a long time boiling pot of water. A tighter lid and hotter fire will only cause the lid to blow even harder the next time. In the U.S. we tried to do the same thing for many decades and for many decades, people suffered. Generations will be born and bred to hate your country for it's subjugation of the under privileged. Until you learn to see this as a social justice issue first, things will not change. It is easy to say this is purely criminality, when you are looking downward from a position of privilege and have never known the oppressive nature of mass desperation. Even if you feel this generation to be lost, you must find compassion in your heart for the children born into this desperate tinder box of shared insignificance. I do pray there is resolution in your country and that the long term resentments created by these riots don't turn into something a lot more carnal and bloody than some stolen sneakers and burning buildings.
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'Social Justice'
These oiks get their 'everything' from us for giving back 'nothing' in return.
They are ill-educated - and that might be partially 'our' fault - but they do have opportunities in their lives that they choose to ignore and pursue this path. There are many with very similar backgrounds and surroundings who have NOT turned out 'bad' - it is nature v. nurture - they have a predisposition to be 'twats' and there upbringing has done nothing to check it - it is parents who 'have' children - not schools, not 'society' - and they must bear the brunt of the 'raising' and if it fails, directed anger...I think the reaction of many 'ordinary' UK citizens is that for several decades we have let this 'under-class' grow - first instigated by the Conservatives' policies under Thatcher and then 'nurtured' by the Labor government.
In parallel we have adopted laws, rules and 'political-correctness' that favor the criminal's 'rights' but rarely those of the victims.
Sentencing for many crimes is a joke - the criminals aren't worried about what will happen to them and the rest of us look up to the skies in desperation.I don't know the full circumstances of 'the oik who was given 1 day jail for stealing two tee-shirts'... but let's look at it another way... He was only 'punished' for one thing - stealing two tee-shirts... BUT he was out and about during a riot - not the action of a responsible citizen; he entered previously secured premises and took things that did not belong to him and that he knew belonged to others, intending to permanently deprive them of there possessions - it is aggravated 'theft' - theft by finding, theft by burglary, or 'robbery' if the owner were present, or knowingly receiving stolen goods if someone handed them to him, shop-lifting if the store was open [it wasn't] or dozens of other offenses etc etc; then if there were others with him when he did this it was a clear conspiracy to commit trespass/robbery/burglary/theft/arson/violent-disorder/obstruction-of-the-police etc etc... conspiracy IS a serious offense perhaps worse that the thing he was charged with... Simply being a 'hoodie-twat' should be an offense punishable by law
I sometimes wonder what our CPS and Magistrates/Courts are thinking...
If someone commits multiple offenses then they get usually charged with the most serious [OR the one that is likely to 'get a result']. I say charge them with all possible offenses and let the courts decide. But then sentencing is based on the worst and everything is 'concurrent' not 'cumulative'...I think that one of the more ridiculous downgrading of offenses in the UK has been "TWOC". Taking Without the Owner's Consent. Previously if you stole a car it was 'theft'. A car is quite valuable [compared to a tee-shirt! - but maybe NOT my car
] and therefore it should attract a relatively severe punishment. Then it was downgraded, a 'theft' is when you take something intending to deprive its owner of it permanently, but if you steal a car trash it and then leave it a burnt out shell 50 miles away you can argue you haven't that intention, as they get it back [although by then they don't want it!]. So now it is a 'lesser offense' - even when it's put the owner to considerable 'inconvenience', and effectively ruined it and thereby effectively its owner does no longer has the use of it, BUT it's not been legally 'stolen' 
- craziness..........Until the UK legal system presents real deterrents, hen a whole raft of crimes like this will continue apace...
As it is the authorities will continue perusing the soft-targets [they have to reach some 'targets' after all] - like people 'criminally' putting the wrong things in their recycling bins, or trying to apprehend a burglar in their own home and being done for assault/unlawful-imprisonment etc........... Downgrading domestic-burglaries to be far less serious if no police-officer attends and a crime-number is simply given over the phone for the insurers records, just moves them off the 'serious crime statistics' but it does nothing to solve these problems.PS:
A fascist is only a liberal who has been mugged.... -
Fine sentiments Adam; the problem is that a good many of these people aren't underprivileged. Some of the first people dealt with by the courts include a student, a youth worker, a classroom assistant and a graphic designer.
As for the many youths involved, you're not underprivileged if you can go on the rampage wearing £100+ designer trainers with jacket to match and coordinate your actions via Blackberry Messenger. That's just insulting people who are genuinely underprivileged ...and not rioting.
There have been many initiatives from both the law-abiding poorer sections of the community (who suffer this kind of thing on an almost permanent basis...but it's out-of-sight, out-of-mind to most politicians), as well as from individual ethnic groups and young people in general to the tune of "Not in my name."This is a question of morality vs immorality and complete amorality.
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Seems that the social utopia of the EU has some deep, underlying problems. Social Justice is just a psychologically appealing term that really stands for wealth redistribution (take from those that have, give to those that don't). The London riots and other EU riots are a symptom what the Socialist system is all about. We will have increased frequency of class warfare as the social welfare state grows. Even in a Socialist state, there is a wealthy class and a poor class. The apparent contradiction in how that happens is interesting. Be that as it may, it is eventually doomed to problems like we are seeing.
How about a "hand up", not a "hand out"? Teach people self reliance. Teach people what it means to have to work for their property. Otherwise, they have no respect for anyone's property.
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@unknownuser said:
The London riots and other EU riots are a symptom what the Socialist system is all about. We will have increased frequency of class warfare as the social welfare state grows.
IMO this is not true. Yugoslavia was an example. Socialist system with almost no crime. The main reason for the crime is not in an individual ("natural born rioters") but in Society which is putting people in not so fair situation of being born as a slave with no chance of making life better. 100$ shirt and fancy mobile phone or PS game console doesn't make life. They are only narcotics for making it easier.
NO CHANCE is what makes people desperate...I know it, it is all around me. -
I see your point Alan. I empathize greatly for the fear being felt by the honest, hard working people of the UK, who have had many sleepless nights and have feared for the safety of their families.
David, social justice is not some code word for a socialist agenda and redistribution of wealth. It's a term for a just society. The entire concept of the EU was a large scale social experiment, in terms of it's impact on society. Some aspects were successful and some horribly unsuccessful.
Ultimately, time will tell that you can't fight fire with fire. Long term mending will have to come slowly, through a rebuild of trust, focus on social programs (youth centers, education, etc.), giving the people an outlet to voice concerns about injustice and brutality, etc.
If you take an aggressive dog into your home who has suffered on some level and who has a distrust for humans, and you want to rehabilitate that animal to live again in a domestic setting, how do you do that? Beat it into submission? Or, work with it slowly and rebuild it's sense of worth and belonging. Ultimately it takes a sense of compassion, will and patience. (I'm not calling anyone an animal by means of the analogy)
I believe in people and know that sometimes hope is all that is needed. When people have hope, they most often do the right things. At the same time, blatant criminals should be dealt with. Not just those in the streets, but those who sit in fancy offices as well.
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@earthmover said:
Long term mending will have to come slowly, through a rebuild of trust, focus on social programs (youth centers, education, etc.), giving the people an outlet to voice concerns about injustice and brutality, etc.
Yeah. It'll be a lengthy process, though - and it'll require considerable political courage. I do sincerely hope, however, that those arrested for looting, arson and what not do not get off easy.
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@srx said:
@unknownuser said:
The London riots and other EU riots are a symptom what the Socialist system is all about. We will have increased frequency of class warfare as the social welfare state grows.
IMO this is not true. Yugoslavia was an example. Socialist system with almost no crime. The main reason for the crime is not in an individual ("natural born rioters") but in Society which is putting people in not so fair situation of being born as a slave with no chance of making life better. 100$ shirt and fancy mobile phone or PS game console doesn't make life. They are only narcotics for making it easier.
NO CHANCE is what makes people desperate...I know it, it is all around me.I agree. In the US, some call it being "hood rich". Lots of gadgets and fancy clothes, but nothing more than temporary narcotics. I grew up in a predominately minority and very lower class area. I've seen the effects of people who feel discarded by the systems and the ensuing desperation through my whole life. Until you've lived within it, it's hard to understand. People just lose hope in anything long term and all of existence becomes about the temporary satisfactions. This is enough for most people to get through their day, but if the shit hits the fan, there is a bottled rage that is unleashed. A rage covered up for so long, most people didn't know they had it until the walls of the illusion crumble and rioting becomes something that makes them feel as if they've had their rebuttal. But in the end, that too is only temporary. And life will return to what it once was....until the next time.
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Earth, you don't need terms like Social Justice to have a just society. Whether you want to admit it or not, Social Justice is a planned term used by ideologues to convince the non-ideologues to accept wealth redistribution. Fortunately, there are many resisters here in the US that see through sugar coating.
Here is an interesting article, The Sun Never Sets On The British Welfare System.
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I like when people call me Earth. I think I'll legally change my name to it.
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@david. said:
Earth, you don't need terms like Social Justice to have a just society. Whether you want to admit it or not, Social Justice is a planned term used by ideologues to convince the non-ideologues to accept wealth redistribution. Fortunately, there are many resisters here in the US that see through sugar coating.
Here is an interesting article, The Sun Never Sets On The British Welfare System.
This is by and large an intelligent group. Don't ask us to accept anything written by Ann Coulter other than a suicide note.
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"Mover", I'm glad U understood, despite the lack of my ability to express thoughts in English, which you did well.
From David's link, the sentanc "We can be sure there's no danger of killing off the next Winston Churchill or Edmund Burke in these crowds." could be used as the reason for this riots. Doesn't sound good.
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